Kishi's Inconsitencies - The Otsutsuki Retcon Story

[wanderingcactus]

I am already done with this thread when I previewed the image and seeing them blow up. I am now too lazy to change em so just click on the spoilers to reveal or hide them.

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EDIT: this is discussing the many mistakes that Kishi made and pointing out the retcons to cover that up. Do not get too hung up on Hagoromo's red hair as this was his design back when Kishi revealed that Naruto was "The One" or Rikoudou Sennin.

TLR
if Kishi applied retcon to everything he wrote about the Otsutsuki
Kaguya (yin-yang = rinnegan, tenseigan, sage mode, chakra mode)
Hagoromo (black hair, yin = rinnegan) Uchiha (MS) and Senju (SM)
Hamura (white hair, yang = tenseigan) Hyuga (byakugan) and Uzumaki (chakra mode)
Sasuke = Hagoromo (he is older, black hair, yin)
Naruto = Hamura (he is younger, blonde hair, yang)

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Why do people keep thinking that Uzumaki was on Hagoromo's side?

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Uzumaki being said that they are distant blood relative does not automatically mean they are from the same side

I mean Hashirama married Mito!

does this mean that Senjus aren't distant blood related to Hyuuga or Toneri's (which is the Uzumaki and I will explain why) only to distantly blood related to Uchihas?

Also, the Uzumakis aren't even included in Konoha, they have their own hidden village - the hidden eddy.

I get that Kishi kept retconning things is confusing as it was obvious that Hagoromo was supposed to be this ultimate being and then he started to include Ashura, Indra, Kaguya then Hamura (to have the symbolism of Yin and Yang) then the tenseigan.

But we can just use the evidence presented to us.

One: Hagoromo was based on Naruto (not the other way around).

In conception, Naruto became the basis for Hagoromo. Naruto was suppose to be his "transmigrant" as that was what Kishi had been planning on since J-man and his bible.. err book (RIP, miss you).

However, along the way, he started adding characters such as Indra, Ashura, Kaguya then ultimately Hamura.

If we look at parallels, Hagoromo should have had a black hair because he was the Yin part, hence we do not see any red hair from either Uchiha or Senju.

Hagoromo's parallel/"transmigrant" at the time was Naruto and that was why he had red hair.

Second evidence of retcon is that Ashura is also based on Naruto, which ultimately became his transmigrant.

His chakra cloak (this isn't a Senju technique, nor was it a Tailed Beast. it was derived from an Uzumaki technique)
Senjus had Sage Mode and not chakra manifestations such as cloak/chain (although I see the chain as one part of the cloak like Naruto's chakra arms)

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Hashirama didn't have chakra manifestations, Tsunade didn't have chakra manifestations.
Most importantly, Hagoromo did not have chakra manifestations but rather sage mode
His forehead was his Sage mode marking since during these panels, he and Hamura were still battling Kaguya

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Tsunade's wasn't completely Sage mode but a close imitation.

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Toneri DID have chakra manifestation though.

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Minato DID as well, he was well versed in Uzumaki tech, sealing techniques were Uzumaki specialities = fuinjutsus.

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Kurama was not chakra cloaked until Minato using the forbidden sealing technique Reaper Seal, Uzumaki Clan's speciality.

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Kishi's final wrap up and disclosure was Toneri.

Hamura was the last step to his final rendition of the Otsutsuki Clan with Toneri being the bowtie.

Toneri was a complete copy of Naruto's powers, without Kurama.
I would say we still did not get the full extent of the tenseigan as it was still incomplete.
Toneri's have the markings swirling and remained blue while it should be stable star marking and yellow

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Yin - black hair. Yang - white hair. Dark and Light

I mean come on, even even Toneri's Truth Seeking Orbs glow and do not remain dark

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Hagoromo should have had black hair (if he wasn't based on Naruto to begin with)
Ashura should only have Sage Mode markings (if he was not based on Naruto)

Hamura's side was the perfect deal.

Hyuga had black hair, doujutsu
Branch had white hair, chakra cloak/chain (manifestation)

we first see this pattern with the Senjus

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Hashirama (black) Tobirama (white) Itama (black and white)


just a little bonus on contrast color scheme

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To further stress the duality concept, I present to you:

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one has doujutsu tech (shame that tenseigan here wasn't showcased)
one has chakra manifestation (was also looking for sage mode)

when combined, here we see that sage mode is present as there are the markings around the eyes:

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Ikemoto's version does it better as the sage mode is more noticeable.
hopefully he retcons the chakra manifestations and tenseigan but I doubt it since we don't get to see that in the Boruto movie nor in the manga is he is "dead" I think the mark was like the cursed mark that Orochimaru gave Sasuke to revive himself.


