[Discussion] Historical hypocrisy

Multiply

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I love when some people claim that blacks in the US need to 'get over' slavery because it was over 100 years ago and none of them lived through it. On the other hand when some other people say put the confederate statues in museums and not in the middle of parks and streets, those people from the first sentence get all upset and hurt because it's 'their' history.

I'm not comparing tragedies, however you don't see people telling the Jews to get over the holocaust. Meanwhile in Germany you won't find a statue of Hitler or a Nazi flag anywhere(Maybe in some basements). Again I'm not comparing tragedies, I'm just using an example.

There's a big problem in our country and it's really so sad.
 

Avani

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We have tons of memorials from colonial powers here... Few people care.. If it's out in the open birds are going to crap over it anyway.
 
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Chikombo

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I don't think "getting over" something that happened is the right move, you should learn from history not forget about it. But of course if people don't want to be reminded of horrible things then that's understandable as well.
 
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TrueRage

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the prob is that some of the "confederate statues" have nothing to do with slavery the men or women did grate things befor and after and part of the US history.they ask to be call'd AfricanAmericans. i dont see it that way unless they were born in Africa and the became Americans after getting here if there born here all i see are Americans and its time to grow up and start acting like Americans.
 

Caliburn

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I love when some people claim that blacks in the US need to 'get over' slavery because it was over 100 years ago and none of them lived through it. On the other hand when some other people say put the confederate statues in museums and not in the middle of parks and streets, those people from the first sentence get all upset and hurt because it's 'their' history.

I'm not comparing tragedies, however you don't see people telling the Jews to get over the holocaust. Meanwhile in Germany you won't find a statue of Hitler or a Nazi flag anywhere(Maybe in some basements). Again I'm not comparing tragedies, I'm just using an example.

There's a big problem in our country and it's really so sad.
You need to place things like these within the appropriate historical context as even if certain historical events appear the same, you can't just jumble them together like that.

Slavery was during its time considered almost universally normal. Only at the start of the 19th century the slave trade was abolished (at least in the Western world) while slavery itself disappeared during the course of the century. I mean this is already distant history, not that distant for people to not have any connection to it, but still. Also the point of slavery was economic profit, not to kill people. Yes a lot of people died, but that was just a side effect.

The Holocaust on the other hand was even when it happened considered to be atrocious and its purpose was complete annihilation of the Jews. This also only happened half a century ago and many people who lived through it are still alive today. What's more the entire Holocaust-movement is actually quite recent as during the Cold War anything that could affect Germany got ignored. Only after the fall of the SU the Holocaust became a hot topic and it was carried mostly by a new generation of Jews who didn't exist during the war, but wanted to know what happened to their parents and grand-parents.

Same thing with nazi and confederate memorabilia. In the USA you have a distinct southern culture with deep roots and the confederacy is a part of that. In the case of Hitler and the nazi-party however for most Germans their relationship with it was just superficial. As long as Germany was doing fine they went with the flow, but the moment the war was lost everything related to Hitler was immediately removed. Though from time to time a forgotten nazi monument pops up.

Public monuments though are by default difficult to deal with. What most people don't realize is that such monuments often are multi-layered. The circumstances in which a monument was raised decades ago are not the same as the ones in which we view those monuments today and often the associations people make and the meanings they give to them change over time. John Oliver made a segment about this and it was interesting to know that apparently the majority of the confederate monuments were actually raised in the '60 and '70.

Personally I have mixed feelings. Removing public symbols can have nasty side-effects. Take the confederate flag for example. Till recently it had quite a few different values, but by forbidding it, it became an almost exclusive symbol for racists and similar radical groups. It also feels like you're trying to sweep things under the rug. On the other hand it's not a good sign either if you have monuments that have obvious references to notions we don't accept anymore today. Yeah it's a paradox.
 
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Fountain

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There is a big problem indeed, and we could start working on it by not making dumb comparisons between the confederacy and the Nazis and countinually bringing up the black slaves. The sooner we educate ourselves and grow up the sooner we can solve it.
 

Legendary Saiyan

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prob the only time I can cosign with you lol

"Never forget 9/11" "Slavery is old get over it" lel

Seems to be that way but I won't generalize.

There are other occurrences.
 
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Multiply

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You need to place things like these within the appropriate historical context as even if certain historical events appear the same, you can't just jumble them together like that.
I wasn't jumbling them together. I understand the differences very well, however the circumstance is similar. Scale and magnitude aside.

Slavery was during its time considered almost universally normal. Only at the start of the 19th century the slave trade was abolished (at least in the Western world) while slavery itself disappeared during the course of the century. I mean this is already distant history, not that distant for people to not have any connection to it, but still. Also the point of slavery was economic profit, not to kill people. Yes a lot of people died, but that was just a side effect.
Where was it normal in that time period? Most European and Eastern countries abolished it in or before the 1830's

The Holocaust on the other hand was even when it happened considered to be atrocious and its purpose was complete annihilation of the Jews. This also only happened half a century ago and many people who lived through it are still alive today. What's more the entire Holocaust-movement is actually quite recent as during the Cold War anything that could affect Germany got ignored. Only after the fall of the SU the Holocaust became a hot topic and it was carried mostly by a new generation of Jews who didn't exist during the war, but wanted to know what happened to their parents and grand-parents.
Agreed, however blacks in the US didn't really get rights until the 1960's. Blacks have been 'accepted' for at best 40 years now.

