1 Rinnegan SM Madara vs Healthy Nagato

[AlphaMaleLion]

This isn't a superior version to EMS Madara...

Yes he is ,with 1 limbo he is above EMS Madara

OT: unbalanced match up. Even EMS Madara stomps

 

[Mellanoma]

Rinnengan can see Limbo can't it?

I believe Madara can beat Nagato but it would be an awesome fight.

 

[Lord Tywin]

This isn't a superior version to EMS Madara...

He is. Rinnegan gives him rikudo’s chakra which amplify him greatly. Madara could use legged susanoo without eyes. With a rinnegan he’d be much stronger than his EMS self. And add mokuton to it on the top

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Rinnegan cannot see limbo. Otherwise madara wouldn't be so surprised despite seeing a rinnegan in Sasuke's socket. He said no individual in NV earth should be capable of seeing him despite seeimg Sasuke's rinnegan. Which proves he knows rinnegan can't see it, and went onto say "Sasuke and I might share a connection beyond blood...".

 

[Lord Tywin]

Rinnegan cannot see limbo. Otherwise madara wouldn't be so surprised despite seeing a rinnegan in Sasuke's socket. He said no individual in NV earth should be capable of seeing him despite seeimg Sasuke's rinnegan. Which proves he knows rinnegan can't see it, and went onto say "Sasuke and I might share a connection beyond blood...".

Are you really dyslexic or just putting up an act?

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Madara was able to use kamui as a jinchuuriki while obito could not

Another plot hole in odas swiss cheese of a story

 

[Ambivalence]

What...?

What ''what''? 1RG SM Madara's full power = V3 Susano'o. EMS Madara's full power = PS (or PS-Kurama since it's technically his summon). Whatever bonus the former gets from Sage Mode and Rikudou chakra will definitely not make his V3 comparable to PS in either defense or power.

Limbo is irrelevant assuming Madara starts in at least a ribcage.

 

[Hakke]

What ''what''? 1RG SM Madara's full power = V3 Susano'o. EMS Madara's full power = PS (or PS-Kurama since it's technically his summon). Whatever bonus the former gets from Sage Mode and Rikudou chakra will definitely not make his V3 comparable to PS in either defense or power.

Limbo is irrelevant assuming Madara starts in at least a ribcage.

What? Where was it stated that SM 1 Rinnegan Madara can't use PS?

And how is Limbo irrelevant? Even if we assumed that EMS Madara would be starting with ribcage, what feats does ribcage have that suggests that it wouldn't be broken through by limbo's physical strength that was able to knock several bijuus?

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

SM madara cannot use PS because of his lack of control over SM. He is not as proficient as Hashirama. Controlling both is tough.

 

[Ambivalence]

What? Where was it stated that SM 1 Rinnegan Madara can't use PS?

Huh? :lol The full power of the Mangekyo/Rinnegan-evolved Sharingan is only available when both eyes are present. This is true as per canon statement by Obito, also somewhat stated through Itachi's databook entry. EMS Madara's full power is PS. 1RG Madara has only manifested a V3, only performed Chibaku Tensei - the most destructive Rinnegan technique - after he gained his second Rinnegan. All the other time he was fighting with mostly melee and his Limbo clone.

PS has never been shown to be used by someone with just one eye. Sasuke, Madara, Kakashi - all of them were dual Mangekyo users. The most a single eye has shown is V3.

Dual Rinnegan SM Madara would be a completely different story, but without that one Rinnegan? Nope. The difference between the two is massive and

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, has also been displayed on panel - Madara was getting his ass handed to him by Naruto and Sasuke and was forced to retreat. As soon as he retrieved his second eye, the tables flipped completely. Hell, he went from 1 Limbo clone to 5, in addition to showcasing one of the most destructive jutsus in the series: it's quite clear his power is multiplied numerously with both eyes, downgraded severely with just one.

I didn't think there was still someone who didn't know PS requires dual Mangekyo/Rinnegan.

And how is Limbo irrelevant? Even if we assumed that EMS Madara would be starting with ribcage, what feats does ribcage have that suggests that it wouldn't be broken through by limbo's physical strength that was able to knock several bijuus?

