[Discussion] Did Zoro and Sanji's roles switch (not in terms of crew status)

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

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So I was talking to my friend and we were discussing Sanji's hard time in the new world. We both came to the conclusion that Zoro and Sanji's roles sort have switched. Pre time skip Luffy would have fight the strongest (still true) Zoro the second and Sanji the third. Ever since after fishmen island It seems to be different now for some odd reason.

For example

Punk hazard
Sanji's fights vergo (2nd strongest) (who now that I think about it might have been the strongest antagonist there however I can see Caesar beating him if he played his cards right)

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Whereas Zoro fights Monet (3rd strongest)

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In dressrosa

Sanji fights Doflamingo (2nd strongest after Admiral Fujitoria)

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Whereas Zoro fights Pica (3rd strongest as far as enemies to strawhats on dressrosa goes)

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Now I know this is going to change back into the old formula especially at wano though there are a lot of variables to factor in with this arc. You have Kaido with his deck of cards (jack queen king etc), Kizaru and whoever he may bring with him (if he does), and Big mom who seems to be breaking the fourth wall after being mad about not getting a proper fight. Then you have the Shogon ( not to mention f***ing time travel!!!!!). Then you also have close to half of the supernova there sprinkeled on both sides lol.

But yeah why do you think Oda did this? Also another thing to point out. Sanji has not had a 1v1 full fight since pre time skip and Zoro hasn't even shown a ounce of what he's truly capable of. What do you think Oda has in store for them? Comment down below. Tell me what you think!!!!

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[Skull Knight]

why stop at 2nd strongest. He ko'd BM(strongest) while Luffy was fighting Katakuri(2nd strongest).
I guess luffy and Sanji's role also switched

 

[Caliburn]

Oda indeed started to break the recurrent pre-time skip patterns, but really not in the way you're describing them and certainly not having Sanji and Zoro swap.

Sanji had encounters with DD and Vergo, but he didn't beat either of them. In fact his encounter with DD could barely be called a skirmish and it has been a while since I read Punk Hazard, but I'm certain it were Law and Smoker who dealt with Vergo, not Sanji. Also just having short bouts are a different matter than the 'final battles' which make the actual pattern.

Punk Hazard and Dresrossa were by default already unusual as they were strongly connected arcs. Fujitora then wasn't an antagonist, but a third involved party that wasn't an enemy nor an ally and putting aside that assuming Fujitora is stronger DD (a highly debatable claim), DD was the prime enemy here. And it was Luffy who beat DD, while Zoro beat Pica, DD's strongest lieutenant. With other words here the pre-time skip pattern was very well confirmed. Fujitora was never a relevant factor and the pattern never involved just having temporary skirmishes.

 

[Skull Knight]

lol the OP claimed Sanji fought Doffy(2nd strongest) but he forgot Zoro also had a small skirmish with Fujitora(Strongest) in Dressrosa

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Oda indeed started to break the recurrent pre-time skip patterns, but really not in the way you're describing them and certainly not having Sanji and Zoro swap.

Sanji had encounters with DD and Vergo, but he didn't beat either of them. In fact his encounter with DD could barely be called a skirmish and it has been a while since I read Punk Hazard, but I'm certain it were Law and Smoker who dealt with Vergo, not Sanji. Also just having short bouts are a different matter than the 'final battles' which make the actual pattern.

Punk Hazard and Dresrossa were by default already unusual as they were strongly connected arcs. Fujitora then wasn't an antagonist, but a third involved party that wasn't an enemy nor an ally and putting aside that assuming Fujitora is stronger DD (a highly debatable claim), DD was the prime enemy here. And it was Luffy who beat DD, while Zoro beat Pica, DD's strongest lieutenant. With other words here the pre-time skip pattern was very well confirmed. Fujitora was never a relevant factor and the pattern never involved just having temporary skirmishes.

I never said he defeated them and at the end I even said he hasn't had a proper 1v1 fight since fishman island.

But bro why do you think think oda is doing this? My guess is to stray away from standard shoenen formula because everything that happens from here on out will have (crazy) amout of variables and it's not as cut and dry. There are going to be a lot of team work fights etc. I believe he's going the togashi hxh route

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2018

lol the OP claimed Sanji fought Doffy(2nd strongest) but he forgot Zoro also had a small skirmish with Fujitora(Strongest) in Dressrosa

I mean Sanji's I felt was longer then the thing with Zoro's skirmish. It was like a two move exchange (kind of like Sabo vs fuji thought theirs was longer but off paneled kind of like law vs fuji and doffy at the same time). I your understanding the point of the thread.. it's not a Zoro vs Sanji thread... Its a thread based off of perspective (from writing standpoint)

Also the anime had sanji fight with Doffy seem way longer now that I remember it.

