[Spoilers] One Piece Manga General Spoilers & Summaries | 1094

[arv993]

Both of them are childish and impulsive(Blackbeard being willing to fight Luffy because he didn't like the pie though he did; also him attacking Marineford while powertripping), both are incredibly greedy and selfish, both are backstabbers, both are powerhungry, both of them readily do underhanded tactics to get their way, both have moments of high cruelty.

Big Mom being a Yonko means she has to have above-average strategic abilities to control her territories as long as he did and acquire the title in the first place. Her plan to betray the Vinsmokes also showed cunning and planning.

BB is way different than BM. BM is a pure prodigy and had overwhelming strength in order to become a yonko similar to kaido. BB is a conniving pirate who kept trying augment himself through DF's to become the yonko he is today. He set up quite a few plans to gain power and notoriety in the world. They are clearly not the same.

All yonko are somewhat strategic but BM is no BB. He went from schibukai to yonko real fast and it was all pre-meditated and planned well. You seem to make false equivalences quite a bit with just one or two instances as a source. BB is way more conniving just cuz BM isnt a complete dumbass doesnt mean they are very similar.

 

[Punk Hazard]

BB is way different than BM. BM is a pure prodigy and had overwhelming strength in order to become a yonko similar to kaido. BB is a conniving pirate who kept trying augment himself through DF's to become the yonko he is today. He set up quite a few plans to gain power and notoriety in the world. They are clearly not the same.

All yonko are somewhat strategic but BM is no BB. He went from schibukai to yonko real fast and it was all pre-meditated and planned well.

Of course Big Mom and Blackbeard have many differences, they're different people. You can list all the differences you want, but that doesn't make the things I pointed out about them being similar any less true. None of the differences you have listed, however, justify when people go "I can't take Big Mom seriously as a Yonko" when they can do so for Blackbeard, and he exhibits many of the traits she does. Especially when the things people complain about for BM can be applied to BB as well, like her childish, impulsiveness or times when her plans have failed/she's been incompetent, things that have happened to Blackbeard more than once as well.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Both of them are childish and impulsive(Blackbeard being willing to fight Luffy because he didn't like the pie though he did; also him attacking Marineford while powertripping), both are incredibly greedy and selfish, both are backstabbers, both are powerhungry, both of them readily do underhanded tactics to get their way, both have moments of high cruelty.

Big Mom being a Yonko means she has to have above-average strategic abilities to control her territories as long as he did and acquire the title in the first place. Her plan to betray the Vinsmokes also showed cunning and planning.

I'll give you childish, though I think BB is less so and that's why people don't make the comparison as BB has very few childish moments like the pie instance whereas BM felt like almost equal amounts of childish mentality and malice if not more so on the childish side. Who did BM back stab again or is that in reference to the Vinsmokes? If it is I'd disagree that she "backstabbed" them. I also wouldn't call BB impulsive, he's rather calculating actually. He doesn't really move in unless he feels he has a good chance of coming out ahead.

@bold not necessarily especially as long as she has strong reliable crew mates. Based on that layout we could say being PK requires above average strategic abilities but we know Luffy will get there and he's got little to none in the way of strategy. Plus we saw BM from a very early age has been influenced by Streusen and he's a conniving character as he sat and took advantage of the scenario. BM may have strong strategic sense or she may rely on her crew but we haven't seen any significant strategy come from her herself.

Yes she's deceitful but that's not necessarily strategic, BB forming bonds with the WG in order to gain access to high risk criminals in order to bolster his crew is strategic, taking advantage of a scenario where your target is at his worst is strategic, laying in wait under another captain for your chance to get a treasure you're after is strategic, I haven't seen anything from BM that's strategic like that.

The key difference though that BB doesn't share is the mood swings and I think a lot of people have issue with someone like a Yonkou reverting to essentially a toddler mentality for set periods of time.

 

[Punk Hazard]

I'll give you childish, though I think BB is less so and that's why people don't make the comparison as BB has very few childish moments like the pie instance whereas BM felt like almost equal amounts of childish mentality and malice if not more so on the childish side.

He also showed childish fear when Whitebeard attacked him and when he takes attacks and rolls about as though throwing a tantrum. Also, Big Mom's only childish moment was her crying over cake.

Your point "Yeah they're childish but BM is more childish" is pedantic enough to be irrelevant.

Who did BM back stab again or is that in reference to the Vinsmokes? If it is I'd disagree that she "backstabbed" them.

Lmao what? She struck a deal with them to a form an alliance through a marriage and work together, with Big Mom helping the Vinsmokes take over North Blue in exchange for their technology. That was a lie, as she was planning to kill them and take all of their technology and resources for herself. In what universe is that not backstabbing?

I also wouldn't call BB impulsive, he's rather calculating actually. He doesn't really move in unless he feels he has a good chance of coming out ahead.