At least we get to see Mitsuki and Naruto having Sage mode and chakra manifestation

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EDIT: Obviously most of you skimmed since you asked for TLR literally look at the bottom. here I'll even bold it. The purpose here is trying to fix Kishi's mistake as he retconned a lot of things as I mentioned above
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Do you think Kishimoto should have just redone everything rather than semi-stick with the retcon as he had

(Hagoromo being designed like Naruto and Ashura being designed like Naruto)
Tenseigan saved and only revealed till The Last movie when Kaguya could have used it (I believe that during this time in the manga, Kishi was working on the movie so the tenseigan was no longer just a concept)

Also do you agree that Uzumakis were from Hamura's branch family as Toneri exhibited every similar Naruto powers?

Do you agree or disagree with what I said above?

Discuss why you agree or disagree.

 

[FreeTanner17]

Need a TL/DR

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

I think this is some extreme fillerfic. A lot of what you're using to reach these big conclusions are minor things like parallelism's representation in colors, or just saying people are using Sage Mode because you see markings.. You started off strong though.

 

[Sagebee]

Since naruto was an ashura transmigrancy it's safe to say the uzumaki are descended from ashura

Also I'm a bit confused with your points are you only trying to argue uzumakis aren't related to hagoromo from what I can understand your asking why don't senju and uzumaki have red hair, hagoromo had reddish hair and I don't see them not having it proves the uzumaki aren't related. And I think your saying only naruto and toneris had chakra modes and they got it from something not natural specifically in the case if naruto.

 

[Calpal]

I think what you said is true.
however, i believe that it should not have gone this direction after the pain arc.

more evil organizations n shit, more samurai and more monks and stuff.
idk, they could have built up to another organization like the akatsuki.

 

[wanderingcactus]

I think this is some extreme fillerfic. A lot of what you're using to reach these big conclusions are minor things like parallelism's representation in colors, or just saying people are using Sage Mode because you see markings.. You started off strong though.

well it was building the bridge.

Kishi did a lot of retcon but he stayed consistent, I'll give him that.

what I was trying to imply was had everything planned to begin with, this is how it would've gone down:


Kaguya would be the ultimate being (not Hagoromo first)

she would have 2 kids
yin - represents dark (black hair) Hagoromo
yang - represents light (white hair) Hamura

their kids would be the same in some variation (doesn't need to be strictly hair)
still concept of light and dark


the inconsistency began when everything was based on Naruto

you get Hagoromo and Ashura taking after Naruto

I mean if we're talking filler, just look at the filler on the otsutsuki. chidori and rasengan?

I was looking for consistencies and the consistent bits are

light and dark contrast

Toneri (missing piece of the puzzle as you have Uchiha and Senju on Hagoromo's side and only Hyuga on Hamura's)

 

[minamoto]

hmmm i already posted similar theory....but i said teh exageration of otsutsukis was retokned not teh otsutsukies themselves..

 

[Uverdore9]

Though I agree on your Uzumaki-Hamura relation.....I believe thier was no retcon.....whatsoever....but tbh..I've been waiting to post a theory but I couldnt find an explanation for one loophole....but your thread cleared that doubt of mine.....and about the parallelism...using manga colours is best....anime changes colours of hair, dress...etc..

 

[Jinrou]

I don't fully get your points but one thing i do know is that i absolutely disagree with your idea (or your trying to imply) that Main and Branch are different genetically.

Hyuga had black hair, doujutsu
Branch had white hair, chakra cloak/chain (manifestation)

All Hyuga have brown hair. (Except Hinata of course) And all Otsutsuki we've seen have white hair. The only difference between Main and Branch wrt Hyuga is that branch isn't allowed to learn powerful techniques simply because they were born second or born directly by branch members.

If we were to believe they were different genetically, that would mean someone like Hiashi's father and his wife have the ability to manipulate genes and ensured only Hiashi got Main genes and blocked off access to said genes for Hizashi. Don't think it makes sense.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

Indra and Ashura transmigrants were born among their respective descendant clans. That's evidence enough that the senju and uzumakis shared a much closer ancestor than Hagoromo or Hamura. As for the uzumaki's red hair then that is something they could've inherited from Hagoromo's red hair genes which were lying dormant within Ashura or through Ashura's wife who might've had red hairs just like others characters like Gaara.

