Limbo was Madara's hindrance.

[Mellanoma]

After a discussion with a user regarding Kaguya and Madara comparison in relation to their abilities.

I decided to look more into Madara's abilities since there seems to always be a discussion about why Madara didn't use other abilities once his limbo clones were introduced.

At first, I thought it was due to IT, Deep Forest and CCC but as Animegoin pointed out. Even if that was the case he should have at least recovered considering what Kaguya was capable of. Even if Kaguya does have more chakra than Madara he still shouldn't have been so gimped.

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So I started looking into things further based on what I know about Limbo and what i've concluded was the clones themselves were the issue.

But MELLANOMA! They are just clones WTF you talking about.

Well, let me explain why I came up with this conclusion:

4th Databook information regarding the Limbo clones:

Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemy's unpreparedness invites disaster! A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distant world. In that space a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with current world can't feel. Not only will the jutsu user gain duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring of against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy. The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan it can shape four. When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return. (Fourth Databook)



Few points I want to make

1) The Clones are connected to the world but still in a distant world (inter dimensional (S/T) clones)


2) There were four in total

3) Madara was capable of interacting and swapping with Limbo clones.



With the information provided. It's quite plausible that the Limbo clones themselves were a HUGE burden on Madara simply because.

1) He needed constant chakra consumption to maintain those clones in the state they were in (They were S/T clones that required a substantial amount of energy to maintain their inter-dimensional state of invincibility.)

2) With four in total it's possible his chakra was divided by four (Speculation but plausible if they have equal ability)

3) Madara was able to Swap and interact with them. (This would be like Sasuke using Ameno on an inter-dimensional clone without a portal to a clone that technically doesn't exist. It would kill him)

With this information factored in I'm almost positive that Madara burned more chakra sustaining 4 inter dimensional clones than Kaguya probably did simply changing dimensions.

So essentially, the "REAL" madara was probably nothing more than 20% of his power and once the "Limbo trick" was found out he was only 20% effective or by simply cancelling a clone he regained his power. Limbo was still extremely powerful and he did beat them both but I wanted to simply state Limbo was just that powerful and chakra consuming.


Anyways,

Thoughts?

 

[Animegoin]

While I see what you were getting at, I have to disagree on the Rikudou Madara’s chakra reserve portion in relation to the chakra consumption of the Limbo clones. While they may cost a substantial amount of chakra, nothing we’ve seen would indicate a burden on Madara’s chakra reserves.

 

[Klubargutan]

tI would disagree with the "power split" - i.e. every limbo clone was at 100% power of the original, but sustaining them certainly should cost a lot of chakra.....

I have also noticed that, upon being penetrated by black zetsu, those limbo clones didn't rush and help Madara, but were idle until Madara completely transformed into Kaguya ->implying that the user had to control them as well instead of possessing "another soul" like shadow and wood clones do.

A little bit off topic, but I have always been disappointed that Madara spammed limbo and jutsu absorbtion instead of the almighty shinra tensei!

 

[Holy God]

It doesn't fit in with the story at all in my opinion. Not only did Madara not seem fatigued at all during the fight from using Limbo, but you have to understand that it was made for Madara to use even without the Ten-Tails. He wouldn't be able to use it effectively if it consumed so much chakra and since we know Madara knew it about before the war, that means he used it as an old man near the brink of death with a lack of chakra.

 

[jimbobbity]

To be honest i just saw limbo as one of those things where you go "huh thats exists" and then forget it was ever a thing.

 

[ThelUchiha]

Technique is not the same as the shadowclones so, i dont think that his chakra is divided. Its a simple Rinnegan technique - and probably chakra is used to keep them on and when used but i dont think his power is divided

 

[Mellanoma]

While I see what you were getting at, I have to disagree on the Rikudou Madara’s chakra reserve portion in relation to the chakra consumption of the Limbo clones. While they may cost a substantial amount of chakra, nothing we’ve seen would indicate a burden on Madara’s chakra reserves.

I dont think it burdened him to the point where physical performance was impacted but more so very limited on Jutsu usage. Reanalyzing the fight it also appears he spent most his time baby sitting his limbo clones which brings me to a great point Klubargutan actually made.

