[Discussion] Power scaling in OP

arv993

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After the recent set of chapters it seems more and more evidence is pointing in the direction that admiral = yonko believed by some is false. They are close but not equal imo. Until now it’s repeated over and over again that they need the warlords to counter the yonko. Now they are hoping the SSG will be enough.

Marines have 3 admirals, a fleet admiral and some old veterans like sengoku and Garp along with the rest of their armada and yet that is not enough. Even akainu in light of all the wrongdoings of the warlords still wanted them to counter the yonko.

Any thoughts on this?
 

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Positing this only works if you're also assuming that the WG is just trying to tie with the Yonko by using the Warlords and ignoring that the Yonko's power is more than just individual. The WG using the Warlords can easily be to have an advantage over the criminals when they need it, and the dominance of the Yonko is also based on how much power they control through crews and allies. Nothing about these past few chapters have shown us that the Yonko are outside of the Admirals in an individual level.
 

arv993

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Positing this only works if you're also assuming that the WG is just trying to tie with the Yonko by using the Warlords and ignoring that the Yonko's power is more than just individual. The WG using the Warlords can easily be to have an advantage over the criminals when they need it, and the dominance of the Yonko is also based on how much power they control through crews and allies. Nothing about these past few chapters have shown us that the Yonko are outside of the Admirals in an individual level.
You say this a lot but all the chapters indicate that they want balance not an advantage. Unless the definition of balance in Japan is different, what you’re saying makes no sense. And yes they do marines technically have more top tiers and still need to hire “criminals” to counter other criminals. They were ok with ppl like doffy and crocodile just undermining their justice.

all of this indicates they are not in a position of power or control.


Oda has mentioned the “balance of powers” from his early chapters and reinforced it clearly in his latest chapters. So unless you have evidence and not your own theories etc. there is not much credibility to your points.
 
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Punk Hazard

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You say this a lot but all the chapters indicate that they want balance not an advantage.
We don't know if the Balance of the Three Powers is something the WG created, or if it's something that just happened. So to say they "want" it like it's something they desire and are trying to maintain requires more context than we have. For all we know, the WG would prefer to erase the Yonko, but can't do so because of the problems that would arise with such a task, so they settle for the balance because that's what's currently best for the world.
Unless the definition of balance in Japan is different, what you’re saying makes no sense. And yes they do marines technically have more top tiers and still need to hire “criminals” to counter other criminals. They were ok with ppl like doffy and crocodile just undermining their justice.
Clearly not, since Doffy had to hide what he was doing and had his title revoked in the end, and the system was abolished.
Oda has mentioned the “balance of powers” from his early chapters and reinforced it clearly in his latest chapters. So unless you have evidence and not your own theories etc. there is not much credibility to your points.
There isn't any on your side either though. Like I said before, we don't have context on how the Balance came to be.
 

arv993

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We don't know if the Balance of the Three Powers is something the WG created, or if it's something that just happened. So to say they "want" it like it's something they desire and are trying to maintain requires more context than we have. For all we know, the WG would prefer to erase the Yonko, but can't do so because of the problems that would arise with such a task, so they settle for the balance because that's what's currently best for the world.


Clearly not, since Doffy had to hide what he was doing and had his title revoked in the end, and the system was abolished.

There isn't any on your side either though. Like I said before, we don't have context on how the Balance came to be.
I am saying even after doffy was found out, Akainu did not want to abolish the system because they are not in a position of strength. And crocodile’s treason was found out way before. The Wg has a backup in SSg which is what they are putting their “faith” in. Again they are repeatedly shown to have the weaker hand

I mean all you are doing speculating. What I said is repeated in the manga over and over again. The WG hired the warlords, brannew literally said last chapter that they can deploy the warlords to curb the power of the yonko.

lol again with the “for all we know” all you are doing is speculating. Until proven otherwise the information we got was that yonko = warlords plus the marines.
Which means yonko are the superior faction in pure strength.

