Kirin and byakugo

[Jinrou]

Never said that.Just a stone beside your street road cannot express it's bad temper.Which was my point.

It can't express it.. which means a stone can have bad temper?

 

[Uverdore9]

It can't express it.. which means a stone can have bad temper?

If you cannot express it you cannot have it(in other eyes).Fact is,Kirin roared and showed a type of sentient quality which led BZ to twist his words like that of addressing a living being.Show me where else the word 'tame' is used in the manga.There is not a single panel with that word in my memory.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Bad example a small puddle of water and tobirama high level water jutsu are a pretty big difference. there was a whole shinobi alliance that used water jutsu against Madara as well with no water present. Author is just bending the rules as the manga goes this shouldn't be a surprise.

Now you're changing your argument, first you said it's not possible without and now youre saying only low lvl techs can be used without water source. With tobirama bing an exception. Water wall, the tech tobirama got praise for . . . is B rank. It's not high. Throw that theory out bro.

The difference is pretty self explanatory. You can't perform high level jutsu without a lot of chakra unless you're able to tame the element. In the examples you showed the scale of the water techniques would be on a whole other level if they had tamed that element but instead they had to gather chakra and perform handseals. Kirin requires neither leading zetsu to say he tamed lightning. No other jutsu has been performed on that scale with so little chakra present. Please correct me if I'm wrong

kakashi's techs with a water source is on a different lvl than when he doesn't have a water source. Now you're parroting what i already said. That water vortex and water dragon that he used vs zabuza are way bigger than his water wall. kisame with a water source goes from 5 sharks(not saying 5 is his limit mind you) to 1000, and to top it off in kisame,mei and tobirama's case it only needed 1 seal.And don't get twisted it still cost sasuke chakra to use kirin. Its just relatively low given how powerful the tech is. Relative being the key word there.

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Are you agreeing with me now?

 

[Jiren]

Now you're changing your argument, first you said it's not possible without and now youre saying only low lvl techs can be used without water source. Water wall, the tech tobirama got praise for . . . is B rank. It's not high.






kakashi's techs with a water source is on a different lvl than when he doesn't have a water source. Now you're parroting what i already said. That water vortex and water dragon that he used vs zabuza are way bigger than his water wall. kisame with a water source goes from 5 sharks(not saying 5 is his limit mind you) to 1000, and to top it off in kisame,mei and tobirama's case it only needed 1 seal.And don't get twisted it still cost sasuke chakra to use kirin. Its just relatively low given how powerful the tech is. Relative being the key word there.

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Are you agreeing with me now?

Agree with what? Sasuke performing a tbb technique scaled without rikudou chakra or even enough chakra to activate his sharingan to perform chidori? What is the argument this was not about part 1 water jutsu but why Kirin by nature is different from water jutsu all together.

My original statement I said water and earth jutsu is primarily used with the source with the exception of a few users sure but that's not enough to go by to say these users a controlling water in the same manner Kirin is controlled.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Agree with what? Sasuke performing a tbb technique without rikudou chakra or even enough chakra to activate his sharingan or perform chidori? What is the argument this was not about part 1 second of water jutsu but why Kirin by nature is different from water jutsu all together.

1.His sharingan was active the whole time. . .

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And when he finished he was panting and out of breath(and then finally turned off sharingan), meaning it def cost him chakra..

2. kirin is tbb lvl? Not only is that not true that's aside from the point.

3.The argument is manipulating a preexisting source of (insert element here) to save chakra and use bigger techs isn't special or limited to kirin. I only used water techs as examples to support this argument.

No water source kakashi:

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small scale tech not much bigger than his body

with water source kakashi:

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large scale tech ripping trees out the ground.

Relative to kakashi, its clear as day that the second scan is beyond what he can normally do by spitting out water alone.

Then when you factor in that had extremely bad reserves back then. 4 raikiri(only double that of genin sasuke) him pulling that off after doing a water dragon. Its a safe assumption that the preexisting water made it easier on his reserves. Since to this day the only ppl to pull it off without a water source are 2 kage (tobirama, and mei)

 

[Jiren]

1.His sharingan was active the whole time. . .

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And when he finished he was panting and out of breath(and then finally turned off sharingan), meaning it def cost him chakra..

2. kirin is tbb lvl? Not only is that not true that's aside from the point.

3.The argument is manipulating a preexisting source of (insert element here) to save chakra and use bigger techs isn't special or limited to kirin. I only used water techs as examples to support this argument.

No water source kakashi:

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small scale tech not much bigger than his body

with water source kakashi:

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large scale tech ripping trees out the ground.

