Base Hashirama vs Adult EMS Sasuke

[Hashiroids]

Location: VOTE

Restrictions: Rikudou chakra

They start 100 meters apart

 

[KidGamer65]

Adult EMS Sasuke would likely equal EMS Madara who is stronger than Base Hashirama. So Sasuke wins.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Adult EMS Sasuke would likely equal EMS Madara who is stronger than Base Hashirama. So Sasuke wins.

pretty sure hashi was going toe to toe with ems maddy and kyuubi.

 

[Disaster]

It would be like adding lightning nature element and amaterasu to madara's arsenal the things madara lacked that couldve ended the fight instantly so ems sasuke takes this one

 

[KidGamer65]

pretty sure hashi was going toe to toe with ems maddy and kyuubi.

No, he was about to get wrecked by Madara and Kurama.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

No, he was about to get wrecked by Madara and Kurama.

nahh, he held his own until they fused.

 

[KidGamer65]

nahh, he held his own until they fused.

Ohh you mean before. Well Madara wasn't even using Susanoo before. It was just Kurama and him most likely using basic jutsu vs. Base Hashirama.

 

[The Messiah]

Ohh you mean before. Well Madara wasn't even using Susanoo before. It was just Kurama and him most likely using basic jutsu vs. Base Hashirama.

Well he did use V4.

Ot: Sasuke wins high diff. He has more fire power.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Ohh you mean before. Well Madara wasn't even using Susanoo before. It was just Kurama and him most likely using basic jutsu vs. Base Hashirama.

Madara with Final Susanoo and Kurama vs Base Hashirama with Mokujin and Mokuryu. Thats before and pretty sure Final Susanoo needs EMS.

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On topic: If EMS Sasuke can use PS where I think he can plus his other Sharingan power, he can take down Base Hashirama hard diff

 

[KidGamer65]

Well he did use V4.

Ot: Sasuke wins high diff. He has more fire power.

True, but that was right before PS came out.

Madara with Final Susanoo and Kurama vs Base Hashirama with Mokujin and Mokuryu. Thats before and pretty sure Final Susanoo needs EMS.

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On topic: If EMS Sasuke can use PS where I think he can plus his other Sharingan power, he can take down Base Hashirama hard diff

Madara didn't use V4 to fight Hashirama. V4 came up to block Bijuu Dama and then PS came out.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Ohh you mean before. Well Madara wasn't even using Susanoo before. It was just Kurama and him most likely using basic jutsu vs. Base Hashirama.

yeah he did. He used V4, and had kurama using biju bomb. Its only the fusion that made hashirama turn around and run and even then he defended himself against the bladed tailed beast bomb.

Based on his performance base hashirama beats ems madara. And by your reasoning he beats adult sasuke.

 

[KidGamer65]

yeah he did. He used V4, and had kurama using biju bomb. Its only the fusion that made hashirama turn around and run and even then he defended himself against the bladed tailed beast bomb.

Based on his performance base hashirama beats ems madara. And by your reasoning he beats adult sasuke.

This doesn't make sense. He used V4 to block Bijuu Dama at the very moment before they fused. That's it. That's not Hashirama fighting on par w/ V4 Susanoo AND Kurama using Mokujin because that wasn't even a fight between V4, Kurama and Mokujin. SM Hashirama using Mokujin has already matched Madara's PS on panel. Thus Base Hashirama will not do the same as SM Hashirama>>Base Hashirama. Thus if Adult Sasuke is as strong as that same Madara he'd beat Hashirama.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

This doesn't make sense. He used V4 to block Bijuu Dama at the very moment before they fused. That's it. That's not Hashirama fighting on par w/ V4 Susanoo AND Kurama using Mokujin because that wasn't even a fight between V4, Kurama and Mokujin. SM Hashirama using Mokujin has already matched Madara's PS on panel. Thus Base Hashirama will not do the same as SM Hashirama>>Base Hashirama. Thus if Adult Sasuke is as strong as that same Madara he'd beat Hashirama.

that's edo madara. hes far stronger than what he was alive, and to top it off hashirama had to hold up the barrier while fighting him it doesn't count.

Hashirama didnt go sm until late into the fight. While ems madara came at him with kyuubi and couldn't kill him.