I have also noticed that, upon being penetrated by black zetsu, those limbo clones didn't rush and help Madara, but were idle until Madara completely transformed into Kaguya ->implying that the user had to control them as well instead of possessing "another soul" like shadow and wood clones do.

Much like Nagato controlling the 6 paths. It's quite possible Madara needed to constantly control the limbo clones and keep himself prepared (Ameno like swapping/ countering with him) while also sustaining the link between himself and the clone. IF he controls them.

It doesn't fit in with the story at all in my opinion. Not only did Madara not seem fatigued at all during the fight from using Limbo, but you have to understand that it was made for Madara to use even without the Ten-Tails. He wouldn't be able to use it effectively if it consumed so much chakra and since we know Madara knew it about before the war, that means he used it as an old man near the brink of death with a lack of chakra.

How does utilizing a super powered invincible clone to fight for you not play a part in the story when thats exactly what Madara did?

Yes, Madara used the ability without the ten-tails but that doesn't discredit the fact that he still sustained them for quite some time while battling 2 pseudo sage level teens. I'm not saying his reserved were sapped i'm simply making the case that the clones themselves hindered him from using other jutsu. For all we know it could have been a draw back to utilizing limbo which honestly isn't a bad idea since 2 people on the planet can counter them.

@Your old man statement. This is actually false as Rinnengan users seem to immediately have the ability to know of their capabilities but doesn't mean they can utilize them.

To be honest i just saw limbo as one of those things where you go "huh thats exists" and then forget it was ever a thing.

Technique is not the same as the shadowclones so, i dont think that his chakra is divided. Its a simple Rinnegan technique - and probably chakra is used to keep them on and when used but i dont think his power is divided

Part of the reason I made this thread was due to the fact that most people saw Limbo as just regular clones when in fact they are probably the most advanced ability in the series to date.


We've seen dimension shifting, we've seen s/t swapping. We've seen Phasing (Kamui) but we've never seen a clone that literally sits phased out of reality constantly being held in another dimension while interacting with the current dimension.

 

[Holy God]

How does utilizing a super powered invincible clone to fight for you not play a part in the story when thats exactly what Madara did?

I don't know what you're talking about here. My first sentence was in reference to how you think Limbo functions, not it being in the story.

Yes, Madara used the ability without the ten-tails but that doesn't discredit the fact that he still sustained them for quite some time while battling 2 pseudo sage level teens. I'm not saying his reserved were sapped i'm simply making the case that the clones themselves hindered him from using other jutsu. For all we know it could have been a draw back to utilizing limbo which honestly isn't a bad idea since 2 people on the planet can counter them.

But then what are these limitations? He seemed perfectly fine using multiple Planetary Devastation of immense size, to the point of calling them raindrops, and following through with two Planetary level techniques, although we don't know how costly they are. We can also tell he was clearly holding back from what he said after he came down from the moon. What exactly were you expecting him to do?

@Your old man statement. This is actually false as Rinnengan users seem to immediately have the ability to know of their capabilities but doesn't mean they can utilize them.

Not exactly. They have an sense of what they can do, but that's it. Sasuke perhaps knew he could teleport, but he factually said he had to experiment with the Rinnegan and he's shown he did not know the range of his technique yet, as well as having evolved it to the point of creating portals. Likewise, Madara did not know that Limbo could be seen or sensed by anyone, which is why he was surprised at both Naruto and Sasuke.

In the war, however, Madara seemed to know exactly what Limbo would do (before?) he even put the eye in his socket, stating it to be the true power of his Rinnegan, and he even knew the time limit of it. He seemed to know everything to do with the Six Paths and Rinnegan as an old man, and taught Obito, so I can't see why Limbo would be the sole exclusion.

 

[Animegoin]

I dont think it burdened him to the point where physical performance was impacted but more so very limited on Jutsu usage. Reanalyzing the fight it also appears he spent most his time baby sitting his limbo clones which brings me to a great point Klubargutan actually made.

We have to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge a nerf bestowed upon an OP character when we see it. His entire character took a huge nerf while battling “Night Gai” and bigger one afterwards.