Hand signs mechanics explained. We had it all wrong.

[Retsu]

I think the hand seals are still required and performed but the artist and animators simply stopped caring seeing as adding them all in would simply be too much effort. Especially when taking the manga into consideration. That'd amount to pages of characters throwing hand signs by the end of the manga.

 

[KidGamer65]

Nice effort, but no as I already told you. :lol

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Extra chakra isn't stored for later use. It goes to waste. That is why chakra control is important to begin with.

And hand signs obviously aren't required to mold chakra, otherwise Rasengan, Bijuu Dama, Hiraishin and every other tech that doesn't require hand signs wouldn't be possible. That and Sasuke has used Chidori and regular Raiton streaming without hand signs.

Naruto Kage Bunshin: Naruto essentially uses 1 hand sign to perform multiple Kage Bunshin simultaneously. This is mainly done because his massive chakra pool allows him to mold an insane amount of chakra at once to perform the jutsu.

This also makes no sense. Why must you blatantly lie about how techniques work to get your point across? 1 hand sign doesn't perform multiple instances of the jutsu. Shadow Clones create copies equal to the amount of chakra used. Multi Shadow Clones do the same on a much larger scale. That's ONE instance of the jutsu. Not several.

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-Sasuke using Chidori without hand signs prior or at the time of activation despite using Katon w/ hand signs a page before.

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-Sasuke doing the same thing as the last scan, which blatantly contradicts what you stated about him using a hand sign to "switch back" to Raiton. There's also at least a dozen more examples I can give you. Hiraishin requires no hand signs whatsoever.

 

[kiiro]

Some hand seals are off panel. You cant storage different types of chakra in yourself. It is just chakra. You convert that chakra into a nature.

And you can mold chakra with no hand seals, hand seal are for controlling the chakra, not to creat it. Reason Minato only stood still to mold chakra to move Kurama away and not make a hand seal.

And those he have great chakra control does not need a lot of hand seals like you say and maybe non in some cases. And those prodigious ninjas can even do them with one hand.

 

[kiiro]

Nice effort, but no as I already told you. :lol

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Extra chakra isn't stored for later use. It goes to waste. That is why chakra control is important to begin with.

And hand signs obviously aren't required to mold chakra, otherwise Rasengan, Bijuu Dama, Hiraishin and every other tech that doesn't require hand signs wouldn't be possible. That and Sasuke has used Chidori and regular Raiton streaming without hand signs.



This also makes no sense. Why must you blatantly lie about how techniques work to get your point across? 1 hand sign doesn't perform multiple instances of the jutsu. Shadow Clones create copies equal to the amount of chakra used. Multi Shadow Clones do the same on a much larger scale. That's ONE instance of the jutsu. Not several.

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-Sasuke using Chidori without hand signs prior or at the time of activation despite using Katon w/ hand signs a page before.

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-Sasuke doing the same thing as the last scan, which blatantly contradicts what you stated about him using a hand sign to "switch back" to Raiton. There's also at least a dozen more examples I can give you. Hiraishin requires no hand signs whatsoever.

Well with the picture, the 10% of chakra is still remaining there. It could be said he lost it since he did not use it for the purpose he created it for.

 

[Mellanoma]

Nice effort, but no as I already told you. :lol

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Extra chakra isn't stored for later use. It goes to waste. That is why chakra control is important to begin with.

And hand signs obviously aren't required to mold chakra, otherwise Rasengan, Bijuu Dama, Hiraishin and every other tech that doesn't require hand signs wouldn't be possible. That and Sasuke has used Chidori and regular Raiton streaming without hand signs.



This also makes no sense. Why must you blatantly lie about how techniques work to get your point across? 1 hand sign doesn't perform multiple instances of the jutsu. Shadow Clones create copies equal to the amount of chakra used. Multi Shadow Clones do the same on a much larger scale. That's ONE instance of the jutsu. Not several.

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-Sasuke using Chidori without hand signs prior or at the time of activation despite using Katon w/ hand signs a page before.