Relative to kakashi, its clear as day that the second scan is beyond what he can normally do by spitting out water alone.

Then when you factor in that had extremely bad reserves back then. 4 raikiri(only double that of genin sasuke) him pulling that off after doing a water dragon. Its a safe assumption that the preexisting water made it easier on his reserves. Since to this day the only ppl to pull it off without a water source are 2 kage (tobirama, and mei)

Itachi touts that Sasuke was out of chakra or nearly out of chakra while performing Kirin. Kirin is scaled to be mountain level so yes that is a big factor as damage output of a jutsu usually has a direct correlation to how much chakra has to be used. Whatever the case with kakashi is pretty moot as his chakra was much for significant than Sasukes at this point since the sharingan is perfectly capable of reading chakra leading Itachi to state their was nothing more Sasuke can pull.

Yes sure A small relation can be said between using an outside element to help the power of water and earth techniques but not at the scale Kirin was brought up with nearly no chakra left for any techniques to be performed out of the blue.

The lightning was tamed in this manner because it responded to a small amount of chakra without handseals as opposed to kakashi 44handseals, mei,kisame and tobirama also having massive reserves for themselves as well.

unless you have a scan of user performing jutsus on a scale similar to Kirin with little to no chakra left then your point is pretty moot as the word tame here is not used lightly by zetsu and the technique Kirin reserves its own unique characteristic in this manner.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Itachi touts that Sasuke was out of chakra or nearly out of chakra while performing Kirin. Kirin is scaled to be mountain level so yes that is a big factor as damage output of a jutsu usually has a direct correlation to how much chakra has to be used. Whatever the case with kakashi is pretty moot as his chakra was much for significant than Sasukes at this point since the sharingan is perfectly capable of reading chakra leading Itachi to state their was nothing more Sasuke can pull.

Itachi's assessment was fase. Not only did sasuke have chakra for kirin but he also had chakra set aside to contain oro.

And kirin isnt mountain lvl. It destroyed a building. That's it. A TBB will erase a mountain in its entirety. That's like calling FRS mountain lvl. Or Jman's SM giant rasengan mountain lvl. Noo. its not.

Yes sure A small relation can be said between using an outside element to help the power of water and earth techniques but not at the scale Kirin was brought up with nearly no chakra left for any techniques to be performed out of the blue.

Again its relative. Even the scan says so.

The lightning was tamed in this manner because it responded to a small amount of chakra without handseals as opposed to kakashi 44handseals, mei,kisame and tobirama also having massive reserves for themselves as well.

Part 1 kakashi doesn't have a lot of chakra, and kage lvl ninja can get it done with 1 seal. So both your stipulations are pretty moot.

unless you have a scan of user performing jutsus on a scale similar to Kirin with little to no chakra left then your point is pretty moot as the word tame here is not used lightly by zetsu and the technique Kirin reserves its own unique characteristic in this manner.

For the last time. Scale is relative. -_-

I already shown the scale difference therefore i proved my point. You jumped from excuse to excuse. No need to continue any further.

 

[Jiren]

Itachi's assessment was fase. Not only did sasuke have chakra for kirin but he also had chakra set aside to contain oro.

And kirin isnt mountain lvl. It destroyed a building. That's it. A TBB will erase a mountain in its entirety. That's like calling FRS mountain lvl. Or Jman's SM giant rasengan mountain lvl. Noo. its not.

Again its relative. Even the scan says so.

Part 1 kakashi doesn't have a lot of chakra, and kage lvl ninja can get it done with 1 seal. So both your stipulations are pretty moot.

For the last time. Scale is relative. -_-

I already shown the scale difference therefore i proved my point. You jumped from excuse to excuse. No need to continue any further.

I haven't been jumping from excuse to excuse. You've been taking a little point I've made and exagerrating it's fault Just so you can jump around with a few scans to say the same thing over and over again. I'm also just going off by just memory alone.

Itachi clearly says Sasuke is out of chakra and that he cantperform any techniques and Sasuke concurs to this statement. Kirin being a technique that tames the natural lightning around him makes it so he can use the ability with minimal chakra usuage. There is no other technique like this regardless of your excuse that water jutsu that be used by the the water environment. Its literally not the same because of the scale and power of this ability.

Kirin is certainly a mountain level technique. It busted through Itachi's susanoo and plowed through the mountain top of the uchiha hideout.

Part 1 kakashi might not have a lot of chakra but he sure had enough chakra than an exhausted Sasuke that Itachi says Sasuke is drained of chakra. Hebi Sasuke doesn't even have the power to perform a technique of that scale even at full power which goes to show how much different Kirin than using a regular water jutsu.