No, like I’d said, there are levels to blindness. Plus they both have heightened senses as well, so they aren’t fully handicapped despite not having eyes or just having one. So therefore, OP’s post is still correct.
Toneri neither has the experience nor was he used to the tenseigan (which is unfinished might I add)
Madara is practically Madara + Hashirama. Toneri is just... Toneri, which is kind of sad.
Madara did not solo while blind, he was just tenacious. It's like saying "WOW I cannot catch this ferret. This ferret solo-ed me" It's a stupid logic. Madara was formidable, not solo god.
Madara fought 17 y.o. who aren't used to their powers and still struggling to control their powers while at the same time distracted and power drained.
Toneri was up against a hell-bent, fully powered 3x god wrecker and the one who defeated Sasuke. A person who is NOT an inexperienced, 17 y.o. who is distracted with saving others, including bijuus. He was there to **** Toneri up, get the gals, and stop the moon. He was not prancing around with multiple clones saving people from Zetsus and bijuu blasts and other destructive forces all over the place. Nor was he exhausted and had Kurama holding him back.
Madara still beats Toneri by a lot but that's simply due to experience and buffs. Toneri is handicapped.
That's like "ooo I can run faster than a paraplegic" It isn't a true comparison. What if that paraplegic can actually run? Will I be faster?
Toneri is handicapped in the sense of he never had Madara's share of war. Nor is he fully aware/accessible to his tenseigan powers. Nor was he fully adapted to the tenseigan or it being complete and stable. He also is not running around with someone's godly body.
You don’t get it, Madara is literally blind in both scenarios.
And again, the tailed beasts failed to defeat Madara when he had no eyes AND Madara was fighting recklessly intentionally, and therefore holding back. Therefore, Madara > Toneri, neg diff and OP’s comment is correct.
You don’t get it, Madara is literally blind in both scenarios.
And again, the tailed beasts failed to defeat Madara when he had no eyes AND Madara was fighting recklessly intentionally, and therefore holding back. Therefore, Madara > Toneri, neg diff and OP’s comment is correct.
1. Partially blind is still not the same kind of nerf as fully blind.
2. Holding back, intentional or not, is still no excuse and it can not be used to credit him.
3. Here is a factor that I almost forgot to mention, but: The one eye that Madara got wasn't just a normal eye. It was a rinnegan. Even one rinnegan eye is a massive buff in power. It actually granted Madara access to rikudou level techniques like limbo and the mazou. Therefore, even if Madara was partially blind, the one eye alone gave him way more of an advantage than Toneri who had no eyes and no dojutsu power.
Edit: Also, avoiding being sealed away is not the same as actually defeating your opponent. Also, we don't know who is stronger between Urashiki and the bijuus, so the OP's point still doesn't stand.
I'm actually surprised no one has brought up that Madara had SM at the time. He couldn't see? No problem, I could sense everyone even those behind me. The Tail Whips would've turned me into a smear on the ground? No problem, SM comes with increased endurance along with the physical strength my Limbo shadows would need to knock the Bijuu on their ass with something they won't even see coming. The Naruto Toneri fought would've knocked blind Madara on his ass.
Toneri is not as strong as JJ Madara though. This much is obvious. Every other version though loses to Toneri except maybe Dual Rinnegan JJ Madara.
1. Partially blind is still not the same kind of nerf as fully blind.
2. Holding back, intentional or not, is still no excuse and it can not be used to credit him.
3. Here is a factor that I almost forgot to mention, but: The one eye that Madara got wasn't just a normal eye. It was a rinnegan. Even one rinnegan eye is a massive buff in power. It actually granted Madara access to rikudou level techniques like limbo and the mazou. Therefore, even if Madara was partially blind, the one eye alone gave him way more of an advantage than Toneri who had no eyes and no dojutsu power.
Edit: Also, avoiding being sealed away is not the same as actually defeating your opponent. Also, we don't know who is stronger between Urashiki and the bijuus, so the OP's point still doesn't stand.
