Islam: Is It Able To Be Reformed? How Do We Go About Reforming It?

Lelouch Vii Britannia

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Maybe we should just lock our borders until Muslims get their stuff figured out.

Like that would work lmao, people here already think that westerners are evil due to how many nations here they attacked and also you'll be giving isis a new recruitment material m8

I was mocking your "expertise" hence the quotes. It's all banter though, I have nothing personal against you.

I'm getting tired of this discussion too (if you can even call it a discussion), it's not going anywhere. I got a vacay coming up next week heading to Santo Domingo to catch up with the family, so I gotta prepare for the flight over the weekend.

Maybe we can try to have this discussion sometime in the future under better conditions. And even though I find 97% of religions obsolete in the modern world, Id still be interested in getting your interpretations of the Quran, preferably 1 on 1.

In the meantime, yall enjoy your summer where ever you are in the world. Peace and love. :cool:

You can pm me about the questions anytime, im almost here everyday

Alright take care
 
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Misо

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Islam is the most hateful religion there is, its an ideology that is based on violence and hatred towards non-Muslims.
And no, Islam cannot reformed, it can only be removed.
removing the Islamic faith is the easiest, fastest and most effective way to get rid of the Islamic terrorism once and for all

It seems you havent read the bible lol
 

Misо

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IM DEAD
 

Uchiha Leader

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The problem isn't necessarily the religion, it's the people who may use religion as a means for whatever objective they want to achieve.
 

TemplarKnight

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It seems you havent read the bible lol

I don't think you have either. The Bible doesn't command Christians to strike down the infidel or kill nonbelievers. Islam is an us versus them religion while Christianity is about recruiting everyone for salvation. The Bible doesn't command Crusades and it doesn't allow Christians to kill infidels.

Can you point to a verse where God tells Christians that the destruction of the non-believer is their job to carry out?
 

Misо

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I don't think you have either. The Bible doesn't command Christians to strike down the infidel or kill nonbelievers. Islam is an us versus them religion while Christianity is about recruiting everyone for salvation. The Bible doesn't command Crusades and it doesn't allow Christians to kill infidels.

Can you point to a verse where God tells Christians that the destruction of the non-believer is their job to carry out?

Im pretty sure Islam doesnt say that lol.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
 

TemplarKnight

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Im pretty sure Islam doesnt say that lol.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”

Christians were not around during that verse. God was commanding the Israelites to strike down the Samaritans. I'm not excusing such a verse, I'm just showing you that the Bible does not command Christians to do war and battle with nonbelievers.

There are 109 verses approximately in the Qur'an that call on the destruction of the non-believer by the hands of the believer.


Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"


Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
 

Misо

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Christians were not around during that verse. God was commanding the Israelites to strike down the Samaritans. I'm not excusing such a verse, I'm just showing you that the Bible does not command Christians to do war and battle with nonbelievers.

There are 109 verses approximately in the Qur'an that call on the destruction of the non-believer by the hands of the believer.


Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"


Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Lol I didnt wanna turn this into a religious debate, but oh well..


3:151 theyre talking about hell lol, doesn't Christianity say the same thing

{2:190} Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

{2:191} And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

{2:192} And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

{2:193} And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.


^ Talking about people who fight YOU.
prophet muhammad was in the war with the non-believers. Plus, Muslims dont think Hadiths are the words of god, or very reliable, so theres no point in quoting something from it.
 

TemplarKnight

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Lol I didnt wanna turn this into a religious debate, but oh well..


3:151 theyre talking about hell lol, doesn't Christianity say the same thing

{2:190} Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

{2:191} And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

{2:192} And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

{2:193} And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.


^ Talking about people who fight YOU.
prophet muhammad was in the war with the non-believers. Plus, Muslims dont think Hadiths are the words of god, or very reliable, so theres no point in quoting something from it.



Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


The verses may seem defensive, but historically, Islam was not spread through defensive conquest but that of offense. If the crusades weren't launched, I think Europe would be mostly Muslim right now due to how fast Islam spread, not through conversion but by the end of a sword.


Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”


Here again we see this fixation on fighting, conquest and destruction. When raiding caravans, Muhammad would use this verse in order to steel men that were not willing to end lives.

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

A clear sign that only a life of death and destruction is prescribed to the non-believer in Islam and in the next life, it shall be much worse with no one near to help them.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

This is a verse of encouragement for suicide bombers.
 

Lelouch Vii Britannia

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Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


The verses may seem defensive, but historically, Islam was not spread through defensive conquest but that of offense. If the crusades weren't launched, I think Europe would be mostly Muslim right now due to how fast Islam spread, not through conversion but by the end of a sword.


Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”


Here again we see this fixation on fighting, conquest and destruction. When raiding caravans, Muhammad would use this verse in order to steel men that were not willing to end lives.

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

A clear sign that only a life of death and destruction is prescribed to the non-believer in Islam and in the next life, it shall be much worse with no one near to help them.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

This is a verse of encouragement for suicide bombers.