Sm hashirama>Madara and kyuubi fusion>Hashirama>ems madara on his own.

 

[KidGamer65]

that's edo madara. hes far stronger than what he was alive, and to top it off hashirama had to hold up the barrier while fighting him it doesn't count.

Hashirama didnt go sm until late into the fight. While ems madara came at him with kyuubi and couldn't kill him.


Sm hashirama>Madara and kyuubi fusion>Hashirama>ems madara on his own.

Lmao it's 2017, approaching 3 years since the Manga ended and people still believe this false narrative? Edo Madara is not far stronger than he was when he was alive. What is blatantly shown and stated by Madara himself is that his PS is no different from when he was alive and that as an Edo PS is his full power. His extra abilities are inferior. And no, Hashirama wasn't holding up the barrier. The barrier he was holding up got wrecked when Obito became the Jin and then Obito replaced it with his own.

Doesn't matter. Madara was fighting him w/ Kurama only. Not his full power on top of Kurama's full power. So in no universe did Hashirama take on Madara and Kurama.

SM Hashirama>PS Kurama>EMS Madara>Base Hashirama. Facts.

 

[Oblivionx]

Sasuke wins with PS and enton.

 

[Unorthodox]

Teen Sasuke after the war wins this.

Adult Sasuke even with no ps can mop hashirama he already cut a god tree root several times larger than his susanoo, God tree > mokuton.
Enton blade is icing on the cake.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Lmao it's 2017, approaching 3 years since the Manga ended and people still believe this false narrative? Edo Madara is not far stronger than he was when he was alive. What is blatantly shown and stated by Madara himself is that his PS is no different from when he was alive and that as an Edo PS is his full power. His extra abilities are inferior. And no, Hashirama wasn't holding up the barrier. The barrier he was holding up got wrecked when Obito became the Jin and then Obito replaced it with his own.

Doesn't matter. Madara was fighting him w/ Kurama only. Not his full power on top of Kurama's full power. So in no universe did Hashirama take on Madara and Kurama.

SM Hashirama>PS Kurama>EMS Madara>Base Hashirama. Facts.

That doesn't mean that Madara isn't stronger in Edo Form. To imply he isn't is kind of silly.

Mokuton is a huge boost of power to Madara. It is a fact that Hashirama cells boost both the strength of one's jutsus and one's chakra size. (Chakra size only matters when clones are created since Edo Tensei's constantly refill one's chakra) Then add in the specific techniques that complement his own abilities.

Alive Madara could never use his rinnegan in combat. You may argue that alive Madara has Kurama, to which I'd argue is true, but Kurama without a host is significantly weaker than a full powered rinnegan. Think Edo Nagato. Also Edo Madara *could* use Kurama, he was just unavailable.


Edo Madara has Mokuton, EMS, Rinnegan, and an undying body.
Mokuton is considered to be one of the Strongest Kenkkei Genkkei's, Rinnegan is the strongest Doujutsu. Edo Madara simply is stronger than Alive Madara.

And what kind of logic says extra abilities don't move the needle? Shadow Clone and Mokuton clones are 'inferior' to PS but can still find a lot of utility in the course of battle.

 

[KidGamer65]

That doesn't mean that Madara isn't stronger in Edo Form. To imply he isn't is kind of silly.

Mokuton is a huge boost of power to Madara. It is a fact that Hashirama cells boost both the strength of one's jutsus and one's chakra size. (Chakra size only matters when clones are created since Edo Tensei's constantly refill one's chakra) Then add in the specific techniques that complement his own abilities.

Alive Madara could never use his rinnegan in combat. You may argue that alive Madara has Kurama, to which I'd argue is true, but Kurama without a host is significantly weaker than a full powered rinnegan. Think Edo Nagato. Also Edo Madara *could* use Kurama, he was just unavailable.


Edo Madara has Mokuton, EMS, Rinnegan, and an undying body.
Mokuton is considered to be one of the Strongest Kenkkei Genkkei's, Rinnegan is the strongest Doujutsu. Edo Madara simply is stronger than Alive Madara.

And what kind of logic says extra abilities don't move the needle? Shadow Clone and Mokuton clones are 'inferior' to PS but can still find a lot of utility in the course of battle.

