chaos control
Anbu Operative 🎭
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There are many people who say that Naruto would be fodder without Kurama. They argue that Naruto wouldn't have those massive chakara reserves without Kurama since Minato set up the seal so that bits of Kurama's chakara mixed with Naruto's. While that argument is true, the assumption that Naruto would be fodder is based on two foolish assumptions/predispositions:
1. Whenever people (mainly Sasuke fans) propose a Naruto without Kurama scenario, they usually propose it as if everything else in the series would be exactly the same, except for Naruto not having Kurama. This predisposition usually shows itself in threads where Sasuke fans just suddenly take Kurama away from Naruto at arbitrary points in the series (like VOTE 2), and then say that Naruto would lose. These fans act as if all of the events of the series would have gone as normal (so somehow Naruto and Sasuke still made it through all their opponents from Haku to Kaguya). They blatantly ignore the fact that without Kurama's intervention, Naruto and Sasuke would have died to Haku or Gaara at the latest, thus they wouldn't even make it to points like VOTE 1 or VOTE 2. They either ignore this fact, or alternatively they assume that Naruto kept Kurama throughout the battles of the series, but then all of a sudden Kurama just disappears or something when they get to VOTE 2 (but for whatever reason, Naruto doesn't just die due to bijuu loss... This is another thing that people ignore). Either way, Sasuke fans' "Naruto without Kurama scenarios" straight up ignore a lot of pertinent details/events and they defy the logic set up by the manga. These scenarios just don't logically work. It can't logically work if you just take Kurama away from Naruto at any arbitrary point of your choosing just so that you can do Naruto without Kurama vs Sasuke.
**There has to be a legit logical plot based reason as to why Naruto doesn't have Kurama for that hypothetical battle to work. **
Here is an example of an alternative reality where Naruto doesn't have Kurama for a logical reason:
Let's say that Rin never died. Obito was able to get to Kakashi and Rin fast enough, and he was able to stop Rin from killing herself. Together, the newly reunited complete team Minato is able to take on the Mist ninjas, and they ultimately return to Konoha safely. Obito informs his teammates along with Minato and Hiruzen about how he survived, and he tells them about Madara still being alive and about the zetsus. He even mentions about how the Zetsus vaguely talked about the eye of the moon plan and he gives away Madara's location. Tobi unravels from Obito's body and tries to stop Obito from telling too much, but ultimately Tobi is silenced and dealt with by Obito and team Minato. Eventually, Madara is found by Konoha and dealt with without much trouble since he was in his old and decrepit form. Thus, Obito never takes on Madara's ideology and therefore there is no attack on Konoha from Obito and Kurama. Minato and Kushina don't die , and Naruto doesn't have to become a jinchuuriki.
Now here, we have a plot based reason as to why Naruto doesn't have Kurama, but you will soon see that we now have a completely different series with a completely different Naruto, Sasuke, and many other characters.
For starters, Naruto has two living parents as well as his godfather Jiraiya, so despite not having Kurama, Naruto could still learn some stuff from them. Minato and Jiraiya could still teach him his canonical basics such as rasengan, summoning jutsu and shadow clone jutsu (though he wouldn't necessarily be able to make thousands of clones like he can canonically). Additionally though, he might learn chakara chains, sealing techniques, ftg, etc... from his parents. Both Minato and Jiraiya were SM users, and Naruto would most likely also still summon toads, so Naruto would likely still be taught SM by someone at some point. Chakara nature and collaboration ninjutsu would also be feasible for him as well. The list goes on and on.
**For those of you who say that Naruto wouldn't have the chakara reserve for the above stuff, I will get to that later. That statement actually has to do with the 2nd foolish assumption that people make.**
Now, let's talk about Sasuke and some other characters. As stated before, if Obito never joined Madara then Kurama's attack on Konoha wouldn't have happened. In turn, the Uchiha clan would never have been blamed, and there would have been no coup. Therefore, there would have been no Uchiha massacre.
Having said this, Sasuke would be completely different in terms of both arsenal and personality (and multiple other prominent Uchihas would too). While Sasuke would have still most likely awakened base sharingan at some point during a mission, it can not be guaranteed that he would ever awaken MS. After all, Itachi would have never killed the clan, so Sasuke would have never killed Itachi. In fact, Itachi himself might not even have MS, since there was no coup, and therefore Shisui may have never felt the need to kill himself. Going back to Obito, he wouldn't have had MS either since Rin never died. Sasuke insted might become more of a copy ninja like Kakashi instead of what he is canonically.