Impulse shown by attacking MF solely because he was powertripping after taking the Gura Gura no Mi, and when he was about to fight Luffy solely because Luffy disliked pie that he liked.

@bold not necessarily especially as long as she has strong reliable crew mates. Based on that layout we could say being PK requires above average strategic abilities

No it doesn't. Nothing about being PK suggests that you have to have any kind of strategic ability whatsoever.

Plus we saw BM from a very early age has been influenced by Streusen and he's a conniving character as he sat and took advantage of the scenario. BM may have strong strategic sense or she may rely on her crew but we haven't seen any significant strategy come from her herself.

Her plot to assassinate the Vinsmokes and steal their resources.

Yes she's deceitful but that's not necessarily strategic,

These go hand in hand. You cannot be properly deceitful without having a strategic mind.

BB forming bonds with the WG in order to gain access to high risk criminals in order to bolster his crew is strategic, taking advantage of a scenario where your target is at his worst is strategic

Funny how Big Mom doing exactly these things to the Vinsmoke isn't strategic though. Hmm.

The key difference though that BB doesn't share is the mood swings and I think a lot of people have issue with someone like a Yonkou reverting to essentially a toddler mentality for set periods of time.

You're right, Blackbeard rolling around like a child, getting into fights over pie, and whining and crying when he's about to be defeated are way more mature and not at all toddler-like.

 

[chopstickchakra]

He also showed childish fear when Whitebeard attacked him and when he takes attacks and rolls about as though throwing a tantrum. Also, Big Mom's only childish moment was her crying over cake.

Your point "Yeah they're childish but BM is more childish" is pedantic enough to be irrelevant.

Yeah I wouldn't call fear of WB, who was after his head fyi, is childish and I don't think you'll find many readers who would. If there's a character to be afraid of when he has his hands around your head it's WB.

So his reaction to pain is childish to you? Also the only two times I remember him rolling are with fire and poison which are burning pains so rolling makes sense as a reaction.

Neither of these are really childish.

Lmao what? She struck a deal with them to a form an alliance through a marriage and work together, with Big Mom helping the Vinsmokes take over North Blue in exchange for their technology. That was a lie, as she was planning to kill them and take all of their technology and resources for herself. In what universe is that not backstabbing?

Yea see the thing is that she never intended to uphold that agreement, that's called deceit. Backstabbing is betraying a friend, there needs to be some real relationship between the parties to back stab. Teach back stabbed the WB pirates because he played the role of friend and built a relationship which he then desecrated, BM didn't have that connection with the Vinsmokes all she did was lie and trick someone. If someone says hey man I'll sell you this tv then robs you, you don't say they back stabbed me.

Impulse shown by attacking MF solely because he was powertripping after taking the Gura Gura no Mi, and when he was about to fight Luffy solely because Luffy disliked pie that he liked.

So because you have some cases of him being impulsive he's always impulsive? He's shown to be calculating more than impulsive and the Gura example could just as easily be chalked up to arrogance, plus we can't say he didn't plan to use it after stealing it the whole time anyway that's you projecting as fact again.

No it doesn't. Nothing about being PK suggests that you have to have any kind of strategic ability whatsoever.

But Yonkou does because...? Roger fought with WB and the marines strategy was just as essential to his survival as it would be any other pirate.

Her plot to assassinate the Vinsmokes and steal their resources.

Proof that this was her plan, this doesn't refute in any way that her crew may have good strategists.

These go hand in hand. You cannot be properly deceitful without having a strategic mind.

Deceit is just one type of strategy, just because you are successful at deceit doesn't make you a good tactician or all around at strategy.

Funny how Big Mom doing exactly these things to the Vinsmoke isn't strategic though. Hmm.

She lured people in with a promise and set them up, forgive me for not thinking as highly of that as aligning yourself with the World power in order to rip them off. Plus the roles are reversed in BM's situation she's the big dog in BB's he was the small timer. Yes they were similar actions but on a far different scale, BB's was the bigger move by far.

You're right, Blackbeard rolling around like a child, getting into fights over pie, and whining and crying when he's about to be defeated are way more mature and not at all toddler-like.

Like I said those are moments of child like actions whereas BM has moments, good chunks at times, where she has a child like mentality which is different.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Yeah I wouldn't call fear of WB, who was after his head fyi, is childish and I don't think you'll find many readers who would. If there's a character to be afraid of when he has his hands around your head it's WB.

So his reaction to pain is childish to you? Also the only two times I remember him rolling are with fire and poison will be back to finish later sorry.

Being in pain and feeling fear because it's Whitebeard=no.

Rolling around yelping and crying out in a panicky, shrill voice=yes.