Why do you think Oda did this?

Also why do you think Fuji vs Doffy is debatable. I'm a Doffy fanboy and even I know the difference between the two. I have never seen anyone say otherwise

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2018

why stop at 2nd strongest. He ko'd BM(strongest) while Luffy was fighting Katakuri(2nd strongest).
I guess luffy and Sanji's role also switched

Lol as I said in the main part of the thread Sanji has yet to have a 1v1 fight that was a full fight

 

[Caliburn]

I never said he defeated them and at the end I even said he hasn't had a proper 1v1 fight since fishman island.

But bro why do you think think oda is doing this? My guess is to stray away from standard shoenen formula because everything that happens from here on out will have (crazy) amout of variables and it's not as cut and dry. There are going to be a lot of team work fights etc. I believe he's going the togashi hxh route

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2018

I mean Sanji's I felt was longer then the thing with Zoro's skirmish. It was like a two move exchange (kind of like Sabo vs fuji thought theirs was longer but off paneled kind of like law vs fuji and doffy at the same time). I your understanding the point of the thread.. it's not a Zoro vs Sanji thread... Its a thread based off of perspective (from writing standpoint)

Also the anime had sanji fight with Doffy seem way longer now that I remember it.

Why do you think Oda did this?

Also why do you think Fuji vs Doffy is debatable. I'm a Doffy fanboy and even I know the difference between the two. I have never seen anyone say otherwise

Post automatically merged: Nov 3, 2018

Lol as I said in the main part of the thread Sanji has yet to have a 1v1 fight that was a full fight

That was exactly my point. If he didn't beat them, it's not relevant to this topic as you're using certain elements to say that patterns changed, while those elements were never part of the patterns to begin with. You can't really say Zoro swapped with Sanji when that pattern was that Zoro beat the 2nd strongest antagonist and Sanji didn't do the same thing.

And the explanation seems simply that the story is far more complex now. Originally we just followed the adventures of a rookie crew, but the further the story progresses, the more these isolated adventures became part of a bigger story involving multiple plot lines and characters that converge and cross each other. If Oda would stick to the same formula, it would shatter the illusion that the main characters are merely part of a wider world instead of being the center of it.

 

[Love Cook]

I think it's not as much as a role switch, it's more Oda struggling to fit them in. One of One Piece and Oda's best features is the world building. Before the time skip everyone was hyped for the things to come. Now we're in the 'later' part of the story and there are 10 Strawhats who need their share of the limelight. Oda solved this by splitting the crew up multiple times. Is that really a solution when that means you don't see a certain character for 2 years ?

Other problem is that upon entering the New World we had 0 information about the 4 yonkou. New marines, new shichibukai, had to catch-up with 11 Supernova and their crew. On top of that got introduced to more supernova's. Every island has their own heroes and villains among the common people for some backstory.

That all leads to massive arcs taking up 2 years and very small roles for everyone involved except for Luffy and the main character of the arc.

Don't get me wrong I love One Piece and the story is amazing and it deserves every bit of hype that has been built up pre-skip. I also miss the arcs where 5 Strawhats marched to a villain with 3 henchmen. Wrap an arc up in 50 chapters and screw around on the ship.

Let's review: Are Franky and Robin still alive ? What has been their relevance from Fishman island to now ? Chopper has like 13 forms but he is always stuck in Kung-fu point. Where has the chopper gone who strategically won his fights by switching between his points (Wapol, Mrs. Merrychristmas, Kumadori). Haven't seen Usopp tinkering in forever. Sanji only has get hit in the face mode and instantly starting with diable jambe, there is no overdrive anymore to win a fight, also big finishers moves like anti-manner kick course and mouton shot belong to the past. Hopefully the Raid Suit will be that overdrive. Zoro used to have a whole arsenal of food pun slices, demon slices, animal themed slices. My favorite move is ichi gorilla ni gorilla, or the one where he spins in a ball and slashes in a pattern that resemble crow's feet. Now he only has straight forward generic slashes.

Tl;dr the creativity and the complexity of the Strawhats is suffering under the enormous world Oda has set-up for himself. Because we don't just have to deal with the main crew, but also the Supernova of the month and his crew, the yonkou of the year with 40 man crew and helper alliance crew (samurai, mink, fishman, coliseum people.) It's a great story, but at the cost of the SH's who turn into gimmicks. Chopper the cute pet, Sanji the perv, Usopp the coward etc. Luckily Sanji had a huge arc to build some character development, but Oda won't be able to do that 9 more times. Let's hope Oda finds a way to give his main cast some more depth.