Who knows if even the K11 teams would remain the same. The pool of jonin senseis would still consist of Kakashi, Guy, Asuma, Kurenai, etc..., but in this alternative scenario we'd also have Obito, Rin, and possibly many Uchihas that didn't get this opportunity canonically due to being killed off. Having said this, Naruto could still end up on Kakashi's team or he could perhaps end up on Obito's team (since Obito was similar to Naruto), or anyone else's. Same goes for Sasuke and other characters. A different sensei could also mean different teachings (different from Kakashi who didn't teach Naruto anything until part 2, and who didn't teach Sakura anything at all).
Here is also another important note: It is feasible that Naruto would still go on some two year training journey with Jiraiya. Now canonically, Jiraiya taught Naruto how to break genjutsu (since Sasuke had the sharingan, and getting Sasuke back was a large motivation for Naruto's journey), and how to make a larger rasengan. Aside from that, they heavily focused on trying to get Naruto to control Kurama. In this alternate reality however, Sasuke wouldn't have left on a revenge quest, and Naruto wouldn't have had Kurama, so they could spend time training Naruto in actual decent techniques (and not just breaking genjutsu and almost killing Jiraiya with an enraged Kurama cloak).
So what is the point of all this you ask? In short, if Naruto didn't have Kurama (in an actual logical scenario that doesn't just amount to Sasuke fans reaching their hand in and taking Kurama from Naruto at any arbitrary point that is convenient for them), Naruto would be a completely different shinobi with a different history, a different arsenal, perhaps a different personality, and perhaps a different goal. Even his name would be different since he would be Naruto Namikaze and not Naruto Uzumaki. The same concept applies to Sasuke and multiple other characters.
Therefore, proposing scenarios such as "What if Kurama wasn't there (during VOTE 2)?" is completely illogical and invalid to even propose since in order to logically take Kurama away from Naruto, you need to actually rewrite the series (and essentially rewrite the entire character and history of Naruto, thus making it not Naruto vs Sasuke, but an entirely different character vs another entirely different character whose names just happen to be Naruto and Sasuke). Even if you use an actual plot point to take Kurama away from Naruto and propose something like: "After Madara extracts Kurama from Naruto, Sakura reveals that she has been studying Chiyo's reanimation technique, and she proceeds to revive Naruto in a similar way to how Gaara was revived. Meanwhile, Minato got completely erased by Madara's truth seeking balls, so he couldn't pass yin Kurama on to Naruto. Thus Naruto remained a non-jinchuuriki like Gaara." Even if you do something like that (which in itself is already a major rewrite of series events), Naruto and Sasuke still don't even make it to VOTE 2 since without Naruto getting RSM (which required him to meet Hagoromo, who Naruto met only after getting all the bijuu chakaras), Naruto and Sasuke still die to Kaguya!
So what's the point of all this? In short, the Kurama-less Naruto scenarios that many of you guys propose aren't actually conceivable and logical. Those scenarios just amount to you reaching your own hand in and taking Kurama away from Naruto at any arbitrary point that is convenient for you. The only logical propositions for Kurama-less Naruto require major rewrites to the series and to multiple characters. Therefore, Naruto without Kurama vs Sasuke is not a plausible proposition even hypothetically. The only plausible thing that is close to this is: completely different character (who simply shares the same name with the Naruto we know) vs completely different character #2 (who shares Sasuke's name).
2. Here is the 2nd foolish assumption that people make (I alluded to it earlier):
People assume that stuff like SM, rasenshuriken and other stuff wouldn't be possible without Kurama because Naruto would have Iruka level chakara reserves. @Bold is where the foolishness of the assumption comes in. Just because Naruto's reserves wouldn't be massive doesn't automatically mean that they would be piss poor. Minato was neither a jinchuuriki (in life), nor a transmigrant, but he still had the reserves for SM, large summons like Gamabunta, warping Kurama, etc... The same can be said for Jiraiya's reserves. Who's to say that Naruto's reserves couldn't amount to something like theirs? It would make sense, especially since Naruto would still be an Uzumaki and perhaps still a transmigrant. Why would his chakara reserves have to be piss poor? Heck why couldn't they at least be average (like Chouji's or Shino's)?
You people who make this assumption basically have the following kind of logic:
You: "If Queen Elizabeth wasn't born royal, she'd certainly be a penniless hobo! If Steve Jobs didn't invent Apple, he'd be a bum living in a cardboard box!"
Me: "Why is that? Couldn't they just get normal jobs and be middle class?"
You: "No! That is the most retarded notion I've ever heard!"