You must be registered for see links

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-Sasuke doing the same thing as the last scan, which blatantly contradicts what you stated about him using a hand sign to "switch back" to Raiton. There's also at least a dozen more examples I can give you. Hiraishin requires no hand signs whatsoever.

Once again. Hand signs and other mechanism can be used to mold chakra. never stated Hand signs are the only way to mold chakra for a specific AFfinity. Its the most common method of doing it but its not the required method.

Never stated sasuke used Hand signs to switch back to Raiton. I stated he used hand signs to mold Katon then used more of his already stored Raiton Chakra from the previous time he molded Raiton chakra. Even your illustration shows that additional chakra can be created. What's stopping it from being stored instead of being wasted over time with improved chakra control? As shinobi's develop their ability to control and mold chakra is this not the development I speak of to not use hand signs?

I've clearly stated that Affinity/Chakra molding over time requries less and less seals or whatever other mechanism is required.


I don't mind debating you on this topic but if you feel i'm wrong then there must be 3 outcomes

1) Kishi messed up on the entire system
2) I'm right and Kishi's system is fine
3) What is your thought on the process?

 

[KidGamer65]

Once again. Hand signs and other mechanism can be used to mold chakra. never stated Hand signs are the only way to mold chakra for a specific AFfinity. Its the most common method of doing it but its not the required method.

Never stated sasuke used Hand signs to switch back to Raiton. I stated he used hand signs to mold Katon then used more of his already stored Raiton Chakra from the previous time he molded Raiton chakra. Even your illustration shows that additional chakra can be created. What's stopping it from being stored instead of being wasted over time with improved chakra control? As shinobi's develop their ability to control and mold chakra is this not the development I speak of to not use hand signs?

I've clearly stated that Affinity/Chakra molding over time requries less and less seals or whatever other mechanism is required.


I don't mind debating you on this topic but if you feel i'm wrong then there must be 3 outcomes

1) Kishi messed up on the entire system
2) I'm right and Kishi's system is fine
3) What is your thought on the process?

Lmao. What? Do hand signs need to be used to mold chakra. Yes or no? Because you are saying two completely different things every time I quote you.

Molding of Chakra REQUIRES hand signs.

Bold is blatantly shown to be false as that was the first time he used Raiton and he used it with no hand seals at all. The underlined is you trying to argue against the Manga which is where we start to have problems. What is stated is that chakra is molded for ONE jutsu. Extra chakra is lost, not stored. It was never stated or implied that it could be stored. Ever. Not once.

Kishi's hand sign system makes no sense. You'll see Kakashi/Sasuke use hand signs for Chidori but then you'll see them use it without hand signs and the jutsu remains the same. The only thing I can think of is that hand signs allow better control of the chakra used.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Lmao. What? Do hand signs need to be used to mold chakra. Yes or no? Because you are saying two completely different things every time I quote you.





Bold is blatantly shown to be false as that was the first time he used Raiton and he used it with no hand seals at all. The underlined is you trying to argue against the Manga which is where we start to have problems. What is stated is that chakra is molded for ONE jutsu. Extra chakra is lost, not stored. It was never stated or implied that it could be stored. Ever. Not once.

Kishi's hand sign system makes no sense. You'll see Kakashi/Sasuke use hand signs for Chidori but then you'll see them use it without hand signs and the jutsu remains the same. The only thing I can think of is that hand signs allow better control of the chakra used.

For activation of the jutsu initially requires hand seals , the for spamming, hand seals aren't required.

 

[Imperious]

Lmao. What? Do hand signs need to be used to mold chakra. Yes or no? Because you are saying two completely different things every time I quote you.





Bold is blatantly shown to be false as that was the first time he used Raiton and he used it with no hand seals at all. The underlined is you trying to argue against the Manga which is where we start to have problems. What is stated is that chakra is molded for ONE jutsu. Extra chakra is lost, not stored. It was never stated or implied that it could be stored. Ever. Not once.