I assume you meant to reply to the rest of my post as well.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Mfw Blackbeard is the same way but okay

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[Punk Hazard]

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Several posts later, each of which I point out the similarities, and this is what you post. Maybe try reading.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Being in pain and feeling fear because it's Whitebeard=no.

Rolling around yelping and crying out in a panicky, shrill voice=yes.

I assume you meant to reply to the rest of my post as well.

responded

 

[Punk Hazard]

Yes she's deceitful but that's not necessarily strategic

As I said before, deceit and strategic thinking go hand in hand. You cannot deceive an intelligent group of people without having strategic capabilities.

BB forming bonds with the WG in order to gain access to high risk criminals in order to bolster his crew is strategic, taking advantage of a scenario where your target is at his worst is strategic, laying in wait under another captain for your chance to get a treasure you're after is strategic, I haven't seen anything from BM that's strategic like that.

Big Mom forming a bond with the Vinsmokes in order to gain access to their trust and resources in order to lure them into a trap, taking advantage of the where the Vinsmokes were at their worst with no weapons, clones, or Raid suits, sounds familiar?

The key difference though that BB doesn't share is the mood swings and I think a lot of people have issue with someone like a Yonkou reverting to essentially a toddler mentality for set periods of time.

LIKE TEACH DOES?

 

[arv993]

Of course Big Mom and Blackbeard have many differences, they're different people. You can list all the differences you want, but that doesn't make the things I pointed out about them being similar any less true. None of the differences you have listed, however, justify when people go "I can't take Big Mom seriously as a Yonko" when they can do so for Blackbeard, and he exhibits many of the traits she does. Especially when the things people complain about for BM can be applied to BB as well, like her childish, impulsiveness or times when her plans have failed/she's been incompetent, things that have happened to Blackbeard more than once as well.

She is not similar to BB as a pirate their paths to piracy are way different so you complaining about peoples opinons and justifying it by saying BB and BM are very similar as pirates is not true. The reason why she became a yonko because she was abnormally strong and had a lot of kids who are part of her crew and yes she is power-hungry but in a different way through alliances etc.

 

[Punk Hazard]

She is not similar to BB as a pirate their paths to piracy are way different so you complaining about peoples opinons and justifying it by saying BB and BM are very similar as pirates is not true. The reason why she became a yonko because she was abnormally strong and had a lot of kids who are part of her crew and yes she is power-hungry but in a different way through alliances etc.

And who said anything about their paths to piracy? I'm commenting on people like Macho who say they can't take BM seriously as an Emperor because her of personality, but can do the same for Teach despite having many of the same personality traits as her, including the ones they can't take seriously.

If you're going to continue strawmanning and moving the goalposts, don't bother replying to me again.

 

[chopstickchakra]

As I said before, deceit and strategic thinking go hand in hand. You cannot deceive an intelligent group of people without having strategic capabilities.


Big Mom forming a bond with the Vinsmokes in order to gain access to their trust and resources in order to lure them into a trap, taking advantage of the where the Vinsmokes were at their worst with no weapons, clones, or Raid suits, sounds familiar?


LIKE TEACH DOES?

As I mentioned deceit is just one type of strategy, just because you are successful at deceit doesn't make you a good tactician or all around at strategy. BB has shown more than just deceit, BM hasn't and you still can't prove that any of that was her personal planning as was one of the original points when you brought up Yonkou needing above average strategic abilities. And why exactly do you think a Yonkou would need good strategic abilities but the PK wouldn't?

As I mentioned BM used her power to trick and rob someone, BB used his clout to gain access to areas of a group that was beyond himself. That's not nearly as strategic. What's more strategic a big corporation taking over a small one through lying or a small corporation infiltrating the larger and taking big value information to boost their own standing and put them in a place to rival the company they stole from?

No Teach doesn't have the mentality of a child, that's what you ignoring or missing. He has moments that seem childish in nature(most characters do even serious ones) but his overall mentality does not come across as child like where BM's does. She's obsessed with foods, she's worried about her mother's approval she throws temper tantrums those are characteristics of a child whereas BB just has moments where he behaves like a child. If you can't or refuse to see that then that's what it is but I'm not getting sucked into another Riker saga so have fun with it but BB and BM are not that similar as characters.

 

[arv993]

And who said anything about their paths to piracy? I'm commenting on people like Macho who say they can't take BM seriously as an Emperor because her of personality, but can do the same for Teach despite having many of the same personality traits as her, including the ones they can't take seriously.

If you're going to continue strawmanning and moving the goalposts, don't bother replying to me again.

that was my way of explaining others opinion on this. Do you not read? BM being a yonko is believable but people have an issue with her being dumb and her personality etc BB is more believable because of his cunning and being a schemer that he is. BB is very different you act like they are similar when they arent. You use one instance to wrongfully paint a characters personality.

