I read one of the old threads and so many of the fanboys...

[Ansatsuken]

Travel and attack speed is not winning a fight when the opponent can react to your attacks. Let me give you an example; a car moves at 160 km per hour. The car is trying to smash into me. My reaction speed is equal to the speed of the car but my running speed is equal to 130 km per hour. Will I be able to react before the car hits me? Yes. You get my point. In fact, Travel speed is useless in a fight where your opponent has better Reaction speed than you. Why? Because the opponent will keep dodging all of your attacks even if you're faster than him.

HAHA please dont bring semantic here bcus it wont work in this situation. First for your logic to work you need to know how fast is Hashirama reaction speed. Hashirama never fought someone that is fast as Tobirama or Minato in Shunshin speed and FTG. Madara is not the fastest man in his era so the reaction spedf of Hashirama ties to Madara attack speed and they can be say as equal. But how much fast is Hashirama reaction speed is for you to tell me. We already know that Minato Shunshin speed is mile above Hashirama so Hashirama needs to have reaction speed on par with Minato shunshin speed. Edo Madara is above EMS Madara in every aspect so you cant use him for a benchmark. He got body modifications and power upgrade. But he need alive body to access his body full power but Edo still more powerful than EMS.

When Hashirama is still alive he is on par with EMS Madara but as edo Madara managed to pierced his body with 6 black rods Hashirama reaction speed is not on par with Edo Madara. So A as a benchmark is out of picture.

I brought up Hanzo to prove that Shunshin is seperate from Foot speed movement. Hanzo used a hand seal to mold chakra which makes Shunshin a ninjutsu, While footspeed is equivalent to running.

Why its matter to differentiate between Foot speed and Shunshin? Minato will use his best speed to get closer to Hashi, either Shunshin or FTG.

I'm not a kid with all this useless explanation.

Tobirama was considered fastest because of Hiraishin. Not only because of footspeed. Both Minato and Tobirama are called the best because of Hiraishin, not shunshin

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Why its matter to know about that fact? As it being proven that Minato is faster than Hashirama in speed. And of course Hiraishin is much faster than what Hashirama can offer bcus its instant movement. And added fact that only Juubi jin can reacted to Kunai FTG but couldn't react to body Mark FTG makes Minato more than capable to Speed Blitz Hashirama. Only JJ has reaction speed to counter FTG user surprise appearance and follow up attack. But it depends on the type of FTG in use. It little easier to react to Kunai FTG than Body mark FTG. JJ Obito failed to counter Tobirama FTG near him and Naruto Rasengan attack devised by Tobirama.

And we all can agree that Hashirama doesn't have reaction speed on the level of JJ. So Minato has great chance to catch Hashirama by surprise.

Hashirama admit that JJ is out of his league.

Tobirama failed in blindspotting Madara with Hiraishin, not Shunshin. So his feats are mediocre vs Rinne Madara. Minato has to place the tag on Hashi which is not happening when Hashi has a higher Reaction speed than him, especially considering an Edo madara who is weaker than original reacted to full speed Raikage.

It because all the body modifications and heighten Sensing skill he has. He is far above Edo and EMS Madara and also far above Hashirama. So no surprise. Plus you cant say Tobirama performance is mediocre vs Rinn Madara. Most of the fight happen off panel so we unable to make a conclusion. But for me he fight on par with someone who just below JJ in speed department. Minato is very capable to tag Hashirama and place FTG mark on him or just go straight killing by stabing him or slash his body from behind. Minato's kunai throwing skill is not to be underestimate here.

Again please provide a proof on Hashi reacting on someone the level of Tobirama, Minato or JJ in speed.

I dont think there is a scan in which Tobirama fights Madara with Shunshin but only Hiraishin

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Hiraishingiri could be Shunshin plus Kunai. Bcus in Tobiramas time FTG V2 not invented yet. To get that near to Madara Tobirama must mark his body but there's no FTG mark on Madaras body so how Tobi reached Madara that fast? He is using Shunshin. Also there is no body mark on Izunas body when Tobi performed Hiraishingiri.

