Kaguya's byakugan is not active look at her face. Its a Kekkei mora technique with a different name. It cannot be considered a feat of the byakugan. I actually believe byakugan has better ocular power and eyesight and theres proof it has precognition, but you are going overboard by saying byakugan is greater than tsukuyomi and kotoamatsukami, its greater than Susanoo but not greater than the former. Its just an attack based on Rinnesharingan jutsu and the hyuga clan took it as an example and created another jutsu to resemble it. Its like you're saying Alexander graham bell's phone and samsung galaxy S5(the phone Im using) are one and the same. Because he invented it. Thier mechanism nor inward infrastructure ever the same. You're linking two completely different things when people give proof, I know we can have some bias one time or other bit dont be too stubborn enough to not be open to manga facts which are very clear.
what does it take for Byakugan to surpass sharingan???????
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The fact its a different technique with a different name doesn't change the fact the databook says it is similar to the Hyuga technique which means the Hyuga's is a watered down version. Its the same way Obito says her dimension ability is similar to his. Clearly, his is the watered down version too.
And yes her byakugan wasn't activated but that's because all the clones were directly in front of her and doesn't negate that the instances where she breaches Sasuke's susanoo and Kakashi's, her byakugan was activated. Also, Hinata uses air palm without her byakugan in 614 and that doesn't discredit the fact its a byakugan related technique.
You've a point. But my point is both are not same and its further proven by its addition to the category of Kekkei mora rather a simple taijutsu or chakra released attack. Its an advanced jutsu which cannot be mastered by anyone who dont have the chakra fruit or is not the direct descendant like sage sixpaths. Kekkei mora terminology is rare in naruto, only two people have kekkei mora, i think only kaguya has that and even madara has the red colour eye but his one is not a kekkei mora. Can you give an answer for that? If every eye is the same just like madaras and kaguyas, why is madara rinnesharingan listed as not kekkei mora? Why is only kaguya sharinganrinnegan listed as kekkei mora? Because both are not same. They need various other requirements to perform a kekkei mora jutsu otherwise after these many years at least one hyuga wouldve shown it if that was possible. Thats like saying Nagatos rinnegan can block IT which is impossible otherwise zetsu wouldnt have been surprised by Sasuke blocking IT if he knew every rinnegan can block IT. Kamui is similar but totally different it is a sealed space which is not connected to any dimension, only someone with Kamui can bypass another kamui land user. Not even kaguya could bypass kamui with her space time ninjutsu. The only thing similar in hyuga and kaguya are that they are descendants and they devoloped a duplicate primitive version of the Kekkei mora Kaguya Technique to use it Practically just like Minato created Rasengan by observing the Tailed beast ball but can you say both are same?? No never never, tailed beast ball has the same method of spinning chakra like rasengan but its a common sense issue that Tailed beast ball has tailed beast yin and yang chakra in appriopriate ratio and not just ordinary plain chakra of normal humans. Thats how similarity works in naruto.
Good post man. Better than the other pitiful excuses others have given.
I checked. Kekkei Mora is a term that even the translators don't fully understand. Except you can tell me what exactly it means, i don't think its a valid point.
For instance.. according to you in the bold, "Kekkei Mora cannot be mastered by anyone who dont have the chakra fruit or is not the direct descendant like sage sixpaths". The Hyuga don't meet any of the requirements there and yet they have the Byakugan just like Kaguya and her Byakugan is listed as a Kekkei Mora according to the translators. No differences in abilities, no added sights.. Just the same visual abilities as a Hyuga's byakugan. If there were any differences, i'm pretty sure it would have been stated.
And your rasengan example is exactly the same logic i'm using and why Rasengan too can be considered a watered down version of the TBB. Either way, the DB can't say the techs are similar and x and y say they aren't similar and you'll expect me to believe x and y. Obviously there is a large difference in power between these techs (Tbb-rasengan, Kamui-dimension jumping, Vacuum attack-Vacuum palm) but there is no denying there are similarities.