As I mentioned deceit is just one type of strategy, just because you are successful at deceit doesn't make you a good tactician or all around at strategy. BB has shown more than just deceit, BM hasn't and you still can't prove that any of that was her personal planning as was one of the original points when you brought up Yonkou needing above average strategic abilities. And why exactly do you think a Yonkou would need good strategic abilities but the PK wouldn't?

As I mentioned BM used her power to trick and rob someone, BB used his clout to gain access to areas of a group that was beyond himself. That's not nearly as strategic. What's more strategic a big corporation taking over a small one through lying or a small corporation infiltrating the larger and taking big value information to boost their own standing and put them in a place to rival the company they stole from?

No Teach doesn't have the mentality of a child, that's what you ignoring or missing. He has moments that seem childish in nature(most characters do even serious ones) but his overall mentality does not come across as child like where BM's does. She's obsessed with foods, she's worried about her mother's approval she throws temper tantrums those are characteristics of a child whereas BB just has moments where he behaves like a child. If you can't or refuse to see that then that's what it is but I'm not getting sucked into another Riker saga so have fun with it but BB and BM are not that similar as characters.

exactly. LOL hes next going going to say sengoku and BM are similar because he had a scene where he was childish. using one or two bs comical scenes to force a point like BM and BB are similar is beyond stupid.

 

[Punk Hazard]

As I mentioned deceit is just one type of strategy, just because you are successful at deceit doesn't make you a good tactician or all around at strategy. BB has shown more than just deceit

No he hasn't. Everything you listed as part of his "strategy" falls under deception, just like with BM.

BM hasn't and you still can't prove that any of that was her personal planning

BM is the captain of the crew. Any crew plans are de facto her doing unless you can prove otherwise.

And why exactly do you think a Yonkou would need good strategic abilities but the PK wouldn't?

Because you can overthrow an Emperor, but you can't overthrow the Pirate King. As an Emperor, you need to be able to capture territories and keep them and command what's basically a military force, which you can't do without being a strategic thinker.

To become Pirate King, you just need to complete a particular task, and you're done. All you need is a powerful, competent crew, and to be a competent captain. Luffy atm is a competent captain with a powerful and competent crew, but isn't strategic, nor would he be suited for organizing territories and keeping them.

As I mentioned BM used her power to trick and rob someone, BB used his clout to gain access to areas of a group that was beyond himself. That's not nearly as strategic.

Big Mom used her clout to gain access to the Germa technology. So yeah, it's exactly as strategic as Teach using clout to gain access to Impel Down.

What's more strategic a big corporation taking over a small one through lying or a small corporation infiltrating the larger and taking big value information to boost their own standing and put them in a place to rival the company they stole from?

These are the same.

No Teach doesn't have the mentality of a child, that's what you ignoring or missing.

Impulsively fighting someone because they don't lie pie is such an adult thing to do. Rolling around crying because something hurts is definitely the maturest of behavior. Yelping out in panicking fear is the sign of a sound, adult mind.

He has moments that seem childish in nature(most characters do even serious ones) but his overall mentality does not come across as child like where BM's does.

So in other words, both are childish, Teach is just less childish. Like I said, pendantic enough to be irrelevant.

BB just has moments where he behaves like a child.

Yes, this is called "being childish."

If you can't or refuse to see that then that's what it is but I'm not getting sucked into another Riker saga so have fun with it but BB and BM are not that similar as characters.

No, you just have a super shitty argument and you're writing yourself in corners clinging to a failed rhetoric.

 

[chopstickchakra]

No he hasn't. Everything you listed as part of his "strategy" falls under deception, just like with BM.


BM is the captain of the crew. Any crew plans are de facto her doing unless you can prove otherwise.


Because you can overthrow an Emperor, but you can't overthrow the Pirate King. As an Emperor, you need to be able to capture territories and keep them and command what's basically a military force, which you can't do without being a strategic thinker.

To become Pirate King, you just need to complete a particular task, and you're done. All you need is a powerful, competent crew, and to be a competent captain. Luffy atm is a competent captain with a powerful and competent crew, but isn't strategic, nor would he be suited for organizing territories and keeping them.



Big Mom used her clout to gain access to the Germa technology. So yeah, it's exactly as strategic as Teach using clout to gain access to Impel Down.


These are the same.


Impulsively fighting someone because they don't lie pie is such an adult thing to do. Rolling around crying because something hurts is definitely the maturest of behavior. Yelping out in panicking fear is the sign of a sound, adult mind.



So in other words, both are childish, Teach is just less childish. Like I said, pendantic enough to be irrelevant.


Yes, this is called "being childish."



No, you just have a super shitty argument and you're writing yourself in corners clinging to a failed rhetoric.

I know I'm gonna regret keepin up with this but I'm bored so here we go.