Me: "Really? They couldn't even work at McDonalds?"
You: "No! Now shut up! They'd be jobless penniless bums and that's final!!!"
Reflect on this.
1. Whenever people (mainly Sasuke fans) propose a Naruto without Kurama scenario, they usually propose it as if everything else in the series would be exactly the same, except for Naruto not having Kurama. This predisposition usually shows itself in threads where Sasuke fans just suddenly take Kurama away from Naruto at arbitrary points in the series (like VOTE 2), and then say that Naruto would lose. These fans act as if all of the events of the series would have gone as normal (so somehow Naruto and Sasuke still made it through all their opponents from Haku to Kaguya). They blatantly ignore the fact that without Kurama's intervention, Naruto and Sasuke would have died to Haku or Gaara at the latest, thus they wouldn't even make it to points like VOTE 1 or VOTE 2. They either ignore this fact, or alternatively they assume that Naruto kept Kurama throughout the battles of the series, but then all of a sudden Kurama just disappears or something when they get to VOTE 2 (but for whatever reason, Naruto doesn't just die due to bijuu loss... This is another thing that people ignore). Either way, Sasuke fans' "Naruto without Kurama scenarios" straight up ignore a lot of pertinent details/events and they defy the logic set up by the manga. These scenarios just don't logically work. It can't logically work if you just take Kurama away from Naruto at any arbitrary point of your choosing just so that you can do Naruto without Kurama vs Sasuke.
**There has to be a legit logical plot based reason as to why Naruto doesn't have Kurama for that hypothetical battle to work. **
Here is an example of an alternative reality where Naruto doesn't have Kurama for a logical reason:
Let's say that Rin never died. Obito was able to get to Kakashi and Rin fast enough, and he was able to stop Rin from killing herself. Together, the newly reunited complete team Minato is able to take on the Mist ninjas, and they ultimately return to Konoha safely. Obito informs his teammates along with Minato and Hiruzen about how he survived, and he tells them about Madara still being alive and about the zetsus. He even mentions about how the Zetsus vaguely talked about the eye of the moon plan and he gives away Madara's location. Tobi unravels from Obito's body and tries to stop Obito from telling too much, but ultimately Tobi is silenced and dealt with by Obito and team Minato. Eventually, Madara is found by Konoha and dealt with without much trouble since he was in his old and decrepit form. Thus, Obito never takes on Madara's ideology and therefore there is no attack on Konoha from Obito and Kurama. Minato and Kushina don't die , and Naruto doesn't have to become a jinchuuriki.
Now here, we have a plot based reason as to why Naruto doesn't have Kurama, but you will soon see that we now have a completely different series with a completely different Naruto, Sasuke, and many other characters.
For starters, Naruto has two living parents as well as his godfather Jiraiya, so despite not having Kurama, Naruto could still learn some stuff from them. Minato and Jiraiya could still teach him his canonical basics such as rasengan, summoning jutsu and shadow clone jutsu (though he wouldn't necessarily be able to make thousands of clones like he can canonically). Additionally though, he might learn chakara chains, sealing techniques, ftg, etc... from his parents. Both Minato and Jiraiya were SM users, and Naruto would most likely also still summon toads, so Naruto would likely still be taught SM by someone at some point. Chakara nature and collaboration ninjutsu would also be feasible for him as well. The list goes on and on.
**For those of you who say that Naruto wouldn't have the chakara reserve for the above stuff, I will get to that later. That statement actually has to do with the 2nd foolish assumption that people make.**
Now, let's talk about Sasuke and some other characters. As stated before, if Obito never joined Madara then Kurama's attack on Konoha wouldn't have happened. In turn, the Uchiha clan would never have been blamed, and there would have been no coup. Therefore, there would have been no Uchiha massacre.
Having said this, Sasuke would be completely different in terms of both arsenal and personality (and multiple other prominent Uchihas would too). While Sasuke would have still most likely awakened base sharingan at some point during a mission, it can not be guaranteed that he would ever awaken MS. After all, Itachi would have never killed the clan, so Sasuke would have never killed Itachi. In fact, Itachi himself might not even have MS, since there was no coup, and therefore Shisui may have never felt the need to kill himself. Going back to Obito, he wouldn't have had MS either since Rin never died. Sasuke insted might become more of a copy ninja like Kakashi instead of what he is canonically.