1. Madara wrecked Sasuke, Naruto, Sai, Hashirama and the fodder soldiers without having eyes. The Bijuus’ greatest effort to seal a Madara that was giving them a handicap was met with failure.
2. Madara holding back is completely valid and should be compared to Toneri, who didn’t hold back when he had no eyes in his socket. Madara could’ve manifested PS while simultaneously utilizing Wood Release in a hypothetical scenario to capture the beast, yet didn’t display any of the power he truly had at his disposal.
3.) Madara can control the Mezo even without the Rinnegan, he literally has the Rikudou’s body due to Hashirama’s DNA. Which is why he told Obito “Even if you never awaken the Rinnegan, the Hashirama cells built into you should allow you to control the Gedo Mezo.” I paraphrased but the fact is there:
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And like I mentioned in the 2nd point, Madara didn’t have to utilize Limbo to take on the Bijuu if he was serious but as Madara said, it was the more “sophisticated” choice. So, again, he could’ve captured them without his eyes. Now back to the OP, since there are various degrees of blindness, Madara defeated all of them while blind.
1. Madara wrecked Sasuke, Naruto, Sai, Hashirama and the fodder soldiers without having eyes. The Bijuus’ greatest effort to seal a Madara that was giving them a handicap was met with failure.
2. Madara holding back is completely valid and should be compared to Toneri, who didn’t hold back when he had no eyes in his socket. Madara could’ve manifested PS while simultaneously utilizing Wood Release in a hypothetical scenario to capture the beast, yet didn’t display any of the power he truly had at his disposal.
3.) Madara can control the Mezo even without the Rinnegan, he literally has the Rikudou’s body due to Hashirama’s DNA. Which is why he told Obito “Even if you never awaken the Rinnegan, the Hashirama cells built into you should allow you to control the Gedo Mezo.” I paraphrased but the fact is there:
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And like I mentioned in the 2nd point, Madara didn’t have to utilize Limbo to take on the Bijuu if he was serious but as Madara said, it was the more “sophisticated” choice. So, again, he could’ve captured them without his eyes. Now back to the OP, since there are various degrees of blindness, Madara defeated all of them while blind.
1. Madara didn't wreck them without eyes. Edo Madara vs Edo Hashirama took place with Madara having both eyes. Sure he made the final hand sign that immobilized Hashirama after his eyes disappeared, but at that point Hashirama already had the black rods in his back, so all Madara had to do was make the hand sign. Anyone with working arms can do that with or without eyes. As for Sasuke, eye-less Madara simply knocked him back a distance with that katon, but it is not like Sasuke was dead or unconscious as far as we know. In fact, that katon was used more like a smoke screen. Therefore, we can't say that he wrecked Sasuke. He had to have actually defeated Sasuke in order to wreck him. As for Naruto and Sai, did eye-less Madara ever actually attack them? I remember that Naruto threw that giant rasenshuriken at him and Madara tanked it. Then Sai tried to seal Madara with the tiger and Madara just broke out of Hashirama's gates, thus dispersing the tiger in the process. However, I don't remember eye-less Madara ever actually attacking Naruto and Sai. Therefore we can not say that eye-less Madara wrecked them when he didn't even fight them.
As for the bijuus, I reiterate: Breaking out of a seal is not the same as beating an opponent. It is an escape feat, and a feat of strength/evasive manouvering/speed depending on the nature of the seal, but it is not the same as beating an opponent. Like, I said: Eye-less Madara didn't even attack the bijuus. He didn't attack until he got the rinnegan.
Treating eye-less Madara as if he actually defeated the bijuus is like this: Imagine that a gang is attacking one man. Now let's say that the gang beats the man to a bloody pulp, but when they try to shoot him and kill him, the man dodges the bullet (thus meaning that the gang failed to kill him). Does that mean that the man is oh so strong, because he got beat up but was able to avoid being finished off by the final blow?