Kishi's hand sign system makes no sense. You'll see Kakashi/Sasuke use hand signs for Chidori but then you'll see them use it without hand signs and the jutsu remains the same. The only thing I can think of is that hand signs allow better control of the chakra used.

All right, it seems that you've refuted Mellanoma's arguements, so let me ask you some questions. Did you think that Mellanoma was partially right, maybe even onto something? Or was he entirely wrong in his observation of hand signs? Even if you believe that what he said was wrong, do you think that what he said at least makes some sense, to the point where you might understand why he misconstrued hand signs? Or did his words make no sense at all, to the point where you couldn't even pardon his misconceptions? And finally, though what Mellanoma said is wrong (given the proof and rationality that you provided), do you think that the explanation of hand signs that Mellanoma provided would have been better than the one the manga provided? Not as flexible and efficient, i'm sure, but more limiting and challenging? ​

​

 

[Mellanoma]

Lmao. What? Do hand signs need to be used to mold chakra. Yes or no? Because you are saying two completely different things every time I quote you.





Bold is blatantly shown to be false as that was the first time he used Raiton and he used it with no hand seals at all. The underlined is you trying to argue against the Manga which is where we start to have problems.

Kishi's hand sign system makes no sense. You'll see Kakashi/Sasuke use hand signs for Chidori but then you'll see them use it without hand signs and the jutsu remains the same. The only thing I can think of is that hand signs allow better control of the chakra used.

Molding of Chakra REQUIRES hand signs. The more chakra you want to mold the more hand signs.
^^Better chakra control requires less hand signs for molding ^^
Adding or swapping Mold types require hand signs unless pre-molded

Is the entire quote. Not just the first bit you quoted.
I also state as shinobi advance in their affinity and natural chakra control it gets to the point where molding of chakra requires few to no seals at all UNLESS said ability or jutsu requires more chakra than they have stored OR a special affinity they need to mold in combat. Case and point Madara needing to mold additional chakra for IT

What is stated is that chakra is molded for ONE jutsu. Extra chakra is lost, not stored. It was never stated or implied that it could be stored. Ever. Not once.

You say that i'm arguing against the manga but the manga contradicts itself. Im just giving a logical explanation on this contradiction. Which, to be honest it makes sense since hand seal usage varies user to user depending on the jutsu. If it takes someone 40 seals to perform a jutsu that it takes someone else 1 seal. Then the issue is not with the jutsu but the user's ability to mold chakra / affinity for that jutsu.

If the Manga law wasn't:

What is stated is that chakra is molded for ONE jutsu

Would it not be logical to say hand seals allow users to mold chakra for additional jutsu of that specific affinity? Especially since this rule was proven false literally 10 or so chapters after it was stated. I honestly believe this Rule worked for part 1 as most shinobi were no where near the level of chakra control like they are now. Rinnegan was a myth back then as well.



Lastly, I have also stated there are different mechanism for molding chakra(KKG,Dojutsu,Clan techs/Special techs) however in this thread i'm simply stating Hand seals are for molding chakra/affinity only not for the jutsu itself.

 

[KidGamer65]

All right, it seems that you've refuted Mellanoma's arguements, so let me ask you some questions. Did you think that Mellanoma was partially right, maybe even onto something? Or was he entirely wrong in his observation of hand signs? Even if you believe that what he said was wrong, do you think that what he said at least makes some sense, to the point where you might understand why he misconstrued hand signs? Or did his words make no sense at all, to the point where you couldn't even pardon his misconceptions? And finally, though what Mellanoma said is wrong (given the proof and rationality that you provided), do you think that the explanation of hand signs that Mellanoma provided would have been better than the one the manga provided? Not as flexible and efficient, i'm sure, but more limiting and challenging? ​

​

Hand seals being made for affinity and not jutsu could be partially correct. The rest is shown to be wrong, but the hand sign system is messed up anyway so coming to this conclusion isn't something that is crazy.

For activation of the jutsu initially requires hand seals , the for spamming, hand seals aren't required.

The Manga flat out disagrees.