Yes, he has. Going to MF knowing your target is involved in bigger things and that will grant you an opening isn't deceit. Ratting out the location of Baltigo then dipping before the Marines got there isn't deceit. There's not a deep pool of instances to pull from for BB so the examples won't be too many but there are cases of his strategy that don't focus on deceit. BM's only real strategic showing at this point was a deceitful one as I've pointed out, she's shown no depth to her strategy and you've still been unable to prove it was her plan and not a crew mate like Streusen who we've seen guide BM in her decisions before. If you can't prove it was BM's plan when we have proof she has people influence her decision making process then it in no way acts as evidence of her strategic capabilities.

So it was Luffy's plan for Sanji to go rogue back at Alabasta? The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, you claimed it was BM's plan personally. If you can't prove it, you can't prove it no shame in that. I like the classic "you asked for proof, well you show your proof first" defense though.

The PK's life was constantly in danger from the Marines and other pirates including the Yonkou. You need strategy to help you survive not to mention if you need strategy to become a yonkou in what way does it make sense that you could surpass them with no strategic capabilities?

The difference being BB used his strategy to take advantage of someone far above him at the time while BM's strategy exploited people far below her at the time. You can keep crying strategy all you want but her examples are inferior to BB's.

Those are actions not mentality until you show you can grasp the difference we're done discussing the point because you're just gonna keep reiterating the same deflection you've been doing while getting progressively hostile. Rolling around due to burning pain isn't childish. Showing fear of the WSM isn't childish. The manner in which he expresses those may be a bit childish but neither are a reflection of his mentality.

They're not at all. One involves much more strategy to pull of the other requires very little strategy and relies on your clout to bring your target to you.

 

[Punk Hazard]

I know I'm gonna regret keepin up with this but I'm bored so here we go.

You're literally whining that someone won't instantly agree with what you're saying just because you said it. You realize that if we have a long, dragged out argument, it's because BOTH of us are doing the same thing, right? Not that I'm missing your holier than thou gospel.

Yes, he has. Going to MF knowing your target is involved in bigger things and that will grant you an opening isn't deceit.

This isn't even strategic. Any idiot would know this. Blackbeard's plan was to make the World Government htink he was their ally in order to gain access to Impel Down and exclusive sea routes. That's deception. His plan was to make the Whitebeard Pirates think he was their ally in order to get the Yami Yami no Mi. That's deception.

Ratting out the location of Baltigo then dipping before the Marines got there isn't deceit.

How is this strategy either? The Blackbeard Pirates ACCIDENTALLY find Baltigo, tear up the island when no one is there, and then ran away when the Marines showed up. None of that is intelligent strategy.

BM's only real strategic showing at this point was a deceitful one as I've pointed out, she's shown no depth to her strategy

The only things that have been pointed out in this thread as actual strategies from Blackbeard are deceiving the Whitebeard Pirates and deceiving the World Government. And as I've pointed out before, both of these strategies and the strategy Big Mom employed against the Vinsmokes are the same plan: Pretend to be an entity's ally in order to backstab them and gain more power when they are vulnerable.

and you've still been unable to prove it was her plan and not a crew mate like Streusen who we've seen guide BM in her decisions before.

We've seen Big Mom get guided by Streussen only when she was a little girl, and never when she was an adult. We've seen Big Mom explain Pudding's role in the assassination to Pudding, indicating she came up with it. As said before, as captain of the crew, any of their plans are de facto hers. YOU need proof that the plan wasn't, her status as the supreme leader of the crew is indication enough that it was her plan.

If you can't prove it was BM's plan when we have proof she has people influence her decision making process then it in no way acts as evidence of her strategic capabilities.

If you really want to play this game, then we can: Show me proof that Doc Q, Van Ogre, or Lafitte didn't come up with Blackbeard's plans at Impel Down, at Marineford, and with the World Government.

So it was Luffy's plan for Sanji to go rogue back at Alabasta?

The difference between this and the Vinsmoke Assassination is that we have proof that Sanji came up with that plan. You have zero proof that someone other than Big Mom created that plan.

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, you claimed it was BM's plan personally. If you can't prove it, you can't prove it no shame in that. I like the classic "you asked for proof, well you show your proof first" defense though.

I gave my proof. Big Mom's status as the captain and her status as queen of Whole Cake mean that all major plans they take come from her, because that's how leadership works. This only becomes untrue if you can present proof that someone else came up with the plan, as we can with Sanji going rogue in Alabasta. Until that proof is found, her status as the leader is proof enough.

The PK's life was constantly in danger from the Marines and other pirates including the Yonkou. You need strategy to help you survive

Not really. You can just fight them off with a powerful crew and by being a powerful captain. Not to mention, as I said before, that there's no politics game once you become the Pirate King. There's no way someone can usurp that title from you. Once you're Pirate King, you're Pirate King till you die.

not to mention if you need strategy to become a yonkou in what way does it make sense that you could surpass them with no strategic capabilities?