If you are going full speculation mode, we might as well make this a fanfic thread. And look up the word balance, no one is going to take your interpretation of the Wg intentions as valid points.
 
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I am saying even after doffy was found out, Akainu did not want to abolish the system because they are not in a position of strength. And crocodile’s treason was found out way before. The Wg has a backup in SSg which is what they are putting their “faith” in. Again they are repeatedly shown to have the weaker hand
OR it's better to have pirates that you can use as pawns against other pirates. A scuffle with an Emperor breaks out, those are additional forces that can be sacrificed more readily than Marines, and it's the added benefit of keeping a pirate crew from running wild. That's the idea behind the Shichibukai.

I mean all you are doing speculating. What I said is repeated in the manga over and over again. The WG hired the warlords, brannew literally said last chapter that they can deploy the warlords to curb the power of the yonko.
You're speculating that the only context behind this is "We can't beat the Yonko on our own" as opposed to the equally as likely context of "We can use them as cannon fodder and meat shields."

lol again with the “for all we know” all you are doing is speculating. Until proven otherwise the information we got was that yonko = warlords plus the marines.
Link the page where they said this instead of "Warords+Navy HQ keeps Yonko in check because HQ=Yonko otherwise"
If you are going full speculation mode, we might as well make this a fanfic thread. And look up the word balance, no one is going to take your interpretation of the Wg intentions as valid points.
You realize that balance means that Navy HQ=Warlords=Yonko? lmao Like I said before, you're speculating that the Marines are using the Warlords to tie with the Yonko, when it's just as easily using them to keep them under. The fact that the WG is accepting of the Shichibukai being abolished alone shows that they don't fear having to face them with their own power, it's just better to have pirates that you can expend taking down other pirates
 

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OR it's better to have pirates that you can use as pawns against other pirates. A scuffle with an Emperor breaks out, those are additional forces that can be sacrificed more readily than Marines, and it's the added benefit of keeping a pirate crew from running wild. That's the idea behind the Shichibukai.



You're speculating that the only context behind this is "We can't beat the Yonko on our own" as opposed to the equally as likely context of "We can use them as cannon fodder and meat shields."


Link the page where they said this instead of "Warords+Navy HQ keeps Yonko in check because HQ=Yonko otherwise"

You realize that balance means that Navy HQ=Warlords=Yonko? lmao Like I said before, you're speculating that the Marines are using the Warlords to tie with the Yonko, when it's just as easily using them to keep them under. The fact that the WG is accepting of the Shichibukai being abolished alone shows that they don't fear having to face them with their own power, it's just better to have pirates that you can expend taking down other pirates
Pawns??? lol the warlords are the ones benefitting the most and undermining the justice of the navy.

I am not speculating, brannew and garp mentioned it. But again you want to go with your interpretation

Chapter 432 is where garp literally mentioned this and so did brannew in the latest chapter. So unless you’re oda’s assistant or oda himself. Everything you are saying is pure speculation. It’s yonko = hq plus warlords until recently.

lol do you not read the manga my guy. They got a new toy called “SSG” which is what they hope will suffice for their loss of military strength. And akainu was still fearful to not let go of the warlords.

you are being delusional if you think they don’t fear the yonko, they are crapping their pants at a yonko alliance
 
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Pawns??? lol the warlords are the ones benefitting the most and undermining the justice of the navy.
Yeah, and that's why the Shichibukai failed. If you're gonna say that the Navy's intentions behind the warlords is to tie with the Yonko, then you have to look at the idea behind the Shichibukai system, not how they ended up fucking up in practice.

The IDEA behind it is what we're talking about here.

I am not speculating, brannew and garp mentioned it. But again you want to go with your interpretation
The only thing they mentioned was that the Warlords are used against the Yonko. They did not say that they're used because the Navy can't handle it themselves, as you're saying, as opposed to my argument that it's simply better to have the Warlords as an expandable force to cull their own losses.