Sharingan does only not read movements. It sees images of the opponent's next move, before the opponent can strike. Refer Sasuke vs Naruto Valley of end part 1 fight. Its explained there. Reaction speed is covered and hashi wins in that area. Shunshin needs chakra buildup which hashi will sense and dodge then put up wood dragon or Golem. Then proceed to SS. V2 A is far faster than Minato and has far faster reaction. Minato needed kunai FTG to dodge A's full speed attack. If Edo madara can react to that and Hashirama can CQC evenly with Living madara, Then he can obviously react to Minato's attack and dodge it. FTG wouldnt work without a tag which hashirama wont allow him to put in his body. And when he takes upto the sky, Minato wont be able to catch, not only that, Hashi would catch him with the golem's hands or SS hands, because V2 A was blocked by Madaras weaker Susanoo in edo form. In fact, the one whose getting blitzed is Minato, when minato closes in, Hashi dodges and blitzes him considering the fact he CQC matched Madara's precognition, Touching and overpowering Minato is far less of a deal to hashi.

It read and see the possibility of further movements. Hashi not covered anything here stop being desperate. Also show me the scan of EMS Madara fought with Hashi in CqC. They only fight in CqC when their chakra exhausted. They can no longer using big Jutsu.

Other point you mentioned are pointless and just a pipe dream that is not practical.

Hashirama CQC'ed Living Madara in valley of the end fight in EMS days. That Madara had EMS to see through moves and see images of fast moving objects. Rinne madara still dont have precognition so he is infact a little slower than EMS madara in reaction time. So hashirama will outblitz Minato when Minato comes to blitz.

So what's this proved again? It means nothing. Edo is more powerful than EMS Madara as Edo can used more super jutsu than EMS Madara. Hashi was sure fought with Madara many times in the past but he never fought someone on the level of Minato, 3rd Raikage, Tobirama or JJ who are speed demon. So dont use EMS Madara for benchmark.

Sasuke also known as speedster but Minato arrived first at Obito to stop Kakashi before Sasuke. Most of Minato feats were shown when he is an Edo. And do you forget that Minato can access KCM mode that can increase his physical speed and Shunshin plus SM also?

Hashi being chose by people not bcus of his physical stats but his level of chakra and Larger than life Jutsus. Stop this status quo.

 

[Solarmoth]

HAHA please dont bring semantic here bcus it wont work in this situation. First for your logic to work you need to know how fast is Hashirama reaction speed. Hashirama never fought someone that is fast as Tobirama or Minato in Shunshin speed and FTG. Madara is not the fastest man in his era so the reaction spedf of Hashirama ties to Madara attack speed and they can be say as equal. But how much fast is Hashirama reaction speed is for you to tell me. We already know that Minato Shunshin speed is mile above Hashirama so Hashirama needs to have reaction speed on par with Minato shunshin speed. Edo Madara is above EMS Madara in every aspect so you cant use him for a benchmark. He got body modifications and power upgrade. But he need alive body to access his body full power but Edo still more powerful than EMS.

Edo is more powerful in the sense he got Hashirama's sage mode. Before he got sage mode, he was weaker than his original form and he didnt use EMS foresight to see through moves yet he reacted and blocked the fastest man alive at that time who is faster than minato and tobirama. I dont need to know How fast hashi is, I just have to understand madaras reaction speed and compare it to the person who outmatched Madara's footspeed and EMS foresight.

When Hashirama is still alive he is on par with EMS Madara but as edo Madara managed to pierced his body with 6 black rods Hashirama reaction speed is not on par with Edo Madara. So A as a benchmark is out of picture.

Hashirama is weaker form in edo than his original self and Madara has body modifications which matched to Hashirama's weaker Edo strength.

Why its matter to differentiate between Foot speed and Shunshin? Minato will use his best speed to get closer to Hashi, either Shunshin or FTG.

I'm not a kid with all this useless explanation.

Minato has only 1 running feat. All other of his speed feats are relying on Shunshin. Shunshin requires chakra gathering. FtG requires seal marking. Minato cannot do these when Hashi has the reaction speed and sensing capability.


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Why its matter to know about that fact? As it being proven that Minato is faster than Hashirama in speed. And of course Hiraishin is much faster than what Hashirama can offer bcus its instant movement. And added fact that only Juubi jin can reacted to Kunai FTG but couldn't react to body Mark FTG makes Minato more than capable to Speed Blitz Hashirama. Only JJ has reaction speed to counter FTG user surprise appearance and follow up attack. But it depends on the type of FTG in use. It little easier to react to Kunai FTG than Body mark FTG. JJ Obito failed to counter Tobirama FTG near him and Naruto Rasengan attack devised by Tobirama.