I will admit, however, that an Emperor can have advisors that can act as their proxy for strategies. And before you try to pass this off as onto Big Mom, remember that there's zero evidence that she has such a thing, and has been shown explaining other people's duties to them, as the leader and former of a plan does.

The difference being BB used his strategy to take advantage of someone far above him at the time while BM's strategy exploited people far below her at the time. You can keep crying strategy all you want but her examples are inferior to BB's.

The strategies are still the same though. The difference of taking advantage of someone in a better position than you doesn't mean they didn't do the same thing: They tricked someone into forming an alliance with them, lured them into a vulnerable spot, and then backstabbed them. It's the same level of strategy because it's the exact same plan.

Those are actions not mentality

Are you seriously trying to say that mentality has no effect on behavior? Are you trying to say that childish actions are not the result of a childish mentality? In which case, yes, we are done, because you're clearly delusional or desperate to say anything to avoid acknowledging that BM and Blackbeard share many integral traits.

Rolling around due to burning pain isn't childish.

It is when you're howling like a child. If you want to see non-childish reactions to damage, look at Zoro reacting to Kaku's attacks when they hit, Whitebeard reacting to attacks at Marineford, Marco reacting to being shot in the chest, Shanks reacting to his arm being torn off, Doflamingo reacting to Gear Four hits, Sanji reacting to Jabra's hits. Even the fact that Teach feels more pain than normal people doesn't change that his reaction is childish.

Showing fear of the WSM isn't childish

It's not, begging for your life and crying because of that fear is.

The manner in which he expresses those may be a bit childish but neither are a reflection of his mentality.

Oh wow, you actually were trying to say that a person's behavior has nothing to do with their mentality. That's actually amazing.

They're not at all. One involves much more strategy to pull of

Not really. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to observe the people they were tricking to find something they would want to exploit. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to wait until the right time when they were vulnerable to backstab them. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to offer something to get into their good graces. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to maintain the illusion of an amicable alliance in order to keep suspicion down. Same level of strategy.

relies on your clout to bring your target to you.

You know what's actually amazing? This is the EXACT PHRASE you used to describe what Blackbeard did, and now you're using it to describe Big Mom's as inferior. Crazy how that works out.

 

[chopstickchakra]

You're literally whining that someone won't instantly agree with what you're saying just because you said it. You realize that if we have a long, dragged out argument, it's because BOTH of us are doing the same thing, right? Not that I'm missing your holier than thou gospel.


This isn't even strategic. Any idiot would know this. Blackbeard's plan was to make the World Government htink he was their ally in order to gain access to Impel Down and exclusive sea routes. That's deception. His plan was to make the Whitebeard Pirates think he was their ally in order to get the Yami Yami no Mi. That's deception.

If it's so obvious then why is the only other pirate to try it a yonkou, who you said has to have above average strategy btw? And how many of them would be prepared to steal his DF even if they did? BB went to MF with a specific plan, to use the chaos to steal the strongest paramecia, that's a strategy that got him in between two of the biggest powers and out with minimal effort and his objective and you say it's not strategic.

How is this strategy either? The Blackbeard Pirates ACCIDENTALLY find Baltigo, tear up the island when no one is there, and then ran away when the Marines showed up. None of that is intelligent strategy.

Accidentally? So Burgess accidentally told BB he found Sabo and would follow him to his base then accidentally reported that location to BB so he could come? He found a hidden base no one could find, destroyed a headquaterers of a rival faction and ingratiated himself a bit to an organization he is at odds with. Yeah none of that's good strategy to ensure your continued success and survival.


The only things that have been pointed out in this thread as actual strategies from Blackbeard are deceiving the Whitebeard Pirates and deceiving the World Government. And as I've pointed out before, both of these strategies and the strategy Big Mom employed against the Vinsmokes are the same plan: Pretend to be an entity's ally in order to backstab them and gain more power when they are vulnerable.


We've seen Big Mom get guided by Streussen only when she was a little girl, and never when she was an adult. We've seen Big Mom explain Pudding's role in the assassination to Pudding, indicating she came up with it. As said before, as captain of the crew, any of their plans are de facto hers. YOU need proof that the plan wasn't, her status as the supreme leader of the crew is indication enough that it was her plan.



If you really want to play this game, then we can: Show me proof that Doc Q, Van Ogre, or Lafitte didn't come up with Blackbeard's plans at Impel Down, at Marineford, and with the World Government.


The difference between this and the Vinsmoke Assassination is that we have proof that Sanji came up with that plan. You have zero proof that someone other than Big Mom created that plan.

I gave my proof. Big Mom's status as the captain and her status as queen of Whole Cake mean that all major plans they take come from her, because that's how leadership works. This only becomes untrue if you can present proof that someone else came up with the plan, as we can with Sanji going rogue in Alabasta. Until that proof is found, her status as the leader is proof enough.