Chapter 432 is where garp literally mentioned this and so did brannew. So unless you’re oda’s assistant or oda himself. Everything you are saying is pure speculation. It’s yonko = hq plus warlords until recently.
Then it wouldn't a balance between three powers, it'd be a balance between two of them, as that would make it simply one side equaling out the other.

lol do you not read the manga my guy. They got a new toy called “SSG” which is what they hope will suffice for their loss of military strength. And akainu was still fearful to not let go of the warlords.
Where was Akainu fearful? Opposition to letting go of the system is not the same thing as fear. Again, none of this inherently supports the idea that the Warlords were a necessity to tie with the Yonko as opposed to a tool to help maintain an advantage.

you are being delusional if you think they don’t fear the yonko, they are crapping their pants at a yonko alliance.
Why wouldn't they? A alliance within the Yonko means they have to expend resources for war, which is never a good thing. Even if it means they take them down(which they would), it can't be down without heavy losses and destruction wherever they're fighting. You're fanboying hard as hell ignoring all contexts for this one that happens to favor your wank
 

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The problem with your argument is that you're using the Marines and Yonkos as collectives to say that specific members are individually weaker. That's the equivalent of you looking at "A+B+C << D+E+F" then saying "A < D." We don't know enough about either of those variables. What we do know though is that the Marines lack an equivalent to the commanders of Yonko, and Shichibukai are generally weak(relative to Yonko). If Shichibukai obviously can't stand to Yonko, their purpose must be to stand against commanders and the other groups like Big Mom's Chess Army or Kaido's Headliners.

Marines as a collective are clearly weaker though if that's what you mean. Like I said, they don't have an equivalent to commanders. Their best case scenario is 4 admirals vs 4 yonko then Garp, Sengoku, and a ton of scrubs against 4 crews worth of commanders and special units. There's literally nothing to suggest that they were ever dominant and are trying to retain that dominance EXCEPT if you consider them using the entire Navy, which is meant to handle 4 Yonko, against a single sickly Yonko. There is proof that they were never dominant though. Just look at the fact that Yonko control half of the world.
 

arv993

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Yeah, and that's why the Shichibukai failed. If you're gonna say that the Navy's intentions behind the warlords is to tie with the Yonko, then you have to look at the idea behind the Shichibukai system, not how they ended up fucking up in practice.

The IDEA behind it is what we're talking about here.


The only thing they mentioned was that the Warlords are used against the Yonko. They did not say that they're used because the Navy can't handle it themselves, as you're saying, as opposed to my argument that it's simply better to have the Warlords as an expandable force to cull their own losses.


Then it wouldn't a balance between three powers, it'd be a balance between two of them, as that would make it simply one side equaling out the other.


Where was Akainu fearful? Opposition to letting go of the system is not the same thing as fear. Again, none of this inherently supports the idea that the Warlords were a necessity to tie with the Yonko as opposed to a tool to help maintain an advantage.


Why wouldn't they? A alliance within the Yonko means they have to expend resources for war, which is never a good thing. Even if it means they take them down(which they would), it can't be down without heavy losses and destruction wherever they're fighting. You're fanboying hard as hell ignoring all contexts for this one that happens to favor your wank
Who said all factions are equal. Two of the factions are allies. Did the warlords side with WB in the war??? Again I guess we should take your word over the author who used garp and bran new as the medium to deliver that message.

no stop with the mental gymnastics to try to justify your point. Garp literally mentioned both forces together counterbalance the yonko.

the warlords system failed not due to the lack of power but because of corruption but wasn’t replaced until the power gap was filled which is what they hope to do with SSG. akainu still opposed it but could not change the will of the kings.

the marines aren’t guaranteed any victories and even if they win they would lose to any remaining yonko since they are not a superior force compared to the combination of all the yonko.