And we all can agree that Hashirama doesn't have reaction speed on the level of JJ. So Minato has great chance to catch Hashirama by surprise.

Hashirama admit that JJ is out of his league.

Hashirama admitted hes weaker than JJ. Tobirama caught JJ with hiraishin. But minato cant use seal-less hiraishin. Minato has to mark hashirama before using ftg on him. Which hashirama will not allow him to. Shunshin blitz is countered by sage mode sensing, the exact same sensing which Madara used to counter Tobirama's much faster Hiraishingiri.

It because all the body modifications and heighten Sensing skill he has. He is far above Edo and EMS Madara and also far above Hashirama. So no surprise. Plus you cant say Tobirama performance is mediocre vs Rinn Madara. Most of the fight happen off panel so we unable to make a conclusion. But for me he fight on par with someone who just below JJ in speed department. Minato is very capable to tag Hashirama and place FTG mark on him or just go straight killing by stabing him or slash his body from behind. Minato's kunai throwing skill is not to be underestimate here.

Minato's kunai throwing skill is indeed fast but you're not seeing one point here: EMS madara blocked A at his full speed. Minato threw his kunai just before 4th raikage hit him. So kunai speed is slightly greater than 4th raikage speed. But if edo madara can react to 4th raikage in his weaker form and without his EMS precognition, and hashirama could react and match him in CQC even though in exhausted form, can't Hashirama react to Minato easily? As madara himself said, Living madara is far stronger and much more faster and reactive than Edo madara. Living madara also used his precognition to see movements beforehand, an advantage the rinnegan madara didnt have, yet he reacted to full speed RaiKage, who is much faster than Minato and Tobirama. What do you think an alive Madara let alone someone who matched him in CQC will be capable of?

Again please provide a proof on Hashi reacting on someone the level of Tobirama, Minato or JJ in speed.

EMS madara has EMS precognition and speed than edo madara and hashirama matched him. Tobiramas ftg is not minatos ftg so tobiramas feat dont apply to minato. Also if minato uses shunshin he must gather his chakra and hashirama will sense it. And evade it. Hashirsma is an excellent sensor.


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Hiraishingiri could be Shunshin plus Kunai. Bcus in Tobiramas time FTG V2 not invented yet. To get that near to Madara Tobirama must mark his body but there's no FTG mark on Madaras body so how Tobi reached Madara that fast? He is using Shunshin. Also there is no body mark on Izunas body when Tobi performed Hiraishingiri.

Tobirama can use ftg without seals, that's why.

It read and see the possibility of further movements. Hashi not covered anything here stop being desperate. Also show me the scan of EMS Madara fought with Hashi in CqC. They only fight in CqC when their chakra exhausted. They can no longer using big Jutsu.

Other point you mentioned are pointless and just a pipe dream that is not practical.

I think you're right, there's only one scan where they fought and that was when they were exhausted. But the difference is both were exhausted so thier speed measurement is equal. Madara had the EMS to see Hashirama's movements before he could make the move. In the speed aspect, Edo madara is weaker than Living madara. Reason is, EMS lets him see the opponents movements before they make the movement. Edo madara never had that advantage and he weaker in the speed department than his original self.

So what's this proved again? It means nothing. Edo is more powerful than EMS Madara as Edo can used more super jutsu than EMS Madara. Hashi was sure fought with Madara many times in the past but he never fought someone on the level of Minato, 3rd Raikage, Tobirama or JJ who are speed demon. So dont use EMS Madara for benchmark.

Tobirama was a speed demon because of Hiraishin. Hiraishin is not footspeed but tobirama can use it without seals. Only minato need seals for hiraishin. That is why I said Minato cant use hiraishin easily like Tobirama without placing tag seals.

Sasuke also known as speedster but Minato arrived first at Obito to stop Kakashi before Sasuke. Most of Minato feats were shown when he is an Edo. And do you forget that Minato can access KCM mode that can increase his physical speed and Shunshin plus SM also?

Wrong. Sasuke used base speed, Minato used hiraishin. There's a difference.

Hashi being chose by people not bcus of his physical stats but his level of chakra and Larger than life Jutsus. Stop this status quo.

Agree.