Didn't read the entire OP. It'll be helpful if you add a summary.

 

[minamoto]

Indra and Ashura transmigrants were born among their respective descendant clans. That's evidence enough that the senju and uzumakis shared a much closer ancestor than Hagoromo or Hamura. As for the uzumaki's red hair then that is something they could've inherited from Hagoromo's red hair genes which were lying dormant within Ashura or through Ashura's wife who might've had red hairs just like others characters like Gaara.

Didn't read the entire OP. It'll be helpful if you add a summary.

this is a bull$hit Opinion...i think its better if i put u in ignorelist..

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

this is a bull$hit Opinion...i think its better if i put u in ignorelist..

@Bold Please do and I won't have to deal with your nonsense.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Since naruto was an ashura transmigrancy it's safe to say the uzumaki are descended from ashura

Also I'm a bit confused with your points are you only trying to argue uzumakis aren't related to hagoromo from what I can understand your asking why don't senju and uzumaki have red hair, hagoromo had reddish hair and I don't see them not having it proves the uzumaki aren't related. And I think your saying only naruto and toneris had chakra modes and they got it from something not natural specifically in the case if naruto.

I forgot to mention it here.

Hagoromo said that each transmigrant have always gone to war and each time ended the same.

Since we know that Senju and Uzumaki marry each other (Hashirama and Mito), there is a point that they actually mixed with each other's lineage.

So the whole transmigrant war with Indra and Ashura didn't continue. Sasuke and Naruto no longer embodied them but they are now Hagoromo's and Hamura's transmigrants which is confirmed by Kaguya

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As for the hair, you completely missed the point of the thread.

It addresses the many retcons that Kishi have done.
I said that Hagoromo's design was based on Naruto

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Hence his red hair.
Which threw the whole pattern of black and white (yin and yang)

then the same thing happened with Ashura (although he isn't as butchered as Hagoromo being closer to being Naruto)
but he does not have red hair here, neither does Indra

but the reason why everything became ruined is Hagoromo was the elder and Hamura was younger.

Hagoromo is supposedly Yin as he has the doujutsu and Hamura is Yang as he was the late bloomer
yet we get Sasuke (who is older) be Hamura's parallel and Naruto who is Hagoromo's parallel

we have Indra be older and be Yin and Ashura be Yang (no dojutsu) and be late bloomer.

also the reason why I brought up Toneri is that he has the chakra cloak.

The Senju did not have it. Nobody did.

I also made the connection with Momoshiki and Kinshiki as they still had consistency of the duality

Yin and Yang
yin being eyes yang being chakra (senjutsu or chakra cloak whatever you want)

main vs branch.

this is a consistent theme once Kishi had established the Otsutsuki family

black and white
yin and yang
sun and moon
star and crescent
older and younger
eye and chakra
rinnegan and tenseigan

the missing piece was Toneri or Hamura's branch

I made the connection that Uzumaki does not fit as they are a major clan and Toneri really resembled Naruto (again with parallel)

chakra cloak was the dead giveaway

Also you'd expect 4 families

Hagoromo - Uchiha and Senju (including Uzumaki here is wierd)
Hamura - Hyuga and ??? (open space for Uzumaki)

the panel where it states that the Uzumaki was blood relative yet it was distant does not confirm they are immediate Senju relative
which is why I pointed out that Hashirama marrying Mito and that the Uzumaki didn't join Konoha

again you have 3 families in Konoha (Senju, Uchiha, and Hyuga) 1 is still missing

If Naruto never had Kurama, he would still have the chakra chains from his mother (we know this is KKG as Karin also has this)

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Kinshiki has this as well but not strictly just chains. He has different chakra weaponry like an axe or blade

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[minamoto]

@Bold Please do and I won't have to deal with your nonsense.

then stop spereading nonsence and post logical opinions..

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

then stop spereading nonsence and post logical opinions..

You should take your own suggestion.

 

[minamoto]

You should take your own suggestion.

ok i tried to advice u like a friend but u think im hating on...keep posting ur BS opinion i dont care...but dont say minamoto didn't try to help me..