Same thing with nazi and confederate memorabilia. In the USA you have a distinct southern culture with deep roots and the confederacy is a part of that. In the case of Hitler and the nazi-party however for most Germans their relationship with it was just superficial. As long as Germany was doing fine they went with the flow, but the moment the war was lost everything related to Hitler was immediately removed. Though from time to time a forgotten nazi monument pops up.

Public monuments though are by default difficult to deal with. What most people don't realize is that such monuments often are multi-layered. The circumstances in which a monument was raised decades ago are not the same as the ones in which we view those monuments today and often the associations people make and the meanings they give to them change over time. John Oliver made a segment about this and it was interesting to know that apparently the majority of the confederate monuments were actually raised in the '60 and '70.
I completely see what you're saying and agree but, how many countries that have had civil war in the past 300 years have statues honoring those on the losing side? Like, I understand there might have been different reasons that some of these Generals and important figures have statues up in public places however, they were literally domestic terrorists turned enemies of the United States.

100% it's our history. That's why they should be in museums where all of that context can be explained on why they were such important figures. They should not be honored in public spaces as if they were the greatest leaders our country has to offer.

Personally I have mixed feelings. Removing public symbols can have nasty side-effects. Take the confederate flag for example. Till recently it had quite a few different values, but by forbidding it, it became an almost exclusive symbol for racists and similar radical groups. It also feels like you're trying to sweep things under the rug. On the other hand it's not a good sign either if you have monuments that have obvious references to notions we don't accept anymore today. Yeah it's a paradox.
I say just put them in museums.

There is a big problem indeed, and we could start working on it by not making dumb comparisons between the confederacy and the Nazis and countinually bringing up the black slaves. The sooner we educate ourselves and grow up the sooner we can solve it.
Read more.
 

demon of the leaf

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I wasn't jumbling them together. I understand the differences very well, however the circumstance is similar. Scale and magnitude aside.


Where was it normal in that time period? Most European and Eastern countries abolished it in or before the 1830's



Agreed, however blacks in the US didn't really get rights until the 1960's. Blacks have been 'accepted' for at best 40 years now.



I completely see what you're saying and agree but, how many countries that have had civil war in the past 300 years have statues honoring those on the losing side? Like, I understand there might have been different reasons that some of these Generals and important figures have statues up in public places however, they were literally domestic terrorists turned enemies of the United States.

100% it's our history. That's why they should be in museums where all of that context can be explained on why they were such important figures. They should not be honored in public spaces as if they were the greatest leaders our country has to offer.



I say just put them in museums.



Read more.
You do have to remember that state loyalty was considered the norm in that time the leadership like jefferson davis were held under house arrest and never allowed in public after the war.

There were executions that happened after the war men and women would be hung as far as i know there was only one woman executed.

But the leadership like lee were spared, only because it was more useful to keep them alive.

It is best to learn from history rather then judge from it it is like blaming the germans of the holocost no one was alive during that time so why should any be blamed for something they had no say in.

I saw you mention the 60s i feel that is a bit of a slippery slope most of us whos parents were ether children or yet to be born hold no responsibilty of what their parents did.

Pardon my lack of puntuation i am on a phone and the site is very crappy with phones.
 

demon of the leaf

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Ugh! This race black/white history issue thingy.

Now I feel happy for being brown.
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History has a lot of barbs you could say its a hatfield-mccoy feud syndrom but in this case they remember why they hated eachother me and a couple people have talked about it in passing when i am at collage
 

Dreckerplayer

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I love when some people claim that blacks in the US need to 'get over' slavery because it was over 100 years ago and none of them lived through it. On the other hand when some other people say put the confederate statues in museums and not in the middle of parks and streets, those people from the first sentence get all upset and hurt because it's 'their' history.

I'm not comparing tragedies, however you don't see people telling the Jews to get over the holocaust. Meanwhile in Germany you won't find a statue of Hitler or a Nazi flag anywhere(Maybe in some basements). Again I'm not comparing tragedies, I'm just using an example.

There's a big problem in our country and it's really so sad.
What are you talking about? You ARE comparing them, lmao. That's exactly what a comparison is...you putting the tragedies in the same sentence to make a point, you'd have to be comparing them. One has NOTHING to do with the other.

hundreds of years of slaughtering/enslaving people and affecting later generations as a result vs a god damn statue and it's placement. What an INSULT multiply, you just devalued black humanity and jews. Thanks a lot!!

Do you not see what the problem is! One has nothing to do with the other, just stop it. You're extremely too opinionated and self-entitled. Sometimes, i just can't take it! You're product of child negligence, too many unchecked thoughts.Stay out of the clouds.
 
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