Shogo Makishima
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You've a valid point bro. The definition of Kekkei mora is as of yet unknown and if I say "kekkei mora is special jutsu" there is no point because it hasnt been established as fact. But I think there is another alternative for situations like this. I will start with the meaning of kekkei genkai. Kekkei genkai means bloodline limit.
Something which can only be transfered through blood relations. The analogy goes like this only uchiha can awaken sharingan and only hyuga can awaken byakugan. It can only be passed onto the next generation through blood and not through teaching. then there is Kekkei Tota which onoki and muu uses. Kekkei tota means Bloodline Selection. It can only be learned by selective people and the analogy goes like this if there are plants of a specific species for example lemon then only lemon plants can create or give birth to a lemon no way mango tree creates a lemon by miracle. but there is an exception. Plants can give birth to fruits with multiple traits in one and that process is called hybridisation. Mango fruit can get the sour flavour of lemon by combining both of the lemon plant and mango trees DNA. So selectively we can make some plants get the traits of other plants by a scientific artificial process. The same analogy goes for kekkei tota. It cannot be mastered by all bloodline having clans but only by people handpicked among several people from different clans. Another analogy is if a class contains 20 geniuses and among that set of 20 only 10 people are excellent only in brain related department like IT companies and chess games while 8 others are only geniuses in physical department like football and volleyball and gymnastics and swimming. Then there are 2 people in the set of geniuses who are geniuses and equally talented in both categories both brain work and physical department. The 2 people can learn kekkei tota while kekkei genkai can be learned by all 20 selective geniuses. Then we can go on to Kekkei mora which is not defined as of yet but I think it can be concluded through analyzing what we have now. A smoke doesnt happen without a fire thats the same analogy Im using here. Kekkei mora means Bloodline encompassing. The meaning of encompass is all covering and all including. It contains all things of a given set. In other words jack of all trades. In our real world someone with Kekkei mora can master all jobs. It contains every trait. Meaning of Encompass.
en·com·pass
inˈkəmpəs,enˈkəmpəs/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: encompassing
1.
surround and have or hold within.
"a vast halo encompassing the Milky Way galaxy"
sinonim: surround, enclose, encircle, circumscribe, bound, border; Lainnya
literarygird, engird;
rarecompass
"the apartment buildings encompass common recreational grounds, complete with swimming pool and tennis court"
include comprehensively.
"no studies encompass all aspects of medical care"
sinonim: cover, embrace, include, incorporate, take in, contain, comprise, involve, deal with, range across; formalcomprehend
"the debates encompassed a vast range of subjects"
2.
archaic
cause (something) to take place.
"an act designed to encompass the death of the king"
All the above are meanings and synonymous of encompass. The definition of encompass implies the kekkei mora is the combination of all the attributes of all the clans kaguya is the ancestor of. so its not singularly hyugas jutsu or senju jutsu or uchiha or uzumaki jutsu. It is a jutsu made of all the traits of all the clans as the definition suggests. Her air palm contains attributes of all clans her ash bone contain attributes of all clans her gudodama contain all KKG and elements and her hair needle technique contains attributes of all clans. 10% hyuga 10% uchiha 10% senju 10% uzumaki 10% juugo clan (because she was adapted to senjutsu of jubi) 10% otsutsuki clan. Kekkei mora contains all kekkei genkai of clans whom are descendants of kaguya in appriopriate ratio just like bijuudama contains ratio of yin and yang. So we have come to the conclusion that no KKM is one single bloodline or simple chakra release but rather a combination of multiple KKG of descendant clans.