- Knocked several bijus and did no actual damage.
- Equally trading hits with RSM Naruto without doing any damage to him
- Smacked back Sasuke and Sakura and did no actual damage to them

Gonna hand me the scan where Limbo clones have been shown to possess CES Tsunade level of blunt force, which is the minimal required to breach ribcage?

 

[Hakke]

Huh? :lol The full power of the Mangekyo/Rinnegan-evolved Sharingan is only available when both eyes are present. This is true as per canon statement by Obito, also somewhat stated through Itachi's databook entry. EMS Madara's full power is PS. 1RG Madara has only manifested a V3, only performed Chibaku Tensei - the most destructive Rinnegan technique - after he gained his second Rinnegan. All the other time he was fighting with mostly melee and his Limbo clone.

PS has never been shown to be used by someone with just one eye. Sasuke, Madara, Kakashi - all of them were dual Mangekyo users. The most a single eye has shown is V3.

Dual Rinnegan SM Madara would be a completely different story, but without that one Rinnegan? Nope. The difference between the two is massive and

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, has also been displayed on panel - Madara was getting his ass handed to him by Naruto and Sasuke and was forced to retreat. As soon as he retrieved his second eye, the tables flipped completely. Hell, he went from 1 Limbo clone to 5, in addition to showcasing one of the most destructive jutsus in the series: it's quite clear his power is multiplied numerously with both eyes, downgraded severely with just one.

I didn't think there was still someone who didn't know PS requires dual Mangekyo/Rinnegan.

Wait. Was it stated that PS requires two Sharingan or just Susanoo in general? Neither Obito or Kakashi could create even a rib cage when only having one eye meanwhile Madara was able to create V3 when both his eye sockets were empty.

So if the statement is just "Susanoo requires having both eyes" then there is no reason to believe that Madara can't create a PS with only having one eye since that statement was rendered null when Madara created V3 and there is nothing that suggests that he can't create a PS. But if there is a statement that says "Perfect Susanoo requires having both eyes" then I'll agree that Madara can't use PS since he hasn't shown using PS while only having 1 eye so that statement is still valid.

- Knocked several bijus and did no actual damage.
- Equally trading hits with RSM Naruto without doing any damage to him
- Smacked back Sasuke and Sakura and did no actual damage to them

Gonna hand me the scan where Limbo clones have been shown to possess CES Tsunade level of blunt force, which is the minimal required to breach ribcage?

Chou Rasengan has seemed to cause a crack on the Ribcage and that is just by it is initial impact and not even the explosion.

Spoiler

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Madara's limbo has caused about the same damage to Kurama than a barrage of those... so I can't see why Limbo wouldn't break through it.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Creak can also be the sound of the rasengan gnashing or rubbing through the defense. Not necessarily breaking. Madara created Susano O by first awakening the MS. The same madara after blind, only showed rinnegan in both eyes. MS should be activated at least once before Susano O can be summoned. Madara was blind so he should awaken it again, which didnt happen. Madara can't use PS. No character simply does not use thier said power just because they're already broken. Just like how madara didn't activate it against eight gai despite seeing eight gai as a potential death threat; proving he cannot use it after his eyes became blind.

 

[Ambivalence]

Wait. Was it stated that PS requires two Sharingan or just Susanoo in general? Neither Obito or Kakashi could create even a rib cage when only having one eye meanwhile Madara was able to create V3 when both his eye sockets were empty.

So if the statement is just "Susanoo requires having both eyes" then there is no reason to believe that Madara can't create a PS with only having one eye since that statement was rendered null when Madara created V3 and there is nothing that suggests that he can't create a PS. But if there is a statement that says "Perfect Susanoo requires having both eyes" then I'll agree that Madara can't use PS since he hasn't shown using PS while only having 1 eye so that statement is still valid.

Once awakened, the technique does not require eyes to be manifested to an extent, as evidenced by blind Madara's Susano'o. Perfect Susano'o is another story - it's the ultimate,

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of the Mangekyo/Rinnegan eyes (bottom right panel). Unless you give me a scan that says, implies or outright shows the opposite, the following is true:

Full power = Dual Eyes = PS/Chibaku Tensei, therefore 1RG Madara cannot manifest PS (nor V4, seeing as how large the difference between his V3 and V4 is).