You're using outside world constructs to enforce rules in OP and I remember someone saying you're not allowed to use real world rules here when discussing the title of Captain appearing before a characters last name. We've seen the Streusen guides BM since she was a child. The burden of proof is on you but as typical you try to shift that burden to others when you know none exists for your point.

Not really. You can just fight them off with a powerful crew and by being a powerful captain. Not to mention, as I said before, that there's no politics game once you become the Pirate King. There's no way someone can usurp that title from you. Once you're Pirate King, you're Pirate King till you die.

And that wouldn't work for Yonkou because? They need to keep territory? But other Yonkou aren't actually making many moves for territory so the pirates approaching would be small fry who could be handled through force. They need to control the territories? That's what commanders and underlings are for to ensure the network is up and running smoothly. Also PK would need strategy to get to Raftel. Your Yonkou's need above average strategy but PK doesn't argument fails.

I will admit, however, that an Emperor can have advisors that can act as their proxy for strategies. And before you try to pass this off as onto Big Mom, remember that there's zero evidence that she has such a thing, and has been shown explaining other people's duties to them, as the leader and former of a plan does.

No there is some evidence though, Streusen. Streusen is the co founder who has used BM to help take over territories through her strength. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he's been doing most of the decision making including stealing the Vinsmokes tech, you have no evidence besides outside concepts to indicate BM came up with the plan personally when we've seen others create plans for her, influence her and her unstable mentality. Until you can account for Streusen's influence you can't say as any kind of fact that BM makes all the plans because we have evidence to suggest other wise.

It is when you're howling like a child. If you want to see non-childish reactions to damage, look at Zoro reacting to Kaku's attacks when they hit, Whitebeard reacting to attacks at Marineford, Marco reacting to being shot in the chest, Shanks reacting to his arm being torn off, Doflamingo reacting to Gear Four hits, Sanji reacting to Jabra's hits. Even the fact that Teach feels more pain than normal people doesn't change that his reaction is childish.


It's not, begging for your life and crying because of that fear is.

You're equating showing fear or pain to being childish when that's not accurate. Your examples indicate someone has to be stoic in their handling of emotions to not be childish.

Are you seriously trying to say that mentality has no effect on behavior? Are you trying to say that childish actions are not the result of a childish mentality? In which case, yes, we are done, because you're clearly delusional or desperate to say anything to avoid acknowledging that BM and Blackbeard share many integral traits.

Oh wow, you actually were trying to say that a person's behavior has nothing to do with their mentality. That's actually amazing.

I'm saying isolated incidents don't reflect over all mentality. Just because someone acts childish at times or in certain situations does not mean they are childish mentally whereas BM does give that impression to a good amount of people.

Not really. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to observe the people they were tricking to find something they would want to exploit. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to wait until the right time when they were vulnerable to backstab them. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to offer something to get into their good graces. Both Big Mom and Blackbeard needed to maintain the illusion of an amicable alliance in order to keep suspicion down. Same level of strategy.
The strategies are still the same though. The difference of taking advantage of someone in a better position than you doesn't mean they didn't do the same thing: They tricked someone into forming an alliance with them, lured them into a vulnerable spot, and then backstabbed them. It's the same level of strategy because it's the exact same plan.

Yeah cus' it totally takes the same amount of effort to infiltrate a bigger organization then rip them off and get away with it as it does to set up someone smaller than you in order to take their things. You're essentially comparing a set up robbery to a corporate take over. Or if the military analogy helps it's like a rebel faction joining the government to steal their tanks so they can fight them later compared to a warlord offering an alliance so he can steal your weapons to keep fighting his warlord fights. If you can't see the difference in grade between them...

You know what's actually amazing? This is the EXACT PHRASE you used to describe what Blackbeard did, and now you're using it to describe Big Mom's as inferior. Crazy how that works out.

Do you think having the same words means the same result? Yes they both use clout but in completely different manners.

 

[Punk Hazard]

If it's so obvious then why is the only other pirate to try it a yonkou

I'm referring to attacking Whitebeard at Marineford. Any idiot could see that after waging a war with the Marine HQ, Whitebeard would be vulnerable. Crocodile and Buggy both noted themselves that the war is a good opportunity to come for Whitebeard's head, so Teach was not the only one to realize that. He was the only one actually able to execute it because, due to being a Shichibukai, he had access to waterways that would take him there in the shortest period of time. Traveling around the OP world isn't like traveling around a city or teleporting, so even if others WANTED to, none of them COULD like Blackbeard could.

BB went to MF with a specific plan, to use the chaos to steal the strongest paramecia, that's a strategy that got him in between two of the biggest powers and out with minimal effort and his objective and you say it's not strategic.

