Clarifying the Retcons

[wanderingcactus]

So in my previous thread, people were left rather confused (or didn't bother to really get into it)

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so I will clarify the retcon that I claim Kishi made in this thread and the link above will discuss on how Kishi intended everything to end up.

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J-Man's book revealed that Naruto is the prophetic Saviour - the second coming of the Rikoudou Sennin.
Rikoudou Sennin was then based on Naruto due to this as Naruto will eventually end up as him.

However, complications arose when putting Sasuke into the equation as Narutoverse's main trajectory is that Naruto gain the trust of Kurama and having to fight Sasuke.

Having Naruto symbolise Rikoudou Sennin would leave Sasuke out of the equation (gotta have God go up against the Devil. Yin and the Yang. Good v Evil. 2 halves of the same coin)

So Kishi decided to create Indra and Ashura, his sons.

This way, Sasuke is now included into the mix (paralleled)

Having Rikoudou Sennin be the "Saviour" did not make sense as there was nothing to save Earth from.
Then came along the Juubi and with it Kaguya.

With Naruto and Sasuke needing to defeat the Juubi, meaning they work together, they have to go on the same level as the Rikoudou Sennin, now Hagoromo.

This then created Hamura, the other half of Hagoromo (now Sasuke is included when it comes to Rikoudou Sennin)

This is why there is a discrepancy with the symbols and parallels.

Hamura was the younger one, and the theme is the younger one symbolizes the late bloomer, Yang, the light one, the one without doujutsu

Hagoromo was the older one, he had dark hair (red instead of white), he has rinnegan (we exclude rinnnesharingan as that's juubi-jin instead of KKG)

Naruto =/= Hagoromo but rather Hamura (light hair, late bloomer, no doujutsu - byakugan is lesser than rinnegan)

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Had he planned it ahead, it would've looked like this:

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The arrows points on who they were based on.

There would be no Rikudou Sennin (he is more like future Naruto than Hagoromo anyways)
Indra and Ashura are not needed as Hagoromo and Hamura are now Sasuke's and Naruto's parallels


also

Spoiler

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[Uverdore9]

Uzumakis definitely are related to Hyuga and Otsutsuki.

They have absolutely nothing to do with Hagoromo....

You are absolutely right on that part......

 

[chopstickchakra]

He also retconned kekkai genkai.

Originally it was a bloodline limit passed to family members(what the "Hiden techniques" of the K11 essentially were originally) then he made them the combination of chakra natures but bloodline restriceted as shown with Haku. Then not bloodline restricted as Ao and Kakashi are both able to utilize something you can only activate if you're of a certain bloodline. Then Mu taught Oonoki Dust Release when they aren't related.

So it went from being a bloodline trait, to a bloodline trait where you combine two or more natures, to having cases of non bloodline users using bloodline jutsu, to just being able to combine two or more natures with no emphasis on bloodline.

 

[kiiro]

Why do you say Naruto comes from Hamura?

 

[InfiniteMugen]

He also retconned kekkai genkai.

Originally it was a bloodline limit passed to family members(what the "Hiden techniques" of the K11 essentially were originally) then he made them the combination of chakra natures but bloodline restriceted as shown with Haku. Then not bloodline restricted as Ao and Kakashi are both able to utilize something you can only activate if you're of a certain bloodline. Then Mu taught Oonoki Dust Release when they aren't related.

So it went from being a bloodline trait, to a bloodline trait where you combine two or more natures, to having cases of non bloodline users using bloodline jutsu, to just being able to combine two or more natures with no emphasis on bloodline.

I don’t see the issue with kakashi, he couldn’t deactivate it, it drained his chakra notably while used, and was taken while it was activated. Ao on the other hand is iffy, cause he can turn his on and off at will, and he took it in battle, which is odd cause you would think they’d send the side branch out to battle, and they have the seals

 

[kiiro]

He also retconned kekkai genkai.

Originally it was a bloodline limit passed to family members(what the "Hiden techniques" of the K11 essentially were originally) then he made them the combination of chakra natures but bloodline restriceted as shown with Haku. Then not bloodline restricted as Ao and Kakashi are both able to utilize something you can only activate if you're of a certain bloodline. Then Mu taught Oonoki Dust Release when they aren't related.

So it went from being a bloodline trait, to a bloodline trait where you combine two or more natures, to having cases of non bloodline users using bloodline jutsu, to just being able to combine two or more natures with no emphasis on bloodline.

Well we can explain it as different types of kkg. Kakashi explained that Yamato has mokuton which is water and earth and for this reason he can separate them. But not having blood traits it will imposible or difficult to try something like that.