 

[wanderingcactus]

Indra and Ashura transmigrants were born among their respective descendant clans. That's evidence enough that the senju and uzumakis shared a much closer ancestor than Hagoromo or Hamura. As for the uzumaki's red hair then that is something they could've inherited from Hagoromo's red hair genes which were lying dormant within Ashura or through Ashura's wife who might've had red hairs just like others characters like Gaara.

Didn't read the entire OP. It'll be helpful if you add a summary.

It does get overwhelming.

TLR = thread discusses the retcons and explains what the desired finish product that Kishi wanted to arrived at by using parallels and symbols

Retcon#1: Hagoromo designed to be close to exact as Naruto
Retcon#2: Ashura designed to be Naruto but slightly different
Retcon#3: Hagoromo isn't the ultimate being, Kaguya is
Retcon#4: Hagoromo has a twin - Hamura
Retcon#5: Sasuke and Naruto aren't transmigrants of Indra and Ashura but of Hamura's and Hagoromo's, respectively
Retcon#6: Hamura's Path similar to Hagoromo's path = tenseigan

If Kishi had thought ahead, with the use of parallels and symbols that he likes we would have:

#1: Hagoromo with black long hair (Yin)
#2: Hamura would have white hair but shorter (Yang)
#3: Kaguya would have access to tenseigan, Sage Mode and Chakra Mode on her reveal
#4: Hagoromo's transmigrant is Sasuke and Hamura's is Naruto
#5: Ashura would not have a copycat power of Naruto but has Hashirama's power (would explain his OPness and the buddha statue being Ashura's ability)
#6: Tenseigan reveals more unique abilities (lazer thing was Hamura's.. it was lame that Toneri/Hanabi's was the same. rinnegan has limbo and ameno) and used more Paths to exhibits that he is also RS

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

ok i tried to advice u like a friend but u think im hating on...keep posting ur BS opinion i dont care...but dont say minamoto didn't try to help me..

Thanks for the advice. You could help me by adding me to teh ignore list....

It does get overwhelming.

TLR = thread discusses the retcons and explains what the desired finish product that Kishi wanted to arrived at by using parallels and symbols

Retcon#1: Hagoromo designed to be close to exact as Naruto
Retcon#2: Ashura designed to be Naruto but slightly different
Retcon#3: Hagoromo isn't the ultimate being, Kaguya is
Retcon#4: Hagoromo has a twin - Hamura
Retcon#5: Sasuke and Naruto aren't transmigrants of Indra and Ashura but of Hamura's and Hagoromo's, respectively
Retcon#6: Hamura's Path similar to Hagoromo's path = tenseigan

If Kishi had thought ahead, with the use of parallels and symbols that he likes we would have:

#1: Hagoromo with black long hair (Yin)
#2: Hamura would have white hair but shorter (Yang)
#3: Kaguya would have access to tenseigan, Sage Mode and Chakra Mode on her reveal
#4: Hagoromo's transmigrant is Sasuke and Hamura's is Naruto
#5: Ashura would not have a copycat power of Naruto but has Hashirama's power (would explain his OPness and the buddha statue being Ashura's ability)
#6: Tenseigan reveals more unique abilities (lazer thing was Hamura's.. it was lame that Toneri/Hanabi's was the same. rinnegan has limbo and ameno) and used more Paths to exhibits that he is also RS

Well you may be right but it depends entirely on how you see them. I personally don't find most of them to be retcons but rather possibilities and directions the story could've gone into. Kishi basically didn't overwrite most of them except for the Kaguya reveal imo.

 

[wanderingcactus]

Thanks for the advice. You could help me by adding me to teh ignore list....



Well you may be right but it depends entirely on how you see them. I personally don't find most of them to be retcons but rather possibilities and directions the story could've gone into. Kishi basically didn't overwrite most of them except for the Kaguya reveal imo.

It was really lame that Kaguya was written off like that. It should've ended with Madara and have Kaguya be a movie or the next series.

She really was held back. We never see her tenseigan (this existed at this point as he revealed that he was working on the last movie) nor she used some Senju tree summons. we kind have seen the "chakra mode" with the "gentle fists" but that's really far fetched.

also, the staff. I mean Hagoromo and Hamura had em, we never got to see its powers. Only Obito showcased them but that was short lived. What would've happened if Naruto stabbed her with the soul sword? We could've seen her story that way and what she was preparing all the Zetsus for.

 

[wanderingcactus]

hmmm i already posted similar theory....but i said teh exageration of otsutsukis was retokned not teh otsutsukies themselves..

would've loved to read that. Can you link me?