Kakashi vs hokage 3

[Booker]

There is no version of Kakashi in this Manga without the power of the MS that can take on Hiruzen and win. Hiruzen mid diffs him.

With Part 2 feats absolutely. With only Part 1 feats War Arc 3T Kakashi mercs him. Unless you also want to scale his hype with his Part 1 feats, which is unquantifiable and basically means Hiruzen stomps.

 

[KidGamer65]

With Part 2 feats absolutely. With only Part 1 feats War Arc 3T Kakashi mercs him. Unless you also want to scale his hype with his Part 1 feats, which is unquantifiable and basically means Hiruzen stomps.

Naturally, but there's no reason to separate Part 1 and Part 2 Hiruzen in the first place.

 

[Booker]

Naturally, but there's no reason to separate Part 1 and Part 2 Hiruzen in the first place.

My issue is that we don't know how much Edo Form boosted Hiruzen's capabilities compared to his Part 1 self. Can he do the multiple clones with massive AOE? Giant Shuriken Clone Spam? Who knows, because Edo Form gave him a chakra pool different than when he was alive.

 

[TheEvilOne]

My issue is that we don't know how much Edo Form boosted Hiruzen's capabilities compared to his Part 1 self. Can he do the multiple clones with massive AOE? Giant Shuriken Clone Spam? Who knows, because Edo Form gave him a chakra pool different than when he was alive.

Of course he can't. He was at his limits after using three small elemental technique, two shadow clones and a shuriken technique.

 

[KidGamer65]

My issue is that we don't know how much Edo Form boosted Hiruzen's capabilities compared to his Part 1 self. Can he do the multiple clones with massive AOE? Giant Shuriken Clone Spam? Who knows, because Edo Form gave him a chakra pool different than when he was alive.

No, it's already fact that Edo Tensei doesn't change your chakra pool. It's also fact that it doesn't grant an infinite pool of chakra. Thus what Hiruzen showed as an Edo is his chakra pool while alive. The only thing is he'll actually get tired, probably unable to fight if he did what he did against Spiral Zetsu. New facts override old ones.

 

[Booker]

Of course he can't. He was at his limits after using three small elemental technique, two shadow clones and a shuriken technique.

But power creep is also a thing, so Kishimoto just could have not been able to show Hiruzen's massive AOE potential.

No, it's already fact that Edo Tensei doesn't change your chakra pool. It's also fact that it doesn't grant an infinite pool of chakra. Thus what Hiruzen showed as an Edo is his chakra pool while alive. The only thing is he'll actually get tired, probably unable to fight if he did what he did against Spiral Zetsu. New facts override old ones.

Where does that whole thing about Edos having extensive/infinite chakra come from, then? I thought it was settled that Edos have basically infinite chakra, but only to the point where they could do stuff when they were alive (so if alive Hiruzen maxes out at Dragon Flames Bombs, Edo Hiruzen can do multiple DFBs, but nothing above that).

If the whole Edos having different chakra thing has been retconned or discounted, then yeah. Which would honestly make sense since it was never consistent.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

No, it's already fact that Edo Tensei doesn't change your chakra pool. It's also fact that it doesn't grant an infinite pool of chakra. Thus what Hiruzen showed as an Edo is his chakra pool while alive. The only thing is he'll actually get tired, probably unable to fight if he did what he did against Spiral Zetsu. New facts override old ones.

it clearly did for hiruzen. Dude went from 3 jutsu tiring him out to using 6 techniques at once, 5 of which are at levels far beyond part 1.

 

[KidGamer65]

But power creep is also a thing, so Kishimoto just could have not been able to show Hiruzen's massive AOE potential.



Where does that whole thing about Edos having extensive/infinite chakra come from, then? I thought it was settled that Edos have basically infinite chakra, but only to the point where they could do stuff when they were alive (so if alive Hiruzen maxes out at Dragon Flames Bombs, Edo Hiruzen can do multiple DFBs, but nothing above that).

If the whole Edos having different chakra thing has been retconned or discounted, then yeah. Which would honestly make sense since it was never consistent.

Madara said that he has unlimited chakra and people thought that meant he had an infinite amount of chakra when he just meant that his chakra never runs out. When the Edo Hokage were maintaining the barrier that they used to trap the Juubi they could only make a limited amount of clones. Hashirama made around 5 or 6 and Tobirama could only make 2. If they really had an infinite amount then that wouldn't be an issue. So what you are saying in the bold is no different then what I just said now. The only difference is Hiruzen's max capability isn't Dragon Flame Bomb because he already did something much greater than that with a chakra pool that is no different than his living counterpart's (in terms of size)

it clearly did for hiruzen. Dude went from 3 jutsu tiring him out to using 6 techniques at once, 5 of which are at levels far beyond part 1.