If you still want to deny the manga and go with you”for all we know” speculations please go on reddit as they have an extensive collection of fan fiction threads you can help yourself to.
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The problem with your argument is that you're using the Marines and Yonkos as collectives to say that specific members are individually weaker. That's the equivalent of you looking at "A+B+C << D+E+F" then saying "A < D." We don't know enough about either of those variables. What we do know though is that the Marines lack an equivalent to the commanders of Yonko, and Shichibukai are generally weak(relative to Yonko). If Shichibukai obviously can't stand to Yonko, their purpose must be to stand against commanders and the other groups like Big Mom's Chess Army or Kaido's Headliners.

Marines as a collective are clearly weaker though if that's what you mean. Like I said, they don't have an equivalent to commanders. Their best case scenario is 4 admirals vs 4 yonko then Garp, Sengoku, and a ton of scrubs against 4 crews worth of commanders and special units. There's literally nothing to suggest that they were ever dominant and are trying to retain that dominance EXCEPT if you consider them using the entire Navy, which is meant to handle 4 Yonko, against a single sickly Yonko. There is proof that they were never dominant though. Just look at the fact that Yonko control half of the world.
the yonko dominance is undeniable and I agree on that. We are on agreement that yonko as a collective are the dominant force. Yes the yonko commanders are a problem but the navy has a host of vice admirals and individuals like garp which you would think would bridge the gap.
I do not think the warlords are weak, Mihawk is hyped to be a yonko level character and they have a host of strong characters like doffy, boa and weevil.

my whole point is I have not yet seen the hype for an admiral like fujitora who doesn’t even have hype near the likes of kaido and big mom. These past few chapters solidified that belief even more with the yonko hype. So as a faction admirals seem weaker by a bit but have the superior numbers. We even got more of a picture that some top tiers like prime Garp are of a different class and it seems the pirates have more of these legendary figures.
 
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Who said all factions are equal. Two of the factions are allies. Did the warlords side with WB in the war??? Again I guess we should take your word over the author who used garp and bran new as the medium to deliver that message.
Literally the only thing they said was "We use the Warlords." YOU are the one taking added context that's not there.

no stop with the mental gymnastics to try to justify your point. Garp literally mentioned both forces together counterbalance the yonko.
He actually just said they're allied against them.

the warlords system failed not due to the lack of power but because of corruption but wasn’t replaced until the power gap was filled which is what they hope to do with SSG. akainu still opposed it but could not change the will of the kings.
Yes, because why would the Marines give up an advantage? Again, this doesn't inherently mean they're using the Warlords to tie them.

the marines aren’t guaranteed any victories and even if they win they would lose to any remaining yonko since they are not a superior force to combination of all the yonko.
Yeah, they're equal.
 

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Literally the only thing they said was "We use the Warlords." YOU are the one taking added context that's not there.



He actually just said they're allied against them.


Yes, because why would the Marines give up an advantage? Again, this doesn't inherently mean they're using the Warlords to tie them.


Yeah, they're equal.

Yeah do you need a definition of ally as well? In this context that means they are working towards a common goal which is to limit the Yonko. Lol yea balance = advantage to marines. This level of fanboyism is toxic you are directly going against what the manga has stated repeatedly.


The manga(garp and brannew) disagree with your statements of the marines being at an advantage, they act together to limit the yonko, this is supported by the war against white beard. Again I come with manga feats and credible quotes from Garp and other marines and you go with speculation. There is not much else that can be said here you are either being delusional or being a troll at this point.
 
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Yeah do you need a definition of ally as well? In this context that means they are working towards a common goal which is to limit the Yonko. Lol yea balance = advantage to marines.
NO boy. Balance means three groups that are equivalent to each other. One group uses the other to maintain an advantage over the third.

The manga(garp and brannew) disagree with your statements of the marines being at an advantage, they act together to limit the yonko, this is supported by the war against white beard
Friendly reminder that the WB pirates were utterly dominated and decimated in this war, so that REALLY hurts your argument.