Molding of Chakra REQUIRES hand signs. The more chakra you want to mold the more hand signs.
^^Better chakra control requires less hand signs for molding ^^
Adding or swapping Mold types require hand signs unless pre-molded

Is the entire quote. Not just the first bit you quoted.
I also state as shinobi advance in their affinity and natural chakra control it gets to the point where molding of chakra requires few to no seals at all UNLESS said ability or jutsu requires more chakra than they have stored OR a special affinity they need to mold in combat. Case and point Madara needing to mold additional chakra for IT

Meaning hand signs aren't required all the time. If they were, people wouldn't be able to use jutsu without them no matter how skilled they got with chakra control and their affinity.

You say that i'm arguing against the manga but the manga contradicts itself. Im just giving a logical explanation on this contradiction. Which, to be honest it makes sense since hand seal usage varies user to user depending on the jutsu. If it takes someone 40 seals to perform a jutsu that it takes someone else 1 seal. Then the issue is not with the jutsu but the user's ability to mold chakra / affinity for that jutsu.

Except the Manga doesn't contradict itself. The system may be wonky, but not once was it shown, hinted or implied that you could store chakra for later uses of jutsu. You mold chakra for one technique and that's it. If you disagree show me where the Manga said or showed us that you could. Hand seals don't have anything to do with this point.

Would it not be logical to say hand seals allow users to mold chakra for additional jutsu of that specific affinity? Especially since this rule was proven false literally 10 or so chapters after it was stated. I honestly believe this Rule worked for part 1 as most shinobi were no where near the level of chakra control like they are now. Rinnegan was a myth back then as well.

This obviously isn't what my post is addressing. Why are you talking about hand seals? You stated that chakra for jutsu can be stockpiled, yet the Manga proves that false. The Manga states that you mold chakra for one jutsu and then again when you want to use another jutsu.

Lastly, I have also stated there are different mechanism for molding chakra(KKG,Dojutsu,Clan techs/Special techs) however in this thread i'm simply stating Hand seals are for molding chakra/affinity only not for the jutsu itself.

The bold is the only thing I can agree on. The rest? No. Even then I can't 100% agree because Sharingan copies techniques even if they have only one hand seal, but if the hand seal was for affinity and not jutsu, how would the Sharingan user be able to replicate the exact jutsu the user performed before seeing it? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Mellanoma]

As for the manga statement on stockpiled chakra. There is no explanation for this and since users can perform jutsu without performing seals to cast a jutsu there really is no middle ground other than the system is messed up. Like I said I'm just trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. Ay's raiton armor to me is a great example of a user who molds affinity chakra constantly without the use of seals. The question is. Does the jutsu cast once? Does it require concentration? What.ever the answer is it's quite obvious that he has massive chakra reserves stored for Raiton affinity.

The bold is the only thing I can agree on. The rest? No. Even then I can't 100% agree because Sharingan copies techniques even if they have only one hand seal, but if the hand seal was for affinity and not jutsu, how would the Sharingan user be able to replicate the exact jutsu the user performed before seeing it? Doesn't make sense.

Interesting question. The only answer I have for this is while the Sharingan can copy the jutsu. It is dependent on the user to be able to execute it properly. For example: Technically Kakashi can copy Madara's gouka mekkyaku which Madara canonically performed with 1 hand seal. With the system I have and based on manga's illustration of affinity/chakra control proficiency. Kakashi copies the jutsu however it may take him 30 seals or a lot of chakra build up/concentration to execute it.

This is why I believe Kakashi is known as the copier of 1000+ jutsu but never had the stamina to perform them.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

The Manga flat out disagrees

Kakashi used hand seals for raikiri but for spamming he didnt use them again. So manga really doesnt disagree a bit.

 

[KidGamer65]

As for the manga statement on stockpiled chakra. There is no explanation for this and since users can perform jutsu without performing seals to cast a jutsu there really is no middle ground other than the system is messed up. Like I said I'm just trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. Ay's raiton armor to me is a great example of a user who molds affinity chakra constantly without the use of seals. The question is. Does the jutsu cast once? Does it require concentration? What.ever the answer is it's quite obvious that he has massive chakra reserves stored for Raiton affinity.