About why hyuga byakugan and kaguya byakugan are different is a vaild point and theres an instance where kaguyas one has proved to be much advanced than say nejis byakugan as she couldnt see through the transformation jutsu even though we know byakugan only sees the tenketsu and chakra points and chakra of victim. Possibly kaguyas byakugan can see both the outside and inside at the same time? She was also confused on which was the real clone among narutos clones and which was the real one and ultimately naruto succeeded in tricking her. I think she sees both outside and inside at the same time so she got embarassed at the transformation jutsu. It seems she was confused by narutos outside trickery of acting and his inside chakra tenketsu and couldnt really pinpoint who was the real one despite neji being able to differentiate narutos clones at chuunin exams. Thats why its probably considered kekkei mora as it is a step more advanced than byakugan which is a kekkei genkai. Also the hyuga taijutsu is not a byakugan technique but rather just chakra release and controlling which can be taught but is kept secret in the clan.
The ultimate difference is kaguya's jutsu are also Kekkei mora and not just chakra release. Hyugas jutsu are not kekkei genkai but simply chakra release a secret jutsu. That is the difference. Both her eye and jutsu are KKM while hyugas byakugan is KKG and techniques are chakra release and Not KKG. Hyugas inherited just the portion of her byakugan which sees the inside and just duplicated her famed KKM jutsu to be practically applied by chakra release and control as proven by it not considered a KKG or KKM. Its a duplicated jutsu which is only similar in mechanism not the content. Just like yellow paint can look like gold but we know the yellow paint has no value in comparison to gold nor are they same. Rasengan comparison is also like this both are same mechanisms of application that is by rotating chakra violently but the content of both the jutsu are different one is yin and yang chakra one is mental energy and physical energy.
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Hinata's Byakugan also isn't on when she uses Air Palm or Twin Lion Fists. Madara used Susano'O without his eye balls for crying out loud.
It's a KKM because it's Kaguya. Her Byakugan is ALSO a KKM. And the name difference is due to the increased power and shape manipulation, much like how Air Palms goes to being called Air Wall Palm or Rasengan goes to being called Giant Rasengan when more power is added.
It's a Gentle Fist technique and is directly compared to Air Palm, so yes, it is a Byakugan ability.
Cool.
I'm simply using manga facts here actually. Kabuto avoided Tsukyomi from Itachi by using his snake eye lids to block Itachi's sight, but still see through in order to fight. The Byakugan would do the same: Use the eyelids to block visual genjutsu and use X-Ray vision to fight like normal.
Kotoamatsumi's commands can be countered and defied, as shown by Itachi, and it is also said KA is an influence, not a mind control, and influences can be fought against through sheer will power. And as shown by Ao and Hinata, Byakugan can tell when genjutsu is in use whether it be on themselves or on others.
No it isn't. Not a single one of Kaguya's offensive abilities come from the RenniSharingan. Be it Vacuum Attack, her hair, her bones, or even her Truth Seeker Orbs, nothing in terms of offensive power is from the RenniSharingan. It only provides dimension travelling abilities.
And the Sharingan wielding Uchiha didn't? Cool, I guess that proves it is a Byakugan technique as only the Byakugan-wielding Hyuga were able to replicate it.
I'm not the one linking Vacuum Attack and Vacuum Palm, Kishimoto is: He compares the two techniques, says Kaguya used Gentle Fist, and classifies Vacuum Attack as a Taijutsu much like Vacuum Palm. They're the same in basis but Vacuum Attack, unlike Vacuum Palm, uses more power and shape manipulation.
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This can also be twisted in an other way. If byakugan isnt necessary for air palm then what connection does it have to kaguya other than duplicating kaguyas jutsu? Since all you do is link every feat of kaguya to hyugas just because kaguya has the byakugan.
Still its stated giant rasengan or not any othet unfamiliar unsimilar name. Eighty gods Vacuum attack has extremely little similarity to Air palm. All of her jutsu are KKM because hyugas who can only use taijutsu cannot use it no matter what. They have KKG which thier eye and simple taijutsu with chakra release.
A duplicate will always be compared to original. Rasengan and tailed beast ball has same mechanism but different content. One has yin and yang chakra and one is pure human chakra.
Ok cool.