Hiruzen isn't special. If it didn't increase for anyone else there's no reason it'd increase for him. All this means is that Kishimoto decided to retcon his capabilities.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Madara said that he has unlimited chakra and people thought that meant he had an infinite amount of chakra when he just meant that his chakra never runs out. When the Edo Hokage were maintaining the barrier that they used to trap the Juubi they could only make a limited amount of clones. Hashirama made around 5 or 6 and Tobirama could only make 2. If they really had an infinite amount then that wouldn't be an issue. So what you are saying in the bold is no different then what I just said now. The only difference is Hiruzen's max capability isn't Dragon Flame Bomb because he already did something much greater than that with a chakra pool that is no different than his living counterpart's (in terms of size)



Hiruzen isn't special. If it didn't increase for anyone else there's no reason it'd increase for him. All this means is that Kishimoto decided to retcon his capabilities.

so itachi can can do all the sh!t he did too? use ama/tsukuyomi and susanoo at the same damn time?

 

[KidGamer65]

so itachi can can do all the sh!t he did too? use ama/tsukuyomi and susanoo at the same damn time?

:lol Terrible example and you know why. Itachi had a sickness that doesn't affect him as an Edo. Whatever any Edo did as an Edo is something they can do alive, but with the drawbacks of using up stamina. That's a fact.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

:lol Terrible example and you know why. Itachi had a sickness that doesn't affect him as an Edo. Whatever any Edo did as an Edo is something they can do alive, but with the drawbacks of using up stamina. That's a fact.

he didn't have any recognizable sickness in part 1 and or the majority of part 2. we recognized his limits with the specialty clone that team kakashi beat.

yet as an edo he's far beyond that.

old man hiruzen with a 3 in chakra isn't doing that edo shit.

 

[KidGamer65]

he didn't have any recognizable sickness in part 1 and or the majority of part 2. we recognized his limits with the specialty clone that team kakashi beat.

yet as an edo he's far beyond that.

old man hiruzen with a 3 in chakra isn't doing that edo shit.

Doesn't matter if we could recognize it or not. He appeared for less than 5 chapters nor did he exert himself enough for us to see that he was sick. Moot point.

Facts:

-ET does NOT enhance people.
-ET does NOT grant more chakra than you had when you were alive.
-Every Edo that used a jutsu can use that same jutsu at the same strength while alive.

Thus Hiruzen can use any jutsu he used as an Edo. Fact. Not debatable. Kakashi has the same 3 in stamina yet he spammed MS without croaking during the war. :lol Don't make excuses for Hiruzen being unable to use what he showed. It's ridiculous.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Doesn't matter if we could recognize it or not. He appeared for less than 5 chapters nor did he exert himself enough for us to see that he was sick. Moot point.

he used ms 3 times in 1 day then admits he's tired.
.QUOTE]Facts:

-ET does NOT enhance people.
-ET does NOT grant more chakra than you had when you were alive.
-Every Edo that used a jutsu can use that same jutsu at the same strength while alive..[/QUOTE]i know this but i still disagree.

Thus Hiruzen can use any jutsu he used as an Edo. Fact. Not debatable. Kakashi has the same 3 in stamina yet he spammed MS without croaking during the war. :lol Don't make excuses for Hiruzen being unable to use what he showed. It's ridiculous.

kakashi 3 in stamina was only relevant up until pain arc, which makes sense since pain arc kakashi is far more limited than war arc. Db4 doesn't do stats, and its well within possibility for living people to expand their chakra pool.

Edo's as we both agree on don't gain that luxury. So to say his stamina was 'retconned' literally goes against the above rules.

i'll give him the jutsu, he has hype to back that. but the chakra lvls? no. Especially when his old age and thus limited chakra was made as a crucial point in the fight that killed him.

 

[KidGamer65]

he used ms 3 times in 1 day then admits he's tired.
i know this but i still disagree.

Lmao why? There is nothing to disagree with. These are facts.

kakashi 3 in stamina was only relevant up until pain arc, which makes sense since pain arc kakashi is far more limited than war arc. Db4 doesn't do stats, and its well within possibility for living people to expand their chakra pool.

Lmao stop it. It's not realistic for Kakashi to go from a "3" in stamina to spamming Kamui in a matter of months, most of which he did NOT spend training as we can clearly see. He didn't train during the Kage Summit Arc, and he was fighting during the entirety of the War. Pain Arc Kakashi and War Kakashi are no different in anything besides jutsu pool (one new jutsu) and mastery of the MS. Literally no different. :lol @ far more limited.

Like I said, don't make excuses for Kakashi because there is no excuse that will separate his scenario from Hiruzen's because they are the same exact thing.

Edo's as we both agree on don't gain that luxury. So to say his stamina was 'retconned' literally goes against the above rules.

That makes no sense if you know what a retcon is.

i'll give him the jutsu, he has hype to back that. but the chakra lvls? no. Especially when his old age and thus limited chakra was made as a crucial point in the fight that killed him.