Who knows if even the K11 teams would remain the same. The pool of jonin senseis would still consist of Kakashi, Guy, Asuma, Kurenai, etc..., but in this alternative scenario we'd also have Obito, Rin, and possibly many Uchihas that didn't get this opportunity canonically due to being killed off. Having said this, Naruto could still end up on Kakashi's team or he could perhaps end up on Obito's team (since Obito was similar to Naruto), or anyone else's. Same goes for Sasuke and other characters. A different sensei could also mean different teachings (different from Kakashi who didn't teach Naruto anything until part 2, and who didn't teach Sakura anything at all).
Here is also another important note: It is feasible that Naruto would still go on some two year training journey with Jiraiya. Now canonically, Jiraiya taught Naruto how to break genjutsu (since Sasuke had the sharingan, and getting Sasuke back was a large motivation for Naruto's journey), and how to make a larger rasengan. Aside from that, they heavily focused on trying to get Naruto to control Kurama. In this alternate reality however, Sasuke wouldn't have left on a revenge quest, and Naruto wouldn't have had Kurama, so they could spend time training Naruto in actual decent techniques (and not just breaking genjutsu and almost killing Jiraiya with an enraged Kurama cloak).
So what is the point of all this you ask? In short, if Naruto didn't have Kurama (in an actual logical scenario that doesn't just amount to Sasuke fans reaching their hand in and taking Kurama from Naruto at any arbitrary point that is convenient for them), Naruto would be a completely different shinobi with a different history, a different arsenal, perhaps a different personality, and perhaps a different goal. Even his name would be different since he would be Naruto Namikaze and not Naruto Uzumaki. The same concept applies to Sasuke and multiple other characters.
Therefore, proposing scenarios such as "What if Kurama wasn't there (during VOTE 2)?" is completely illogical and invalid to even propose since in order to logically take Kurama away from Naruto, you need to actually rewrite the series (and essentially rewrite the entire character and history of Naruto, thus making it not Naruto vs Sasuke, but an entirely different character vs another entirely different character whose names just happen to be Naruto and Sasuke). Even if you use an actual plot point to take Kurama away from Naruto and propose something like: "After Madara extracts Kurama from Naruto, Sakura reveals that she has been studying Chiyo's reanimation technique, and she proceeds to revive Naruto in a similar way to how Gaara was revived. Meanwhile, Minato got completely erased by Madara's truth seeking balls, so he couldn't pass yin Kurama on to Naruto. Thus Naruto remained a non-jinchuuriki like Gaara." Even if you do something like that (which in itself is already a major rewrite of series events), Naruto and Sasuke still don't even make it to VOTE 2 since without Naruto getting RSM (which required him to meet Hagoromo, who Naruto met only after getting all the bijuu chakaras), Naruto and Sasuke still die to Kaguya!
So what's the point of all this? In short, the Kurama-less Naruto scenarios that many of you guys propose aren't actually conceivable and logical. Those scenarios just amount to you reaching your own hand in and taking Kurama away from Naruto at any arbitrary point that is convenient for you. The only logical propositions for Kurama-less Naruto require major rewrites to the series and to multiple characters. Therefore, Naruto without Kurama vs Sasuke is not a plausible proposition even hypothetically. The only plausible thing that is close to this is: completely different character (who simply shares the same name with the Naruto we know) vs completely different character #2 (who shares Sasuke's name).
2. Here is the 2nd foolish assumption that people make (I alluded to it earlier):
People assume that stuff like SM, rasenshuriken and other stuff wouldn't be possible without Kurama because Naruto would have Iruka level chakara reserves. @Bold is where the foolishness of the assumption comes in. Just because Naruto's reserves wouldn't be massive doesn't automatically mean that they would be piss poor. Minato was neither a jinchuuriki (in life), nor a transmigrant, but he still had the reserves for SM, large summons like Gamabunta, warping Kurama, etc... The same can be said for Jiraiya's reserves. Who's to say that Naruto's reserves couldn't amount to something like theirs? It would make sense, especially since Naruto would still be an Uzumaki and perhaps still a transmigrant. Why would his chakara reserves have to be piss poor? Heck why couldn't they at least be average (like Chouji's or Shino's)?
You people who make this assumption basically have the following kind of logic:
You: "If Queen Elizabeth wasn't born royal, she'd certainly be a penniless hobo! If Steve Jobs didn't invent Apple, he'd be a bum living in a cardboard box!"
Me: "Why is that? Couldn't they just get normal jobs and be middle class?"
You: "No! That is the most retarded notion I've ever heard!"
Me: "Really? They couldn't even work at McDonalds?"
You: "No! Now shut up! They'd be jobless penniless bums and that's final!!!"
Reflect on this.