If closing eyes and using X-ray vision was possible, then why were they under uchiha? Why do they always open eyes even though they only see tenketsu and not physical outer body? Itachi wasnt even going to hurt him as he said "sasuke dont hurt kabuto...". He never used spirit weapons or mass Shinobi alliance control genjutsu on kabuto.
They cant see KA when its used on them.
Yeah probably you are right they dont come from her rinnesharingan but they are a KKM jutsu which cannot be mastered by hyugas unless they have all the bloodline limits of kaguya. All the bloodlines of her descendants clans. You are claiming and typing this stuff as if you know what kekkei mora even means to label it off as nothing more than a name but guess what kekkei more means all blood encompassing limit. That means kaguya contains all the bloodlines powers of her descendant clans and infuses them in her KKM attacks.
...........Kaguya is the creator of gentle fist and hyugas duplicated it because they dont have every bloodlines.
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Both are Gentle Fist techniques (Vacuum Palm and Vacuum Attack) and thus are connected to the Byakugan, whether one needs Byakugan activated or not is irrelevant as Hinata has already used two Gentle Fist techniques without having Byakugan activates, just as Madara and Itachi can use Susano'O without activating M. Sharingan.
I'm not linking all of Kaguya's techniques to Hyugas, just the Vacuum Attack which Kishimoto himself links to the Hyuga's Vacuum Palm.
Vacuum Attack and Vacuum Palm are both very similiar actually. Both load Chakra into the fists and thin release them, difference is Kaguya adds far more chara and shape manipulation. Just like with Rasengan and Rasenshuriken.
Okay, but this is about whether Vacuum Attack is a Gentle Fist ability
Just because Hyugas have some counters to the Uchiha doesn't make them stronger. Shino's bugs would likely also be able to counter Sharingan Genjutsu like what Tailed Beasts do for their hosts, but that doesn't mean the Aburama are superior.
Because there's no reason to close their eyes.
That's beside the point.
They would since even a 2 Tomoe Sharingan from Obito was able to see disturbances in Rin's Chakra flow when she was in a Genjutsu, so unless you have proof Kotoamatsumi can prevent or block Byakugan's insight into Chakra flow, a Byakugan user will naturally tell if they are in a Genjutsu using their eyes.
I never said Vacuum Attack can be used by Hyugas, I said Vacuum Attack is a Byakugan/Gentle Fist technique.
KKM was never given a proper explanation or what it is, so until that happens, using it as an arguign point is meaningless. All we know is that Kaguya and maybe Hagoromo have KKMs.
This has nothing to do with my argument as I am simply saying Vacuum Attack is a stronger version of Vacuum Palm just as Rasenshuriken is a stronger version of Rasengan.
.......They are KKM and yes we can rub two brain cells together and figure out what a foreign concept is. We shouldnt necessarily sit around waiting for the author. Its called using logic. KKG only clans. KKT only selective people as only onoki and muu can use it. KKM only people who has all the traits of all thier descendant clans as kaguya is the mother so her byakugan and middle eye is composed of all clan attributes. Its a fact you cant deny.
Yeah youre not linking you are establishing things as fact when the actual fact says its not fact.
No they are not. Vaccum 80 gods attack contains all the bloodlines of all clans like Kaguyas TSB contain all bloodline elements defined by Black zetsu himself.
This isnt about whether vaccuum attack is a gentle fist ability but rather whether air palm isnt a duplicated ability or not.
They probably can but uchiha can burn the insects and use sharingan genjutsu with enough skill it cant be broken. Face it instead of avoiding the question. Why was hyuga 《《《《 uchiha?
Why open even? They can finish every fight by looking at tenketsu alone all the while resting.
You brought it up as feat. Face the consequences. Dont jump in a well you cant climb effortlessly afterwards.
Are you skipping the point? Outsider byakugan user can see comrade genjutsu trap but not when the byakugan user himself is in a genjutsu. Prove it isnt otherwise KA wouldnt be hyped up so far. Itachi resisting it is not linkable. Find me a ninja who can control the alliance without being detected by sensors and from long range until then this shouldnt be used as an argument. This is the same way you use to connect hyuga and kaguya because of a mere eye. Thats why you keep losing sound arguments. You are clouded by bias.
