Danzo vs. Hiruzen
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KidGamer65
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-Katon shuts down Baku and Fuuton.
-Hiruzen is superior in close combat.
-He's superior in mid range and long range since Danzo's only mid-long range techs are Fuuton which are hard countered by Katon.
Stamina might be a big issue for him in s1, but he definitely wins s2 with mid difficulty.
-Hiruzen is superior in close combat.
-He's superior in mid range and long range since Danzo's only mid-long range techs are Fuuton which are hard countered by Katon.
Stamina might be a big issue for him in s1, but he definitely wins s2 with mid difficulty.
BenjerminGaye
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can hiruzen break the paralysis seal?
KidGamer65
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You mean the seal that Danzo will never land?
TheEvilOne
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Is Danzo allowed to use ninjutsu and genjutsu? If not, Hiruzen might be able to win with high difficulty.
BenjerminGaye
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hell definitely land it. 10 min izanagi and sharingan precog demands that much.
KidGamer65
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A 10 minute Izanagi and precog to boost speed feats he already barely has don't help much when you get obliterated by a long range or mid range attack every time you try to come close. Then we have the fact that Danzo's close combat feats are nonexistent on top of the fact that Hiruzen actually has good feats on top of Enma on top of having clones so I can safely say that Danzo's seal doesn't help him here./
BenjerminGaye
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why would he spawn long or even mid range. hell spawn right behind hiruzen the same way he did to sasuke.
And i can comfortably put sasuke cqc well above hiruzen and enma, which ends up netting the seal.
He's going to touch hiruzen. the seal is gonna be placed.
KidGamer65
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Never said he'd spawn mid or long range nor does it matter if he does. He can't get the jump on Hiruzen due to his sense of smell. He's not fast enough to touch or grab Hiruzen before Hiruzen can react so Hiruzen simply creates distance and then starts to overwhelm Danzo from mid or long range.
Sasuke only got touched because he charged top speed at Danzo, allowing Danzo to sacrifice himself to touch his neck. Doesn't apply to this scenario unless Hiruzen does the same thing, which he won't. Also doesn't apply to this situation because Hiruzen has no reason to ever get that up close and personal to Danzo when Enma can change length at will. Hiruzen's reach>Sasuke's reach. Hiruzen in CQC>>Danzo in CQC. A>B>C logic doesn't apply. Danzo can't reach him. The seal is never landed. Ever. Doesn't even include the clones you didn't address.
BenjerminGaye
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Karin is one of the best sensors in the manga and even she doesn't pick of on danzo's location immediately. So something that's not as fast or accurate as chakra sensing will take longer. What speed feats does hiruzen have that put him above danzo?
Danzo would have touched sasuke multiple times had it not been for susanoo. Sasuke's chidori long spear and multiple long range mid range and short range attacks. and still ended up with danzo behind his back multiple times. And again this a no sharingan conservative danzo.
youre not really providing a case as to why hiruzen who has no such defense, or even speed has the means to distance himself from danzo, or defend himself from izanagi.
KidGamer65
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That's a lie.
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Karin is the one who warned Sasuke where Danzo was here. There is no occurrence where she was too slow in sensing him nor would that make sense. If he's there and she's sensing she'll pick it up ASAP. Whether or not she reacts ASAP is on her own physical capabilities not the capabilities of her sensing.
I never once said that Hiruzen is faster than Danzo. I said that Danzo has never displayed any kind of speed that'd let you argue he touches Hiruzen before Hiruzen can react. That's not debatable as he has no notable speed feats. The bold doesn't make sense either. There is no speed involved when it comes to sensing someone's presence. If they are there you will sense them via whatever method you have if said method is viable, and Hiruzen was able to smell out the locations of Hashirama and Tobirama in the dark so he'll smell the Danzo the moment he appears.
What are you talking about? Lmao. I'm not sure if we are reading the same Manga or not, but there is literally only one time where Danzo would've hit Sasuke had he not used Susanoo and that was only because Danzo was able to spawn behind Sasuke without his warning. Sasuke cannot sense. Hiruzen has a method of doing so thus this instance is irrelevant. Underlined makes no sense either.
-Danzo got Sasuke's back twice.
-He was using Susanoo both of those times.
-Thus CQC techniques not preventing Danzo from touching Sasuke don't help your point.
I've provided a perfectly fine case. The one not providing a good case is you. Your argument is essentially: "Danzo touches Hiruzen because he was able to touch Sasuke and Sasuke>Hiruzen in CQC", even though that logic is flawed as explained above.
-Hiruzen can smell Danzo so surprise attacks aren't a factor.
-Danzo has no speed feats so I'm not sure how you are planning to argue that Danzo will grab Hiruzen before Hiruzen, who actually has decent, at least some anyway, speed feats as an Edo under his belt.