Again I come with manga feats and credible quotes from Garp and other marines and you go with speculation.
No, you're taking quotes and then extending them to a context that's beyond what was said. You're taking Garp and Brannew saying "We use the Warlords," and then extrapolating that into "We use them to equal them." NOTHING has shown it's not used as an advantage over them, something supported by the fact that the Marines/WG are more widespread than the Yonko are, and the Yonko still haven't been able to complete their goals.
 

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NO boy. Balance means three groups that are equivalent to each other. One group uses the other to maintain an advantage over the third.


Friendly reminder that the WB pirates were utterly dominated and decimated in this war, so that REALLY hurts your argument.


No, you're taking quotes and then extending them to a context that's beyond what was said. You're taking Garp and Brannew saying "We use the Warlords," and then extrapolating that into "We use them to equal them." NOTHING has shown it's not used as an advantage over them, something supported by the fact that the Marines/WG are more widespread than the Yonko are, and the Yonko still haven't been able to complete their goals.
Lol warped understanding of the manga seems to be your thing. All 3 groups are not equal and Garp would like to disagree with you on that.

What does wb pirates performance have to do with anything, it’s only one yonko. It’s like taking akainu and two vice admirals and make them face off against all the yonko and their commanders, is that really proving anything if they win. Wow you really thought you had a good argument there boy, just leave the analysis to people who have decent logical capabilities.

Read chapter 432, they are allied against the yonko meaning together they “counterbalance” the yonko. I mean are we communicating in the same language now? Is that really hard to understand. Garp said everything we need on this topic, you are trolling and intentionally missing the point or we just may have to chalk it up to bad reading comprehension skills.
 

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Lol warped understanding of the manga seems to be your thing. All 3 groups are not equal and Garp would like to disagree with you on that.
Well, yeah, in practice, they aren't. The purpose of the Shichibukai is to be equivalent to the two, however. This is where we go back to earlier where the INTENTION behind these things is what's being discussed.
What does wb pirates performance have to do with anything, it’s only one yonko.
You JUST tried to say that the Marineford war demonstrates your rhetoric that they use the Warlords for balance. The fact that the WB pirates were dominated in fact demonstrates my argument that the Warlords are used for advantage, something that makes way more sense given that the Marines aren't going to be looking for sportsmanlike competition with these criminals.

t’s like taking akainu and two vice admirals and make them face off against all the yonko and their commanders, is that really proving anything if they win. Wow you really thought you had a good argument there boy, just leave the analysis to people who have decent logical capabilities.
Fucking YES? If Akainu and two VA beat all of the Yonko and their commanders, that demonstrates a gap in power between Yonko and Admirals lmao holy shit y'all get worse at this every year

Read chapter 432, they are allied against the yonko meaning together they “counterbalance” the yonko.
The word and meaning "counterbalance" isn't used ONCE during that conversation. "They're allied as an advantage over the Yonko" fulfills "They're used against the Warlords" as well.
 

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Well, yeah, in practice, they aren't. The purpose of the Shichibukai is to be equivalent to the two, however. This is where we go back to earlier where the INTENTION behind these things is what's being discussed.

You JUST tried to say that the Marineford war demonstrates your rhetoric that they use the Warlords for balance. The fact that the WB pirates were dominated in fact demonstrates my argument that the Warlords are used for advantage, something that makes way more sense given that the Marines aren't going to be looking for sportsmanlike competition with these criminals.


Fucking YES? If Akainu and two VA beat all of the Yonko and their commanders, that demonstrates a gap in power between Yonko and Admirals lmao holy shit y'all get worse at this every year


The word and meaning "counterbalance" isn't used ONCE during that conversation. "They're allied as an advantage over the Yonko" fulfills "They're used against the Warlords" as well.
marineford represents who's allied with who not that one yonko = hq + warlords. that dominance means nothing especially considering the state of wb himself. i cant believe i have to explain something as basic as this.

i meant if the collective yonko beat akainu and two VA's. that wouldnt prove anything

the word "counter" is used and it is stated they are allied to limit the yonko. read the manga pls. you are clearly using fanboy goggles or going with your own twisted definitions of allies, balance and counter.
 