Don't ignore all I wrote about how much different Madara was when he gained another eye. It's crystal clear he needs that second eye to use his strongest arsenal.

Chou Rasengan has seemed to cause a crack on the Ribcage and that is just by it is initial impact and not even the explosion.

Spoiler

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Madara's limbo has caused about the same damage to Kurama than a barrage of those... so I can't see why Limbo wouldn't break through it.

How exactly is Oodama Rasengan relevant here? Kurama swiped away every COR with its tails, and only SM Rasenshuriken did visible damage to him with a direct hit. Is a Limbo clone hit > SMRS now? Just stop, all that clone did was knock them down briefly.

So again, I'd like to see any sort of damage/destruction feat of a Limbo clone. Since I know no such scan exists, I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's nothing special. Sasuke cannot take a direct hit from the same punch that shattered Madara's ribcage without being seriously injured or dead, nor can Naruto go toe-to-toe with that level of strength without amping himself with that one technique. All Limbo has done is knock stuff back, not to mention Limbo clones carry the same physical ability of Madara himself, who has not shown any sort of impressive breaching capability with his regular strength.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

SM RS did damage in the mindscape right? I dont think it was in the real world.

 

[Hakke]

Once awakened, the technique does not require eyes to be manifested to an extent, as evidenced by blind Madara's Susano'o. Perfect Susano'o is another story - it's the ultimate,

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of the Mangekyo/Rinnegan eyes (bottom right panel). Unless you give me a scan that says, implies or outright shows the opposite, the following is true:

Full power = Dual Eyes = PS/Chibaku Tensei, therefore 1RG Madara cannot manifest PS (nor V4, seeing as how large the difference between his V3 and V4 is).

The scan you posted can be interpreted in many ways. i.e: "true power" could be just referring to the true power of the Rinnegan; CT. Or it may not necessarily mean that he can't use those technieqes when he doesn't have both eyes but it is just that he can use them to thier fullest potentiol when having both eyes. So based on what exactly that your interpretion should be the one to be taken?

Also...

Spoiler

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Focus in the middle bottom panel. "Madara was able to regain his full power" What is Madara's full power, I wonder. hmm? Oh that's right!

Full power = PS

And let us not forget that Hashirama was stating that after he was fighting Edo Madara with a Perfect Susanoo. So it wouldn't make sense for Hashirama to make such a statement if alive madara was weaker than the version of Madara that he had just fought.

Don't ignore all I wrote about how much different Madara was when he gained another eye. It's crystal clear he needs that second eye to use his strongest arsenal.

I did not ignore it. I know that Madara with 2 Rinnegan is much stronger than 1R Madara. But I didn't find that to have any relation to the subject that is if Madara can use PS or not which is why I did not address it.

How exactly is Oodama Rasengan relevant here? Kurama swiped away every COR with its tails, and only SM Rasenshuriken did visible damage to him with a direct hit. Is a Limbo clone hit > SMRS now? Just stop, all that clone did was knock them down briefly.

So again, I'd like to see any sort of damage/destruction feat of a Limbo clone. Since I know no such scan exists, I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's nothing special. Sasuke cannot take a direct hit from the same punch that shattered Madara's ribcage without being seriously injured or dead, nor can Naruto go toe-to-toe with that level of strength without amping himself with that one technique. All Limbo has done is knock stuff back, not to mention Limbo clones carry the same physical ability of Madara himself, who has not shown any sort of impressive breaching capability with his regular strength.

Chou Rasengan was also going to break through Ribcage or at least severely damage it which made Madara use a stronger version of Susanoo

Spoiler

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So we know for sure that a barrage of those would wreck ribcage. But it couldn't damage kurama which was knocked out by a casual punch from limbo. So two fast consecutive strikes is definitely going to break through it if one isn't enough.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Madara wins low difficulty, Nagato lacks mobility and power

 

[Edogawa]

Rinnegan Madara's full power is Limbo as stated by himself:

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Ambivalence merely repeats the horeshit spewed back in 2014. It's 2018 and some people still think 1 eyed Madara can't use PS.