Vaccum attack isnt a hyuga jutsu it was duplicated by normal hyugas because they dont have the same KKM(all bloodline encompassing is the english name for KKM) as kaguya and therefore cant use her KKM jutsu. Its a duplicate.
KKM was never given a proper explanation or what it is, so until that happens, using it as an arguign point is meaningless. All we know is that Kaguya and maybe Hagoromo have KKMs.[/QUOTE]
We have a head and a brain inside. We humans can connect dots which are extremely likely to be a fact. Its as if youre saying rinnegan isnt descendant from kaguya because director never blantantly says it. They are not meaningless to logical people. KKG is bloodline limit KKT is bloodline selection KKM is all bloodline encompassing. Encompassing means containing all bloodlines of her descendants.
We have a head and a brain inside. We humans can connect dots which are extremely likely to be a fact. Its as if youre saying rinnegan isnt descendant from kaguya because director never blantantly says it. They are not meaningless to logical people. KKG is bloodline limit KKT is bloodline selection KKM is all bloodline encompassing. Encompassing means containing all bloodlines of her descendants.
Its not a stronger version rather a real version while air palm is a duplicate crafted by hyuga leaders because they have zero KKM. And you are wrong no byakugan gives air palm as a gift or KKG jutsu. air palm is a mere taijutsu mastered through training. The only reason only hyuga can use it is because only they can see tenketsu.
unknownvillain1254
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No it isn't. Her Byakugan is no different in abilities than what any other Hyuga or other Ootsutsukis have shown.
Says what exactly?
No it doesn't, no where is this ever said.
So do you agree Vacuum Attack is a Gentle Fist ability?
It is a duplicate/weaker version of Kaguya's ability, yes.
I just gave you your answer. Having counters here and there doesn't make them superior overall. That's even if we are assuming the Hyuga were called the strongest only after Uchihas death, which there is no confirmation of.
Don't know, maybe because it's human instinct to keep your eyes open or maybe because there is no reason to have their eyes closed if their is no Genjutsu threat, but that doesn't change the bottom line that Sharingan Genjutsu and Tsukyomi won't work on Byakugan users much like what Kabuto did.
Like I said, that is besides the point. Whether Itachi was going to hurt him or not doesn't matter as Kabuto was still able to avoid Genjutsu with his eye lids closed as Itachi and Sasuke even acknowledge this.
Wrong. In the Itachi Pursuit Arc, Hinata uses her Byakugan to see if Tobi is a genjutsu or not, since she assumed she was caught in one, but found out that she was completely fine, meaning yes, Byakugan users can use their eyes to see whether they are in Genjutsu or not, and Ao has shown the power of the Byakugan's insight can see through Kotoamatsumi and even Obito's Jinchuriki-controlling Genjutsu.
Yes it is as Itachi was able to defy it's commands due to being aware he is stuck in it's influence, the Byakugan would allow the user to become aware of Kotoamatsumi's influence and defy it's orders likewise.
How is this relevant to anything?
Hyuga and Kaguya are connected though, they are both Byakugan users.
Never said it is a Hyuga techniques, I said it is a Byakugan technique.
Well, at the end of the day, Vacuum Attack is still a Byakugan technique, even though I personally disagree with your explanation, though I do agree the explanation itself is reasonable.
Air Palm is called a Kekkai Genkai, so yes, it is in fact a genetic ability from the Byakugan.
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This. Kaguyas omnyoudon and gudodama contain all natures and bloodline limits. Its a kekkei mora gudoudama to zetsu. Therefore officially proven what KKM is. Her other attacks contain all bloodline limits like her KKM tsb. Like her KKM gudoudama.
Wow.
Disagree with your main points though. The fact it is blood encompassing doesn't mean each and every ability/chakra of every clan in the series is incorporated in all her techniques. I don't think that is logical in anyway. How does Akimichi chakra/abilities help her destroy chakra? How does Inuzuka chakra/abilities help her jump dimensions? How does Sarutobi chakra/abilities help her eject bones?