2. Could have should have would have, but he didn't. Your choices and decision making process are apart of your strength. If you have all of the power in the world, but you act too arrogantly or like an absolute retard and you get beat up or killed as a result, then that is your own failure. What Madara could have done makes no difference in this scenario. By the way, there are things that eyeless Toneri could have done as well. In The Last, we see Toneri using some abilities that have nothing to do with tenseigan or even byakugan. Therefore, if you want to argue about things that Madara could have done, then I can also argue about things that Toneri could have done. This goes both ways. There are probably reasons for both of them why they didn't use everything in their arsenal at the times in question, but in the end it makes no difference.
3. I remember that scan that you brought up. However, Madara just said that you can control the mazou even without rinnegan, not that you can summon it without rinnegan. Notice that even though Madara's goal was to capture the bijuus within the mazou, he didn't summon the mazou until he got his rinnegan eye back? Notice that even though Obito had Uchiha and Senju cells the whole time, he never actually summoned the mazou until he got the rinnegan from Nagato's body (though on this point I will admit that it is possible that Obito never had to do so until the war, but on the flip side, it could have helped in the fights against Minato and Konan, though he was already controlling Kurama during the fight against Minato). Despite all that stuff about the mazou though, the fact remains that limbo is still a rinnegan technique and so are the black rods.
You may say that Madara could have defeated the bijuus without limbo, but that brings me right back to my should have could have would have point.
Finally, you're still not getting that:
one super powered eye and another man's SM >>>>> no eyes or SM at all.
The two scenarios are not comparable.
Bonus point: Can you prove to me as of right now that the 9 bijuus > Urashiki Otsutsuki? The strength of the opponent(s) also factors into things.
1. Madara didn't wreck them without eyes. Edo Madara vs Edo Hashirama took place with Madara having both eyes. Sure he made the final hand sign that immobilized Hashirama after his eyes disappeared, but at that point Hashirama already had the black rods in his back, so all Madara had to do was make the hand sign. Anyone with working arms can do that with or without eyes. As for Sasuke, eye-less Madara simply knocked him back a distance with that katon, but it is not like Sasuke was dead or unconscious as far as we know. In fact, that katon was used more like a smoke screen. Therefore, we can't say that he wrecked Sasuke. He had to have actually defeated Sasuke in order to wreck him. As for Naruto and Sai, did eye-less Madara ever actually attack them? I remember that Naruto threw that giant rasenshuriken at him and Madara tanked it. Then Sai tried to seal Madara with the tiger and Madara just broke out of Hashirama's gates, thus dispersing the tiger in the process. However, I don't remember eye-less Madara ever actually attacking Naruto and Sai. Therefore we can not say that eye-less Madara wrecked them when he didn't even fight them.
As for the bijuus, I reiterate: Breaking out of a seal is not the same as beating an opponent. It is an escape feat, and a feat of strength/evasive manouvering/speed depending on the nature of the seal, but it is not the same as beating an opponent. Like, I said: Eye-less Madara didn't even attack the bijuus. He didn't attack until he got the rinnegan.
Treating eye-less Madara as if he actually defeated the bijuus is like this: Imagine that a gang is attacking one man. Now let's say that the gang beats the man to a bloody pulp, but when they try to shoot him and kill him, the man dodges the bullet (thus meaning that the gang failed to kill him). Does that mean that the man is oh so strong, because he got beat up but was able to avoid being finished off by the final blow?
2. Could have should have would have, but he didn't. Your choices and decision making process are apart of your strength. If you have all of the power in the world, but you act too arrogantly or like an absolute retard and you get beat up or killed as a result, then that is your own failure. What Madara could have done makes no difference in this scenario. By the way, there are things that eyeless Toneri could have done as well. In The Last, we see Toneri using some abilities that have nothing to do with tenseigan or even byakugan. Therefore, if you want to argue about things that Madara could have done, then I can also argue about things that Toneri could have done. This goes both ways. There are probably reasons for both of them why they didn't use everything in their arsenal at the times in question, but in the end it makes no difference.