Interesting question. The only answer I have for this is while the Sharingan can copy the jutsu. It is dependent on the user to be able to execute it properly. For example: Technically Kakashi can copy Madara's gouka mekkyaku which Madara canonically performed with 1 hand seal. With the system I have and based on manga's illustration of affinity/chakra control proficiency. Kakashi copies the jutsu however it may take him 30 seals or a lot of chakra build up/concentration to execute it.

This is why I believe Kakashi is known as the copier of 1000+ jutsu but never had the stamina to perform them.

Huh? No. He molds the chakra needed to form the armor and then uses said chakra to invoke it. Has nothing to do with him having chakra stored for the Raiton affinity. He molds it when he needs to use the armor, not prior. The only explanation for this is that hand signs aren't required at all for certain jutsu once you are proficient enough, molding chakra doesn't require seals 100% of the time, and chakra can't be stockpiled. The last bit is definitely true as there is nothing in the Manga that outright contradicts it.

Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question though. The issue isn't the user's capability to use said jutsu. The issue is how they are replicating the exact jutsu despite the hand sign not being for one jutsu, but for an affinity.

Kakashi used hand seals for raikiri but for spamming he didnt use them again. So manga really doesnt disagree a bit.

Maybe you should try reading the Manga sometime. There are multiple instances where both Kakashi and Sasuke have used Raiton initially without using hand signs.

 

[Mellanoma]

Huh? No. He molds the chakra needed to form the armor and then uses said chakra to invoke it. Has nothing to do with him having chakra stored for the Raiton affinity. He molds it when he needs to use the armor, not prior. The only explanation for this is that hand signs aren't required at all for certain jutsu once you are proficient enough, molding chakra doesn't require seals 100% of the time, and chakra can't be stockpiled. The last bit is definitely true as there is nothing in the Manga that outright contradicts it.

Yeah, but that doesn't answer the question though. The issue isn't the user's capability to use said jutsu. The issue is how they are replicating the exact jutsu despite the hand sign not being for one jutsu, but for an affinity.



Maybe you should try reading the Manga sometime. There are multiple instances where both Kakashi and Sasuke have used Raiton initially without using hand signs.

Since the Sharingan is capable of seeing chakra flow as well as the ability to copy enemy movements. The only answer I have for this is the Sharingan's copy mechanics mimic the exact mold of chakra and the user's seals for that particular molding. In the event that the jutsu doesn't require seals then the Sharingan simply copies the molding/jutsu mechanics.

For example: Kakashi using Rasengan.

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While it was never official that Kakashi copied the Rasengan, it would make sense that he copied Naruto or Jiraiya by simply watching their chakra flow and the jutsu's chakra flow/mechanics. Might not make sense at first but it would actually explain why Sharingan users can see through visual genjutsu as all they see is chakra rather than the illusion. If I remember... Kakashi actually saw the Rasenshuriken mechanics but his eye couldn't keep up with the flow of wind chakra needles. To me this would indicate that by simply watching how the chakra flows (Rather in a user or jutsu itself) a sharingan user can copy that ability. The more advanced the jutsu the harder it is to copy or replicate.

This is why I'm glad we started this discussion because the more I look into it the more sense it doesn't make. Especially for Part 2

Part 1: Canonically Haku used Ice(Water/Wind) release with 1 hand.
Part 2: Canonically KKGs required both hands having different elements stated by Yamato.
Part 2: Onoki and Mu used KKT with a hand clap.


So to me this indicates that my system is infact the reasoning Kishi used IF you are willing to accept that Chakra can be stored.

 

[Tyrance sasuke]

Maybe you should try reading the Manga sometime. There are multiple instances where both Kakashi and Sasuke have used Raiton initially without using hand signs

Ok. They do. But there has been many instances where the first time they use raikiri they do hand seals. Not Sasuke though. Im talking about kakashi. Against zabuza, pain etc. He didnt use it for spamming though.