No, that's literally exactly what this means. Bold is false. Not once in this entire Manga have you ever seen Hashirama's cells increase the offensive power of someone's Ninjutsu. It's always been and shown and stated to increase vitality. Madara's Susanoo is the same as when he was alive. Hashi's DNA boosting Ninjutsu power is baseless.

-Not Danzo.
-Not Madara.
-Not Obito.
-Not Orochimaru.
-Not Naruto after getting that transplant.
-Not Sasuke after Kabuto healed him using the cells.

This entire post can be simplified by saying "Edo Madara is stronger because he has Mokuton and Rinnegan, and Rinnegan is strongest Dojutsu while Mokuton is OP". Lmao. Let's actually look at what those eyes and that KKG gives him. All his Mokuton is at the level of Base Hashirama's Mokuton. Is that on par w/ his stronger abilities like PS? No. Irrelevant to how powerful he is when going all out. His Rinnegan is a fake Rinnegan. It's powers are inferior to his Susanoo's full powers regardless of Rinnegan being the strongest Dojutsu. Also irrelevant.

Sure, Kurama is inferior to a fully powered Rinnegan. However Madara does not have such while he's an Edo. Fake Rinnegan=/=Real Rinnegan. Edo Nagato isn't the original user so his performance is irrelevant to that point, but relevant to the point that Full Kurama>Fake Rinnegan. A simple comparison of the feats any Rinnegan user who isn't Living Madara, Hagoromo or Sasuke will tell you that.

The final bold doesn't matter. We are talking about overall strength. Weaker abilities than your best abilities don't determine your power. EMS Madara doesn't get any stronger from getting abilities weaker than Susanoo. BM Naruto doesn't get any stronger from developing abilities like mini-FRS and more Rasengan variants when his Kurama Mode far surpasses all of that. Well roundedness is NOT the same as power.

-Living Madara fights SM Hashirama, forces Hashirama to use Shinsuusenju to match him.
-Edo Madara fights SM Hashirama, is subdued without Shinsuusenju ever touching the field.

Like I said, dead this myth. It's not 2012 anymore.

 

[Tazzilla88]

No, that's literally exactly what this means. Bold is false. Not once in this entire Manga have you ever seen Hashirama's cells increase the offensive power of someone's Ninjutsu. It's always been and shown and stated to increase vitality. Madara's Susanoo is the same as when he was alive. Hashi's DNA boosting Ninjutsu power is baseless.

Spoiler

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Chakra is made up of 身体エネルギ Physical Energy and 精神エネルギ Spiritual Energy. The combination of these two elements creates chakra.

Spoiler

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Now what happens when one of the two ingredients receive an extra enhancement. The finished product too is enhanced.

And even if I were wrong about that. The Sage of Six Paths chakra is more powerful than Indra's.

Spoiler

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This entire post can be simplified by saying "Edo Madara is stronger because he has Mokuton and Rinnegan, and Rinnegan is strongest Dojutsu while Mokuton is OP".

No this entire post can be broken down into don't discount the little things. A Sage Mode Enhanced Dark Swamp would be deep enough to sink PS in theory. However, Mokuton forest growing across the swamp in the instant changes things. It's exactly the same way you analyzed the sannin and EMS Sasuke without actually looking at all the little techniques the sannin possess which used in tandem make those shinobi much more powerful than you'd have thought. The same way Naruto with his shadow clone jutsu should've have been a complete nonfactor in the Zabuza v Kakashi fight, but ultimately his presence helped Kakashi snag the first W. You've bought in to the biggest thing goes smashy smash and that means strength. But that's not necessarily so.

Lmao. Let's actually look at what those eyes and that KKG gives him. All his Mokuton is at the level of Base Hashirama's Mokuton. Is that on par w/ his stronger abilities like PS? No. Irrelevant to how powerful he is when going all out. His Rinnegan is a fake Rinnegan. It's powers are inferior to his Susanoo's full powers regardless of Rinnegan being the strongest Dojutsu. Also irrelevant..

Again stop simplying things so much. What about the strategic value of Deep Forest Bloom. Being able to cut down mountains is nice until you find yourself alone in a pocket dimension because your opponent was awake and phased. The strategic value of Preta Path

Sure, Kurama is inferior to a fully powered Rinnegan. However Madara does not have such while he's an Edo. Fake Rinnegan=/=Real Rinnegan. Edo Nagato isn't the original user so his performance is irrelevant to that point, but relevant to the point that Full Kurama>Fake Rinnegan. A simple comparison of the feats any Rinnegan user who isn't Living Madara, Hagoromo or Sasuke will tell you that.