She has all the clans powers but that doesn't mean they are intertwined imo. Every clan/Shinobi etc inherited one or two things from her. That theirs is watered down doesn't mean it is different from the main thing.
Dimension jumping is an ability of the RinneSharingan. Seeing Chakra points is because of Byakugan. Wrecking chakra constructs is because of Gentle fist. Ejecting her bones is an ability the Kaguya clan inherited. The translators could have used the literal translation of blood encompassing also. But they didn't. There's a reason why don't you think?
About why hyuga byakugan and kaguya byakugan are different is a vaild point and theres an instance where kaguyas one has proved to be much advanced than say nejis byakugan as she couldnt see through the transformation jutsu even though we know byakugan only sees the tenketsu and chakra points and chakra of victim. Possibly kaguyas byakugan can see both the outside and inside at the same time? She was also confused on which was the real clone among narutos clones and which was the real one and ultimately naruto succeeded in tricking her. I think she sees both outside and inside at the same time so she got embarassed at the transformation jutsu. It seems she was confused by narutos outside trickery of acting and his inside chakra tenketsu and couldnt really pinpoint who was the real one despite neji being able to differentiate narutos clones at chuunin exams. Thats why its probably considered kekkei mora as it is a step more advanced than byakugan which is a kekkei genkai. Also the hyuga taijutsu is not a byakugan technique but rather just chakra release and controlling which can be taught but is kept secret in the clan
- Bold 1. What?
- Underlined 1. Never happened. Neji states he couldn't tell the difference himself and even if it did, doesn't that put Hyuga byakugan over Kaguya's? lol
- Bold 2. You didn't prove this.
- Underlined 2. Incorrect.
PS What in your opinion does the DB then mean when it says the technique is similar with Vacuum palm except there's a wide gulf in power?
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Wrong translation.
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As you can see, no mention of encompassing all Blood line limits. Kishimoto even admitted that her TSB having wood in it was a mistake and removed it in the volume rerelease.
Even if her TSB did have all bloodline limits, that doesn't mean her Byakugan does, just as her Dead Bone Pulse doesn't have all KKGs.
Shogo Makishima
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Genjutsu, taijutsu enhancement, ninjutsu abilities. It's overall the better dojutsu
I will admit I was wrong in the clan combination. But still bloodline encompassing cannot mean anything other than containing all bloodline KKG. Incorporating elements into a jutsu and making a whole new jutsu is possible like kaguya incorporated kekkei genkai and elements in her gudodama. Vacuum attack also contains all KKG and nature release existing in the world as its listed as KKM. Now the translator does say increase in power and wide gulf but its not simply logical to say a KKM jutsu is just different from a chakra release taijutsu because of just power and force. I just dont think thats logical. I think conditions work here more than pure force and raw power. The analogy goes like if a man has strength of a thousand giants but in front of a laptop which is password protected he cannot hope to unlock it no matter how raw powerful he is. I think conditions and terms of jutsu requirements are important here otherwise the director couldve simply said just an increase in power or brute force and cancelled KKM part and erased the "similar to gentle fist" part and couldve written "its the same jutsu as gentle fist and the only difference is wide gap of power which can be achieved through fierce training and chakra control........"
I just dont think thats very logical to say because then we are indirectly saying obito gudodama is same as kaguya but zetsu clearly stated its different because of the combination of KKG of all bloodline limits and the DB says kaguyas TSB is kekkei mora but excludes madaras TSB. There are elemental infusions in eighty gods jutsu and not just chakra release and power and acquirement of all KKG is necessary to achieve control of that jutsu. Kaguya has all bloodline limits that is why only she has used that jutsu. The maximum jutsu is lion fist and rotation which was shown by normal hyuga and they are only taijutsu techniques not a KKG or KKT or KKM. Just taijutsu techniques like lee and gais.