-From short range Hiruzen has the advantage due to superior CQC skills and Enma. His reach w/ Enma prevents Danzo from touching him unlike with what happened when Sasuke lunged at Danzo and got right in his face.
-From long and mid range he has an obvious advantage I don't need to explain.
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BenjerminGaye
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No its the truth:
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nor does it change the premise, hiruzen's nose is nowhere near as good as karin
dodging susanno?
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Or how about completely dodging sasuke?
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both are better than anything hiruzen has shown.
He gained 0 speed feats as an edo(unless you count leaning back before getting blitzed a speed feat)
and in part 1 he got beat up on by extremely underpowered hashirama and tobirama. To the point that tobirama didn't even need ftg.
danzo got behind sasuke 3 times.
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are we saying susanoo isn't capable of short mid and long range combat?
Last i checked it was and all 3 were on full display in sasuke v danzo yet danzo managed to get behind him on 3 different occasions.
Its perfectly sound logic. Susanno is a far better offence and defence than merely emna and smelling and yet danzo was still forcing sasuke's hand and and ripping his susanoo open. And yet danzo was still able to put the seal on.
Your overhyping the fck outta his smelling ability, like its some bee all end all. Like competent ninja cant hide their scent. I know mindless edo's cant.
so unless his smelling ability is close to that of karins sensing he's not gonna react as fast which inevitably means he gets ran up on.
Not to mention enma can still catch the seal as well. Or get dropped by genjutsu. Either way once danzo forces the range down hiruzen is losing.
KidGamer65
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All you see is her say "huh?". Danzo revealed himself the moment he reappeared so again, I have no idea what your point is. If he revealed himself the moment he appeared how are you coming to the conclusion that Karin didn't sense him on time? I literally just posted a scan of her sensing Danzo out perfectly (which you ignored of course) so there's really nothing to debate here even with the presence of this scan.
What's worse is that if you just thought about what you were saying instead of trying to force it in order to prove your point you'd realize it doesn't make sense. Sensing picks up the chakra of anyone in the area. Sense of smell does the same thing, but with things that have a scent. If you are present you'll be sensed. Is Danzo present? Yes. Thus he'll be picked up immediately. Izanagi doesn't make him exempt from these basic facts. The idea of any lag is baseless and makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Dodging a tired and injured Sasuke isn't a feat worth mentioning. You can get the dodging Susanoo one but of course these are irrelevant in the context of your argument, a statement you've ignored twice now. Do these feats let Danzo blitz Hiruzen? No? Ok, so they don't matter and you wasted your time bringing these instead of conceding to the original point, that Danzo has no speed feat that let him blitz Hiruzen. Surprise is the only reason Danzo accomplished 90% of the things he did against Sasuke and the 10%, which includes landing the seal, had nothing to do with Izanagi. It had to do with Sasuke purposely getting in Danzo's face.
I hope you are joking. The first one was addressed. The second one was addressed. He got behind him but is that a scenario where he needed Susanoo to not get hit like you claimed? No. He was using Susanoo and he failed to land any hits because Sasuke knew where was was due to Karin. The 3rd occasion is because he was immobilized by Baku. Nothing to do with Izanagi so why are you even bringing it up.
So yes, Danzo would've only hit Sasuke once and landed the seal had it not been for Izanagi.
Susanoo being capable of close-mid ranged combat is irrelevant. Did Danzo land the seal when Sasuke was using Susanoo? No, so I have no idea where you think you are going with this point.
Idk if you are playing dumb on purpose but it's pretty obvious why what you are saying makes zero sense.
*sigh*
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That is where Danzo landed the seal. Where do you see Sasuke using Susanoo? Nowhere. Nowhere at all. So the claim "he landed the seal on Sasuke who has Susanoo which is >>>> everything Hiruzen can do" is irrelevant because Danzo didn't get past Susanoo to land the seal, he was only able to ever lay a hand on Sasuke when Sasuke charged straight to him with no defense with the intent of landing a direct hit.
"Danzo was still ripping his Susanoo open"
Yes, with help from a beast Hiruzen can easily counter with a single hand sign. Not sure why you brought this point up.
What? Now we are making up abilities at our will? The only character in this Manga whoever tried to hide his scent needed a camouflaging Ninjutsu yet this guy is really going to try and argue that Danzo can magically "hide his scent with the power of his will" or something like that. :lol To hide your scent you need either a technique or some kind of equipment. Danzo has shown neither.
Addressed and irrelevant. There is no "sensing speed" when it comes to sensing the presence of an object. It's something you made up.
He's going to bind a staff with a seal? Lmao are you joking? The staff doesn't move on it's own, Hiruzen swings it. So it being binded is irrelevant and is a waste. LMAO @ landing Genjutsu on the staff. Don't think I even need to address that one.
Lmao Hiruzen spanks Danzo. Manga feats, portrayal, hype and pretty much every measure you can get agree with that.