 

[Shanks]

I think it's not as much as a role switch, it's more Oda struggling to fit them in. One of One Piece and Oda's best features is the world building. Before the time skip everyone was hyped for the things to come. Now we're in the 'later' part of the story and there are 10 Strawhats who need their share of the limelight. Oda solved this by splitting the crew up multiple times. Is that really a solution when that means you don't see a certain character for 2 years ?

Other problem is that upon entering the New World we had 0 information about the 4 yonkou. New marines, new shichibukai, had to catch-up with 11 Supernova and their crew. On top of that got introduced to more supernova's. Every island has their own heroes and villains among the common people for some backstory.

That all leads to massive arcs taking up 2 years and very small roles for everyone involved except for Luffy and the main character of the arc.

Don't get me wrong I love One Piece and the story is amazing and it deserves every bit of hype that has been built up pre-skip. I also miss the arcs where 5 Strawhats marched to a villain with 3 henchmen. Wrap an arc up in 50 chapters and screw around on the ship.

Let's review: Are Franky and Robin still alive ? What has been their relevance from Fishman island to now ? Chopper has like 13 forms but he is always stuck in Kung-fu point. Where has the chopper gone who strategically won his fights by switching between his points (Wapol, Mrs. Merrychristmas, Kumadori). Haven't seen Usopp tinkering in forever. Sanji only has get hit in the face mode and instantly starting with diable jambe, there is no overdrive anymore to win a fight, also big finishers moves like anti-manner kick course and mouton shot belong to the past. Hopefully the Raid Suit will be that overdrive. Zoro used to have a whole arsenal of food pun slices, demon slices, animal themed slices. My favorite move is ichi gorilla ni gorilla, or the one where he spins in a ball and slashes in a pattern that resemble crow's feet. Now he only has straight forward generic slashes.

Tl;dr the creativity and the complexity of the Strawhats is suffering under the enormous world Oda has set-up for himself. Because we don't just have to deal with the main crew, but also the Supernova of the month and his crew, the yonkou of the year with 40 man crew and helper alliance crew (samurai, mink, fishman, coliseum people.) It's a great story, but at the cost of the SH's who turn into gimmicks. Chopper the cute pet, Sanji the perv, Usopp the coward etc. Luckily Sanji had a huge arc to build some character development, but Oda won't be able to do that 9 more times. Let's hope Oda finds a way to give his main cast some more depth.

I agree to all of your points oda has great creativity regarding to storytelling. If i read it as a novel oda is more of GRRM likes to explore around the world and decribes things in detail. This is why i end up still loving one piece because of the creativity of storytelling.

Setting aside with cons especially with regarding to power levels oda had muddled up especially with wci arc where sanji was hyped up well he was the technically most important in the story telling.

Oda here forgot to explore sanjis fighting abilities but he has improved the emotional and depth of storyline how powerful big mom truly was and her desire for assasinating vinsmoke took up major focus.

Most manga reader especially those who like power level combo trashed sanji because he didnt do anything (which whole point was wrong). However wci was fine arc regards to plottwist regarding pudding, big moms assasination attempt.

Now why i think wano will be test for oda because he needs to keep both storyline and powerup level on same phase.

Kaido annd his henchmen are potrayed much powerful than big mom pirates. This arc will be purely power level based story arc and oda can no longer hide behind it.

He has hyped kaido 100 times so expectation and presdure on oda sensei will be tremendous.

 

[Love Cook]

I agree to all of your points oda has great creativity regarding to storytelling. If i read it as a novel oda is more of GRRM likes to explore around the world and decribes things in detail. This is why i end up still loving one piece because of the creativity of storytelling.

Setting aside with cons especially with regarding to power levels oda had muddled up especially with wci arc where sanji was hyped up well he was the technically most important in the story telling.

Oda here forgot to explore sanjis fighting abilities but he has improved the emotional and depth of storyline how powerful big mom truly was and her desire for assasinating vinsmoke took up major focus.

Most manga reader especially those who like power level combo trashed sanji because he didnt do anything (which whole point was wrong). However wci was fine arc regards to plottwist regarding pudding, big moms assasination attempt.

Now why i think wano will be test for oda because he needs to keep both storyline and powerup level on same phase.

Kaido annd his henchmen are potrayed much powerful than big mom pirates. This arc will be purely power level based story arc and oda can no longer hide behind it.