Then with Mu and Onoki is not KKG but Kekkei Touta which is Literally meaning: Bloodline Selection. So is tecnic you select to pass according to bloodline limts like having the 3 elements. While KKG is limited to bloodline.

And hiden techniques as I know has never been confused with kkg. It is a secret passed down. Anyone can learn it being from a clan.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Why do you say Naruto comes from Hamura?

parallels, most noticeably Toneri and the tenseigan techs (chakra mode)


Hagoromo was a failed design as he was based on Rikudou Sennin
[1st image with the confusing arrows]
Rikudou Sennin is who Naruto was suppose to become prior the Otsutsuki arc.
That was the original ending, that is why he closely resembles Naruto.

There are the color scheme, age, and the symbol scheme (eye or body).
Yin - black/dark, older, eye
Yang - white/light, younger, body

Hagoromo was the older sibling and he had the rinnegan - Yin (Sasuke)
He had 2 sons = Uchiha and Senju

Hamura was the younger sibling and he didn't have anything until later, tenseigan - Yang (Naruto)
he had 2 clans = Hyuga's ancestor and Toneri's

Toneri is most likely tied to the Uzumaki due having Hamura missing a Yang clan and the Uzumakis are Yang
Kishi did not specify whether the Uzumakis are direct descendants of Hagoromo either.
The panel was that Uzumakis are distant (not direct) blood relatives. others translated it as "distant cousins"

If we are simply talking about the 2nd Gen (Indra and Ashura) their direct cousins would be the Hyuga and Toneri's ancestors

Also, what is the basis of the Uzumaki coming from Hagoromo?

Hagoromo having red hair? If he has it, Hamura also carried the red hair gene.
2nd, Senju and Uzumaki marry each other = Hashirama marrying Mito
If anything, we could say Kushina could have had a Senju ancestor as well

Naruto is Ashura's transmigrant

what if he never was?
what if Sasuke was never Indra's?

For the first time, Indra's and Ashura's transmigrant ended the curse by creating Konoha.
Also Madara unlocked Rinnegan

as far as we know, these 2 actions ended the Indra and Ashura transmigrant war and transfered it to Hagoromo and Hamura

 

[chopstickchakra]

Well we can explain it as different types of kkg. Kakashi explained that Yamato has mokuton which is water and earth and for this reason he can separate them. But not having blood traits it will imposible or difficult to try something like that.

Then with Mu and Onoki is not KKG but Kekkei Touta which is Literally meaning: Bloodline Selection. So is tecnic you select to pass according to bloodline limts like having the 3 elements. While KKG is limited to bloodline.

And hiden techniques as I know has never been confused with kkg. It is a secret passed down. Anyone can learn it being from a clan.

Yama can do it because he has Hashi dna aka bloodline.

What I meant by the K11's Hiden techs were that they were what KKG was originally described as, they were originally said to be clan restricted like the Akimichi tech or the Nara for example, originally non clan members weren't supposed to be able to learn or perform those techniques as they're not nature transformations.

I don’t see the issue with kakashi, he couldn’t deactivate it, it drained his chakra notably while used, and was taken while it was activated. Ao on the other hand is iffy, cause he can turn his on and off at will, and he took it in battle, which is odd cause you would think they’d send the side branch out to battle, and they have the seals

You shouldn't be able to use it at all if you don't have the bloodline, that's kind of the literal idea behind bloodline restricted skills is that only the people who have that blood can utilize the skill. Kakashi's blood shouldn't be able to activate it all really. Once it left Obito's body it logically should have deactivated and if it deactivated Kakashi shouldn't be able to reactivate it, unless he has some Uchiha dna in his lineage(which is possible but that's a separate issue.)

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Yama can do it because he has Hashi dna aka bloodline.

What I meant by the K11's Hiden techs were that they were what KKG was originally described as, they were originally said to be clan restricted like the Akimichi tech or the Nara for example, originally non clan members weren't supposed to be able to learn or perform those techniques as they're not nature transformations.



You shouldn't be able to use it at all if you don't have the bloodline, that's kind of the literal idea behind bloodline restricted skills is that only the people who have that blood can utilize the skill. Kakashi's blood shouldn't be able to activate it all really. Once it left Obito's body it logically should have deactivated and if it deactivated Kakashi shouldn't be able to reactivate it, unless he has some Uchiha dna in his lineage(which is possible but that's a separate issue.)

Why does it have to work like that though? As a bloodline limit, obito awakened it, left it activated, and gave it too kakashi. Kakashi who doesn’t have the bloodline, can’t deactivate, and experiences a much bigger drain while using it. It seems plausible enough, seeing as how any time we see a sharingan taken out(mostly by uchiha btw) it stays activated. It’s possible it’s only necessary to have the bloodline to awaken it