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marineford represents who's allied with who not that one yonko = hq + warlords. that dominance means nothing especially considering the state of wb himself. i cant believe i have to explain something as basic as this.
Nobody was debating that the HQ and Warlords were allied, so this is a pretty pathetic attempt to cover your ass.


the word "counter" is used and it is stated they are allied to limit the yonko. read the manga pls. you are clearly using fanboy goggles or going with your own twisted definitions of allies, balance and counter.
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Garp doesn't say anything about counter. He says that the Marines are allied with the Warlords against the Yonko, and that if balance between the three is broken, disorder will happen.

"The Marines, Yonko, and Warlords are all equivalent to each other. The Marines and Warlords are allied to overpower the Yonko, keeping them at bay. If the equivalence between the three is broken, and the Marines have less of an advantage over the Yonko, the world will fall into chaos as they fight back more" falls into what Garp says just as much as "The Marines+Warlords=Yonko."
 

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Nobody was debating that the HQ and Warlords were allied, so this is a pretty pathetic attempt to cover your ass.




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Garp doesn't say anything about counter. He says that the Marines are allied with the Warlords against the Yonko, and that if balance between the three is broken, disorder will happen.

"The Marines, Yonko, and Warlords are all equivalent to each other. The Marines and Warlords are allied to overpower the Yonko, keeping them at bay. If the equivalence between the three is broken, and the Marines have less of an advantage over the Yonko, the world will fall into chaos as they fight back more" falls into what Garp says just as much as "The Marines+Warlords=Yonko."
i never said that one yonko = hq + warlords. my statement: " they act together to limit the yonko, this is supported by the war against white beard"
but what you took was that me trying highlight wb pirates' performance. LMAOOO nice atleast you are consistently misinterpreting things its not a one-off thing.

But anyways yea deflect more if you want you have no grounds for any solid argument here anyway.

lmao can you not read? "the navy and the warlords of the sea are allied against the four pirates" balance doesn't mean 1 =1=1 it can also 1 + 1 = 2. which is the case here boy.

they are not equivalent one bit that is not what's being conveyed there.

its called balance not advantage. where tf is he talking about advantage.

lol overpower?? what a reach dude your line of thinking makes no sense.
 
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lol can you not read? "the navy and the warlords of the sea are allied against the four pirates" balance doesn't mean 1 =1=1 it can also 1 + 1 = 2. which is the case here boy.
And being allied against the Yonko can mean taking a balance of 1=1=1 and using it to establish 1+1>1.

It's up to YOU to prove that this is being done to maintain equality and not advantage because the statement "there's a balance between the three" and "Two are allied against one" is STILL consistent with the idea that they're allied as an advantage over the Yonko.

they are not equivalent one bit that is not what's being conveyed there.
The problem here is you're using that the Warlords aren't equivalent in PRACTICE to argue that the IDEA wasn't for them to be equivalent.
 

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And being allied against the Yonko can mean taking a balance of 1=1=1 and using it to establish 1+1>1.

It's up to YOU to prove that this is being done to maintain equality and not advantage because the statement "there's a balance between the three" and "Two are allied against one" is STILL consistent with the idea that they're allied as an advantage over the Yonko.


The problem here is you're using that the Warlords aren't equivalent in PRACTICE to argue that the IDEA wasn't for them to be equivalent.
the balance is them allied = the yonko that is the balance garp literally said in the manga, you have to find the proof otherwise boy. he didnt say they are all equal.

there is no use of the word advantage, he said balance.

no i am literally going by what garp said and what was reinforced by brannew, i mean you again have no ground for an argument you are going with your own warped interpretation of balance which i cant help you with.
 
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