He has hyped kaido 100 times so expectation and presdure on oda sensei will be tremendous.

Good post, I wonder if Oda has learned of the pit traps or if he's stuck on a set path already. I hope Wano will be better in terms doing the SH's justice.

 

[Shanks]

Good post, I wonder if Oda has learned of the pit traps or if he's stuck on a set path already. I hope Wano will be better in terms doing the SH's justice.

I believe in him , i prefer his pre timeskip storylines and most of the SH had great development.

The post time skip is mainly about yonkos so this took the time. I dont really blame him for it. He just keep adding new characters he loves to work on their development and progress.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

I think it's not as much as a role switch, it's more Oda struggling to fit them in. One of One Piece and Oda's best features is the world building. Before the time skip everyone was hyped for the things to come. Now we're in the 'later' part of the story and there are 10 Strawhats who need their share of the limelight. Oda solved this by splitting the crew up multiple times. Is that really a solution when that means you don't see a certain character for 2 years ?

Other problem is that upon entering the New World we had 0 information about the 4 yonkou. New marines, new shichibukai, had to catch-up with 11 Supernova and their crew. On top of that got introduced to more supernova's. Every island has their own heroes and villains among the common people for some backstory.

That all leads to massive arcs taking up 2 years and very small roles for everyone involved except for Luffy and the main character of the arc.

Don't get me wrong I love One Piece and the story is amazing and it deserves every bit of hype that has been built up pre-skip. I also miss the arcs where 5 Strawhats marched to a villain with 3 henchmen. Wrap an arc up in 50 chapters and screw around on the ship.

Let's review: Are Franky and Robin still alive ? What has been their relevance from Fishman island to now ? Chopper has like 13 forms but he is always stuck in Kung-fu point. Where has the chopper gone who strategically won his fights by switching between his points (Wapol, Mrs. Merrychristmas, Kumadori). Haven't seen Usopp tinkering in forever. Sanji only has get hit in the face mode and instantly starting with diable jambe, there is no overdrive anymore to win a fight, also big finishers moves like anti-manner kick course and mouton shot belong to the past. Hopefully the Raid Suit will be that overdrive. Zoro used to have a whole arsenal of food pun slices, demon slices, animal themed slices. My favorite move is ichi gorilla ni gorilla, or the one where he spins in a ball and slashes in a pattern that resemble crow's feet. Now he only has straight forward generic slashes.

Tl;dr the creativity and the complexity of the Strawhats is suffering under the enormous world Oda has set-up for himself. Because we don't just have to deal with the main crew, but also the Supernova of the month and his crew, the yonkou of the year with 40 man crew and helper alliance crew (samurai, mink, fishman, coliseum people.) It's a great story, but at the cost of the SH's who turn into gimmicks. Chopper the cute pet, Sanji the perv, Usopp the coward etc. Luckily Sanji had a huge arc to build some character development, but Oda won't be able to do that 9 more times. Let's hope Oda finds a way to give his main cast some more depth.

Holly shit you really nailed it on the head. Please make a thread about this

 

[Love Cook]

Holly shit you really nailed it on the head. Please make a thread about this

Well I basically said all there is to it in my opinion. If others want to add to it like Shanks did. this is probably as good as place as any.

 

[Skull Knight]

Problem is different. One piece universe is vast. There are tonnes of chara

I believe in him , i prefer his pre timeskip storylines and most of the SH had great development.

The post time skip is mainly about yonkos so this took the time. I dont really blame him for it. He just keep adding new characters he loves to work on their development and progress.

Thing is One piece universe is vast. And there are lots of characters which are unique in there own way.
I mean we all will like to know more about charaters like kuzan, shanks, kid, kaido but oda is trying to give more panel time to guys like Streusen or senor pink(not that its bad but seriously arcs are now becoming 100 some chapters n we are unable to see half of the crew for like 2-3 years).
Also Oda's pacing of certain arcs like Dressrosa where he kept on dragging made people really mad. Even tho Doffy was one of the best villain post TS. But when u read the arc again you will question yourself was that neccessary? I mean Oda could have finished Doffy fight before Luffy running out of G4. He could have simply used kkg and finished the fight. The G4 limit can be shown in Cracker's fight.

Roles never really reversed as we all agree Zoro is the 2nd strongest guy in SHs crew and Jinbei and Sanji are 3rd/ 4th strongest.
But lack of panel time to SHs are affecting them big time. I mean they had to rely on guys like Vinsmokes, Fishmen to escape Cake island when they themselves should have made a plan for a situation like this.
Due to this power scaling is also getting affected.