No, that's silly. Edo Nagato's performance is irrelevant to the point Full Kurama > Fake Rinnegan because he isn't the original user. So you can't argue that Nagato's power paled in comparison to Reanimated Madara or Sasuke because he's of a different set. However, I wasn't aware of Madara's Rinnegan being neutered. I'd like you to show me. I find that claim dubious as "fake rinnegans" are used by the paths which are cadavers. But, I very well could be wrong.

Edo-Madara could use Sage Mode. I'd like to further point out that you can't assert that Edo-Madara doesn't have access to Sage Mode which would enhance his abilities. Edo-Hashirama proves Edo-Tensei isn't a restriction on Sage Mode. Madara while reanimated immediately used sage mode. Given the lack of learning curve we have no reason to assume that he couldn't do it before. Not doing it in a situation =/ not being able to do it. We simply didn't see it. Though one would point out that except for one moment Madara's chest was clothed before he was reanimated and sage mode comes and goes.

The final bold doesn't matter. We are talking about overall strength. Weaker abilities than your best abilities don't determine your power. EMS Madara doesn't get any stronger from getting abilities weaker than Susanoo. BM Naruto doesn't get any stronger from developing abilities like mini-FRS and more Rasengan variants when his Kurama Mode far surpasses all of that. Well roundedness is NOT the same as power.

According to whom. I'd like to know who set out and determined that strength was determined by your biggest, baddest, technique. The ability to overcome more situations could easily be defined as being stronger. The ability to defeat more shinobi could be used as a metric. So who exactly picked the metric you are using?

-Living Madara fights SM Hashirama, forces Hashirama to use Shinsuusenju to match him.
-Edo Madara fights SM Hashirama, is subdued without Shinsuusenju ever touching the field.

Like I said, dead this myth. It's not 2012 anymore.

KG stop oversimplifying. Strategy... Ninjas.
Edo Madara fights living Madara, Edo Madara wins.

 

[KidGamer65]

Spoiler

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Chakra is made up of 身体エネルギ Physical Energy and 精神エネルギ Spiritual Energy. The combination of these two elements creates chakra.

Spoiler

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Now what happens when one of the two ingredients receive an extra enhancement. The finished product too is enhanced.

And even if I were wrong about that. The Sage of Six Paths chakra is more powerful than Indra's.

Spoiler

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Wrong. Enhancing physical energy enhances chakra amount. Physical energy is stamina. More stamina=More chakra, not more powerful chakra. Rikudo's chakra is irrelevant here as we've blatantly seen the effect Hashirama's DNA has on Madara and it didn't increase the power of his Ninjutsu. Don't make theories for things that need no explanation.

And Senjutsu is a bad example because Nature Energy is what enhances the Spirit and Physical Energy. That's adding something new altogether. Adding Hashi's DNA adds physical energy. Not something new.

Lmao it's hilarious. We've seen Edo Madara's power. We've seen that his Susanoo and other Ninjutsu are not stronger than when he was alive and I've even brought this up to you and it was in the post you addressed. But instead of just conceding you are trying to make excuses for why what you think is true despite the Manga literally showing otherwise. Why do people always do this?

No this entire post can be broken down into don't discount the little things. A Sage Mode Enhanced Dark Swamp would be deep enough to sink PS in theory. However, Mokuton forest growing across the swamp in the instant changes things. It's exactly the same way you analyzed the sannin and EMS Sasuke without actually looking at all the little techniques the sannin possess which used in tandem make those shinobi much more powerful than you'd have thought. The same way Naruto with his shadow clone jutsu should've have been a complete nonfactor in the Zabuza v Kakashi fight, but ultimately his presence helped Kakashi snag the first W. You've bought in to the biggest thing goes smashy smash and that means strength. But that's not necessarily so.