 

[Ambivalence]

The scan you posted can be interpreted in many ways. i.e: "true power" could be just referring to the true power of the Rinnegan; CT. Or it may not necessarily mean that he can't use those technieqes when he doesn't have both eyes but it is just that he can use them to thier fullest potentiol when having both eyes. So based on what exactly that your interpretion should be the one to be taken?

Based on ''full power'' being equal to someone's strongest technique, which is PS or CT for Madara. CT only got shown after Madara attained his second Rinnegan - this is a clear indication Madara needs the second eye to perform it, ''it'' being his full power. It's the same case for Perfect Susano'o: Dual Rinnegan JJ Madara's PS would be much stronger than Sasuke's PS, which was cutting those same CT meteors in half with ease, so that would be at the very least a technique equal to CT in terms of strength, therefore making it at least part of his full power.

Also based on Alive Madara never going past V3 on panel, while he was sporting PS against Kages and Edo Hashirama. Why didn't he just upgrade from V3 to V4 or PS when the 9 Bijuu wrecked his Susano'o with tail sweeps? Hope you don't say anything like him being unable to without eyes, but just one eye changing that.

Lastly, MS Sasuke's V4 dissipated completely as Sasuke lost more of his sight:

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Near blind Sasuke cannot maintain V4, blind/1RG Madara has only demonstrated V3. Hope you get the picture.

Also...

Spoiler

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Focus in the middle bottom panel. "Madara was able to regain his full power" What is Madara's full power, I wonder. hmm? Oh that's right!

And let us not forget that Hashirama was stating that after he was fighting Edo Madara with a Perfect Susanoo. So it wouldn't make sense for Hashirama to make such a statement if alive madara was weaker than the version of Madara that he had just fought.

You know better than I do that scan is complete bullshit:

Spoiler

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His ''full power''? Blind SM Madara confirmed > EMS Madara. Past =/= full, so that scan is void. I'll need a VIZ version if you wanna continue arguing this point.

I did not ignore it. I know that Madara with 2 Rinnegan is much stronger than 1R Madara. But I didn't find that to have any relation to the subject that is if Madara can use PS or not which is why I did not address it.

The point for all that comparison between 1 and Dual Rinnegan Madara was to show that the eyes being together is when Madara can start dishing out his strongest arsenal. Has Madara (or any other Mangekyo/Rinnegan user) ever shown anything you can label as ''their strongest arsenal'' with a single eye? No. Have they showed their most powerful techs when with dual doujutsu? Yes.

Kind of a coincidence that Kakashi was also given the second Mangekyo when he manifested PS, hmm?

Chou Rasengan was also going to break through Ribcage or at least severely damage it which made Madara use a stronger version of Susanoo

Spoiler

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So we know for sure that a barrage of those would wreck ribcage. But it couldn't damage kurama which was knocked out by a casual punch from limbo. So two fast consecutive strikes is definitely going to break through it if one isn't enough.

First of all, I don't deny that a single COR's explosion would've definitely destroyed ribcage, let alone a barrage. However, that was a joint attack by Onoki and Naruto, using momentum of both Naruto falling down and Onoki's Doton pushing Madara up to increase the initial force, kind of like Danzo's Fuuton combo on Sasuke's Susano'o, which eventually breached it. Without that kind of set up, the hit would've done less damage.

Second, Madara had solid ground below him to prevent him from being knocked back. Every single time Limbo has hit anyone it has swatted them away, so how exactly is the second strike landing before Madara sees the cracks and upgrades Susano'o?

Third, Limbo didn't do jack shit to Kurama, that was a chakra avatar, which also had no visible damage on it. And hell, how could it have, when even someone with no durability like Sasuke took a hit? All. Limbo. Has. Done. Is. Knock. Stuff. Back.

Fourth, the COR - Limbo - Kurama comparison is super flawed because Kurama ate like 20 COR's which exploded (where the jutsu does its actual damage), and again was only stunned enough for Naruto to continue the tug of war. Why are you saying ''...but it couldn't damage Kurama'' when Limbo didn't do that either? It didn't knock it out (as if chakra can be knocked out),

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. All Limbo did was give a window of opportunity for easily connecting the Gedo Mazo chains. Right now this is like you equating a kunai to a Bijuudama because they're both useless against the Juubi. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Tyris]

nagato literally has madara’s eyes. Anything nagato can do, madara does better. Madara stomps

/thread