I didn't say setting this into motion didn't require strategy, I said knowing Whitebeard would be vulnerable at Marineford isn't a strategy, that's obvious. Asking why no other people went into Marineford to steal WB's powers makes no sense either, considering Teach and his crew are the only people who know how.

Accidentally? So Burgess accidentally told BB he found Sabo and would follow him to his base then accidentally reported that location to BB so he could come? He found a hidden base no one could find

Nope. Burgess stowed away on a random ship because he was injured, and it just so happened to go to Baltigo. Him finding the Revs base was nothing but luck. Him calling the Blackbeard pirates to come fight isn't strategic. It's literally "Yo, come fight some guys cause one of their people injured me. Here they are." That's not a strategy.

destroyed a headquaterers of a rival faction

The Revs aren't a rival faction of the BB pirates.

You're using outside world constructs to enforce rules in OP and I remember someone saying you're not allowed to use real world rules here when discussing the title of Captain appearing before a characters last name.

These aren't the same thing whatsoever, considering that IN ONE PIECE, we've seen that it is the leader that decides what the group does as a whole. That's not a real world rule, that's something we've seen IN THE MANGA. Try harder.

We've seen the Streusen guides BM since she was a child.

Nope, we saw Streussen guide her WHEN she was a child. We've never seen Stresseun guide her once she's become an adult and the leader of the crew.

The burden of proof is on you but as typical you try to shift that burden to others when you know none exists for your point.

I gave you proof in the form of Big Mom being the leader and the fact that she was the one who told Pudding what to do when the wedding starts while you haven't given a single shred of proof that someone else came up with that plan, so maybe you shouldn't be bitching this much.

And that wouldn't work for Yonkou because? They need to keep territory? But other Yonkou aren't actually making many moves for territory so the pirates approaching would be small fry who could be handled through force. They need to control the territories? That's what commanders and underlings are for to ensure the network is up and running smoothly. Also PK would need strategy to get to Raftel. Your Yonkou's need above average strategy but PK doesn't argument fails.

As I said before, a pirate doesn't need to be strategic become Pirate King, he needs a competent crew and to be a competent captain. I also said that, by the same measure, an Emperor can have advisors to make up for not being as strategic as needed themselves, but that would require proof from you that Big Mom has such an operation.

No there is some evidence though, Streusen.

Nope. You have proof that Streussen advised Big Mom when she was a child...BECAUSE SHE WAS A CHILD. There is no proof that he continued to do this for her once she became captain, much less Emperor. If you want to use Stresseun, then drop proof that Stresseun did that for her as an adult, especially when you insist on bitching about me not dropping proof when I did.

You're equating showing fear or pain to being childish when that's not accurate. Your examples indicate someone has to be stoic in their handling of emotions to not be childish.

No I'm not, to either of those things. I'm equating THE WAY Blackbeard expressed fear and pain to a childish mentality. If you behave childishly, that reflects a childish mentality. My examples aren't stoic, since all of those people have audibly expressed pain(stoic would be attempting to hide that you're feeling pain, those people did not).

I'm saying isolated incidents don't reflect over all mentality. Just because someone acts childish at times or in certain situations does not mean they are childish mentally whereas BM does give that impression to a good amount of people.

Yeah, they do. These are incidents that have happened multiple times, or used to show the kind of person Blackbeard is. His personality determines his actions, therefore his actions reflect his personality. You have no argument here.

Yeah cus' it totally takes the same amount of effort to infiltrate a bigger organization then rip them off and get away with it as it does to set up someone smaller than you in order to take their things.

The amount of effort it takes to execute a plan doesn't matter when the plans are the exact same. The PLANNING is the exact same, which reflects that they have the same strategy. STRATEGY is reflected by the plan, not how hard its execution is.

"A pirate pretends to be an ally to a powerful organization, acting as though they will offer a needed service in exchange for access to greater resources, but instead plan to betray that organization while they are vulnerable and take out their leaders in order to gain more power for themselves"-this is the plan for BOTH of them

Do you think having the same words means the same result? Yes they both use clout but in completely different manners.

Except you didn't make any such distinction about how clout was used. For Blackbeard, you said him using clout to trick the WG shows his strategic abilities, but for Big Mom say that using clout to trick the Vinsmokes isn't.

 

[LBeezy]

Not taking Big Mom seriously as a character doesn't mean you can't take another character who has similarities seriously..

Why? Because at the end of the day they are merely similarities.

Big Mom and BlackBeard only have a few similarities.. they are far from being "exactly the same" as characters.


Hell, one could even take BlackBeard more seriously over Big Mom based on their Devil Fruit powers alone.. or the fact that BlackBeard has never been shown to have a mental issue where he loses control of himself due to a certain desire (food at that).. or something as simple as us readers knowing that Oda is setting up BlackBeard to be one of, if not THE, final opponents for Luffy in the series..