Again stop simplying things so much. What about the strategic value of Deep Forest Bloom. Being able to cut down mountains is nice until you find yourself alone in a pocket dimension because your opponent was awake and phased. The strategic value of Preta Path

No, it wouldn't. Not in theory or in reality. That is unless your definition of "theory" is a very stretched out version of reality, but that's not relevant to the point at hand here. And I can only pray that you aren't referring to Orochimaru when you talk about a Mokuton forest growing across the swamp. As if Orochimaru possesses the level of Mokuton necessary to do this. There you go again. :lol

What you are doing here and what you did with the Sannin is exaggerate the impact little techniques make in high scale battles most likely because you are a fan of how Ninja battles were before pure strength dominated the results. Lmao it's painfully obvious especially since you aren't the only one who does this. Naruto's shadow clones helped Kakashi win because that was a day where tactics like that helped. That age has long passed. Don't exaggerate the impact certain techs have in a battle of high tiers because it only makes your argument look bad. The bolded is a very perfect example of this.

Quit complicating things that are in reality very simple. That's how we get people claiming things like how a forest of pollen matters against PS like you are in the bold, or "spam this this and this in hopes of distracting the foe" Sure, posts like these look strategic and in-depth at a first glance, but once you actually start reading into them you realize that none of these things are possible because the person who typed them out decided to underrate and ignore some abilities of the person they were arguing against.

No, that's silly. Edo Nagato's performance is irrelevant to the point Full Kurama > Fake Rinnegan because he isn't the original user. So you can't argue that Nagato's power paled in comparison to Reanimated Madara or Sasuke because he's of a different set. However, I wasn't aware of Madara's Rinnegan being neutered. I'd like you to show me. I find that claim dubious as "fake rinnegans" are used by the paths which are cadavers. But, I very well could be wrong.

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Yes. Edo Madara's Rinnegan is very gimped, so saying "Rinnegan is the strongest Dojutsu" as evidence of Edo Madara's superiority doesn't help you much here. What the Six Paths of Pain use aren't Fake Rinnegan nor are they even Rinnegan in the first place. The main user channels his powers through the bodies and his eyes are simply reflected in theirs.

Edo-Madara could use Sage Mode. I'd like to further point out that you can't assert that Edo-Madara doesn't have access to Sage Mode which would enhance his abilities. Edo-Hashirama proves Edo-Tensei isn't a restriction on Sage Mode. Madara while reanimated immediately used sage mode. Given the lack of learning curve we have no reason to assume that he couldn't do it before. Not doing it in a situation =/ not being able to do it. We simply didn't see it. Though one would point out that except for one moment Madara's chest was clothed before he was reanimated and sage mode comes and goes.

Huh?

Uh, no. He obviously couldn't. Yes, Edo Zombies can use Sage Mode. Does Madara have Sage Mode? No. I suggest you go re-read chapter 560. Madara didn't obtain Sage Mode till he was brought back to life, as in real flesh and blood, and the only reason he obtained it is cause he stole the chakra from Hashirama. Come on now.

According to whom. I'd like to know who set out and determined that strength was determined by your biggest, baddest, technique. The ability to overcome more situations could easily be defined as being stronger. The ability to defeat more shinobi could be used as a metric. So who exactly picked the metric you are using?

The stronger people you can fight on par w/ determines how strong you are as an individual. Edo Madara fights on par w/ a Hashirama not using his full power. Living Madara fights on par w/ a full powered Hashirama. Doesn't take much thought to realize who is stronger.

]KG stop oversimplifying. Strategy... Ninjas.
Edo Madara fights living Madara, Edo Madara wins.

What? How is this a response to anything in that last bit?

Edo Madara subdued by a gimped Hashirama.

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Living Madara pushing full power Hashirama to his limts.

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Idk what you and others think the impact Rinnegan and Mokuton have in place of Kurama on Madara's battles against other shinobi but the author himself has painted a pretty clear picture that tells you the impact is not as great. Not sure why you are trying to argue against what has been shown.



If Edo Madara fights Living Madara and Edo Madara gets whooped because Living Madara is stronger. Edo Madara winning is not only nonsense but it definitely isn't properly supported by anything you've said. A gimped Rinnegan and 3-4 Mokuton jutsu don't benefit him more than Kurama does. Not now, not ever. If you want to start wanking his inferior techniques in an attempt to prove that strength doesn't dictate the course of this (yes, this, not any other battle so don't bring up any other battle) battle then you better get specific with your explanations.