Ugh...pure stupidity, get the god damn explantions from non biased sites or educated muslims instead of your own ass, you need to know the history of it to interpret it correctly
 

TemplarKnight

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Ugh...pure stupidity, get the god damn explantions from non biased sites or educated muslims instead of your own ass, you need to know the history of it to interpret it correctly

You do realize I got those from the Quran right?

There is no "history" of it. After Muhammad got kicked out, he tried raiding place after place and was involved with fights between people that attacked him and that he attacked.

The Quran even allows you to deceive non-believers.
 

Lelouch Vii Britannia

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You do realize I got those from the Quran right?

There is no "history" of it. After Muhammad got kicked out, he tried raiding place after place and was involved with fights between people that attacked him and that he attacked.

The Quran even allows you to deceive non-believers.

Of course you dumbass, but you need to know his story and the hadith to interpret the quran, (the story sheds light on whom the quran was talking about)

"No history" ugh......

Only when your life is threatened which i think im fine besides if you dont believe me there are plenty of unbiased sites and scholars who actually studied the history, get off the internet "expert" of the religion and look it up from its own people
 
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TemplarKnight

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Of course you dumbass, but you need to know his story and the hadith to interpret the quran, (the story sheds light on whom the quran was talking about)

"No history" ugh......

Only when your life is threatened which i think im fine besides if you dont believe me there are plenty of unbiased sites and scholars who actually studied the history, get off the internet "expert" of the religion and look it up from its own people

Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim should appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel that way..

. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.


The Qu'ran allows Muslims to deceive should it allow them safety or that it should protect the faith. I would rather not ask Muslims what the context is of a clearly foul and dishonest verse, and would rather ask someone who doesn't have a bias. When a religion allows someone to deceive in order to "protect the faith" there really is no trusting them.
 

Lelouch Vii Britannia

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Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim should appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel that way..

. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.


The Qu'ran allows Muslims to deceive should it allow them safety or that it should protect the faith. I would rather not ask Muslims what the context is of a clearly foul and dishonest verse, and would rather ask someone who doesn't have a bias. When a religion allows someone to deceive in order to "protect the faith" there really is no trusting them.

Lmao here we go again with our expert imam interpeting the quran

Please see this:

Like i said no, only the shia sect (which i dont belong to permits that but i doubt they would lie to you) many of the hadiths outright disapprove and show how false your imam level interpretion is, its disturbing to know that many "intelligent" individuals believe that 1.6 billion humans are liars, those who do honestly need some help for excessive paranoia anyhow here are the hadith disapproving of our imam friend here

"Abdullah b. Mas’ud reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: Telling of truth is a virtue and virtue leads to Paradise and the servant who endeavours to tell the truth is recorded as truthful, and lie is obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the servant who endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar. Ibn Abu Shaiba reported this from Allah’s Apostle"


Abdullah reported that the Prophet (p) said, “You must be truthful. Truthfulness leads to dutifulness and dutifulness leads to the Garden. A man continues to tell the truth until he is written as a siddiq with Allah. Beware of lying. Lying leads to deviance and deviance leads to the Fire. A man continues to lie until he is written as a liar with Allah.

"The Prophet (p) guaranteed paradise to anyone if they can avoid lying even when joking.
The Prophet said: I guarantee a house in the surroundings of Paradise for a man who avoids quarrelling even if he were in the right, a house in the middle of Paradise for a man who avoids lying even if he were joking, and a house in the upper part of Paradise for a man who made his character good"

Also to fiji this a prime example of why you need you have education before you interpet stuff

To interested readers and not nutcases heres the best explaination i found
 
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Lelouch Vii Britannia

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Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” – 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Also whats this? Couldnt this be easily be translated by haters as a "christian taqiya" verse? This is just one of the examples how someone could prevert verses into his own liking and interption willingly lying to the public and hiding its explaintions and addtional info about so people could listen to him, this is the sites you listen to who practice actual "taqiya" everyday
 
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TemplarKnight

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You can't deny that Islam is a confrontational religion. This religion is the only religion that tells you to make war with the non-believer. Do you realize that Jihad has been going on for 14000 years? The kill count is above 200 Million total deaths at the hands of Islamic destruction.

The religion teaches and permits this behavior which is why it's not the same as disliking a race of people because not all people are the same from a race but when people follow a specific teaching that teaches destruction and killing it's not islamophobic to be wary of that group.
 

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honestly asking Islam to be reformed without terrorists preaching in the name of allah is like how Christianity has been trying to purge homophobic racists in the name of God. Both of those ain't happening and those minorities are so tightly embedded in the culture of those religions that it's nearly impossible to reform Islam
 

Misо

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Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim should appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel that way..

. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.


The Qu'ran allows Muslims to deceive should it allow them safety or that it should protect the faith. I would rather not ask Muslims what the context is of a clearly foul and dishonest verse, and would rather ask someone who doesn't have a bias. When a religion allows someone to deceive in order to "protect the faith" there really is no trusting them.

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