3. I remember that scan that you brought up. However, Madara just said that you can control the mazou even without rinnegan, not that you can summon it without rinnegan. Notice that even though Madara's goal was to capture the bijuus within the mazou, he didn't summon the mazou until he got his rinnegan eye back? Notice that even though Obito had Uchiha and Senju cells the whole time, he never actually summoned the mazou until he got the rinnegan from Nagato's body (though on this point I will admit that it is possible that Obito never had to do so until the war, but on the flip side, it could have helped in the fights against Minato and Konan, though he was already controlling Kurama during the fight against Minato). Despite all that stuff about the mazou though, the fact remains that limbo is still a rinnegan technique and so are the black rods.
You may say that Madara could have defeated the bijuus without limbo, but that brings me right back to my should have could have would have point.
Finally, you're still not getting that:
one super powered eye and another man's SM >>>>> no eyes or SM at all.
The two scenarios are not comparable.
Bonus point: Can you prove to me as of right now that the 9 bijuus > Urashiki Otsutsuki? The strength of the opponent(s) also factors into things.
Stop, you’re embarrassing yourself at this point. I said what I had to say and this didn’t have to go this far tbh lol.
@Bold: Madara’s body allows him to do all this pertaining to the Gedo. Notice that this was said after Madara no longer had the Rinnegan in his possession:
Stop, you’re embarrassing yourself at this point. I said what I had to say and this didn’t have to go this far tbh lol.
@Bold: Madara’s body allows him to do all this pertaining to the Gedo. Notice that this was said after Madara no longer had the Rinnegan in his possession:
Bro, Madara summoned the gedo when he awakened the rinnegan. After that, he just tethered himself to it.
Anyway, stop focusing on the gedo so much as that is not the overarching point. Whether or not you attribute the gedo to the rinnegan, that doesn't take away the fact that limbo is a rinnegan technique.
Nor does it take away the true point that 1 rinnegan eye and Hashirama's SM >>>>>> No eyes + No SM or any other benefits.
Like I said, the scenarios are not comparable.
You're the one embarrassing yourself by saying that a guy with a super powered eye and another man's SM has no added advantage over a completely eye-less person. It is just a matter of common sense at this point.
Bro, Madara summoned the gedo when he awakened the rinnegan. After that, he just tethered himself to it.
Anyway, stop focusing on the gedo so much as that is not the overarching point. Whether or not you attribute the gedo to the rinnegan, that doesn't take away the fact that limbo is a rinnegan technique.
Nor does it take away the true point that 1 rinnegan eye and Hashirama's SM >>>>>> No eyes + No SM or any other benefits.
Like I said, the scenarios are not comparable.
You're the one embarrassing yourself by saying that a guy with a super powered eye and another man's SM has no added advantage over a completely eye-less person. It is just a matter of common sense at this point.
You never even responded to my counters to your points. Like you completely ignored how I proved that eye-less Madara didn't wreck anyone, and you just fixated on the mazou which wasn't even the point. All you said is "I've already said my piece". Typical cop out. Anyway, don't bother responding. I get annoyed with those who can't debate in a civil manner without resorting to insults.
You never even responded to my counters to your points. Like you completely ignored how I proved that eye-less Madara didn't wreck anyone, and you just fixated on the mazou which wasn't even the point. All you said is "I've already said my piece". Typical cop out. Anyway, don't bother responding. I get annoyed with those who can't debate in a civil manner without resorting to insults.
You were arguing hypotheticals, which is tedious and pointless, which is why I said that this conversation didn’t have to go “this far.” You practically made a short essay attempting to justify your flawed logic. I massacred you to the point where you were attempting covering all basis before hand by saying things like, “you may say *blahblah*.” You’re redundant at this point in regards to having to be addressed any further. I graciously allow you to have the last comment here since everyone can read through our exchange and conclude what they will.