It's already fact he can perform it as shown in the Manga. What happened before is irrelevant. Latest information>Outdated information. That's exactly what a retcon is.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Lmao why? There is nothing to disagree with. These are facts.



Lmao stop it. It's not realistic for Kakashi to go from a "3" in stamina to spamming Kamui in a matter of months, most of which he did NOT spend training as we can clearly see. He didn't train during the Kage Summit Arc, and he was fighting during the entirety of the War. Pain Arc Kakashi and War Kakashi are no different in anything besides jutsu pool (one new jutsu) and mastery of the MS. Literally no different. :lol @ far more limited.

Like I said, don't make excuses for Kakashi because there is no excuse that will separate his scenario from Hiruzen's because they are the same exact thing.



That makes no sense if you know what a retcon is.



It's already fact he can perform it as shown in the Manga. What happened before is irrelevant. Latest information>Outdated information. That's exactly what a retcon is.

whatever man.

 

[Eng nawashi]

All of Hiruzen's long range offensive arsenal get evaded by utilizing mayfly . This fight ends in CQC. So basically kakashi with 3T precog, first gate and 2 Raikeri kunai vs hiruzen with transformed enma who raikeri kills in any clash . Kakashi wins.

 

[Nattana]

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Believe in the Hype!

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Fourth Databook proof!!!

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Translation: Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. Ability in all Five Nature Alterations, Ability in all Hiden (clan techniques), Genjutsu, Ability in all Ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. His title of Professor is no joke, hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

5 Elements - Not even his full power???

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Since Hiruzen was revived at old age, his chakra and power should be as low as before but wait... Tobirama states that the Hokage have been revived "close to original power" this means Hiruzen was revived weaker then he was alive at old age yet he was able to produce the 5 Elements at such mastery that it was even capable of stalemating the Buddha Statue while the 5 Kage couldn't. Just imagine his Prime.

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Hiruzen knows and could perform all non KKG Hidden Leaf Jutsu which equals = The use of the Ino–Shika–Chō at will with Kage Bunshin

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Broken Ninjutsu versatility

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Hiruzen utilizing the Inuzuka Clan's ability of an enhanced sense of smell to catch the 2 Hokage in complete darkness.

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Hidden Leaf Tech

Bringer of Darkness, Great Clone Explosion
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading
Front Lotus
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough


Sarutobi Clan
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique


Izunaka Clan
Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang

Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap

Nara clan
Black Spider Lily
Shadow Gathering Technique
Shadow Imitation Shuriken Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Shadow Sewing Technique
Shadow–Neck Binding Technique

Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy

Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades

Uzumaki Clan

Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Five Elements Unseal

OP Summoning Monkey King Enma

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The Third hokage's comrade in arms, the monkey king enma's transformation jutsu Characterized by the hardness of diamond and its at-will extensibility, Kongou Nyoi-Bou is Sandaime's"weapon of choice", so to speak and with it in hand he's made it through a world of war for an extended period of time.

Also, when Enma is transformed into Diamond Shifting Staff, it is also possible that he can attack out of his own free will, his claws and fangs add an element of surprise and irregularity. Forged in the fire of battle, its at-will transformation-based attack and defense go beyond the scope of proficiency, to attain the realm of Shinobi "godhood".

-The main method of attack consists in strikes and thrusts that take advantage of its extensibility. The hardness of diamond translates into destructive power.

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Heading:
自在に変幻する堅固なる獄！！
A solid prison that changes shape at will!!


After transforming himself into an adamantium staff, Enma clones himself in staff form then boxes the enemy into a lattice.

The prison wall with the toughness of adamantium cannot possibly be broken, and the captured enemy is left with nothing but the humility of defeat.

Durability Feats - Super Kage Bunshin???

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Hiruzen has shown to have excellent durability feats at age 69 with his Kage Bunshin as one of his clones was stabbed by Hashirama with 4 Kunai in the chest yet did not disperse until Hiruzen was done with it. He was also able to hold Orochimaru's soul for an hour long despite being stabbed through the chest by the Sword of Kusangi.

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Dangerous CQC

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]Even past his Prime, Hiruzen had showed excellent Close Quarter Combat skills. Moments after sealing parts of his soul away to seal the Edo Hokage and exhausting his remaining Chakra on Kage Bunshin, he was still able to easily disarm Orochimaru from his Sword of Kusangi with great ease and catch him to prepare his sealing Jutsu. He was also able to easily break through the Shinju branches and save Naruto despite Tobirama and Minato unable to get through.

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Further Hype and Testimonials

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Orochimaru admitting that he would be killed by a 59 year old Hiruzen.

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Danzo in his dying moments admitting inferiority despite possessing Izanagi, Kotoamatsukami and Hashirama's DNA.

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Kabuto, a spy who has spied on and knows all about the Shinobi countries states that an old Hiruzen was stronger then all the 5 Kage at the time. Just imagine his Prime.

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Even with the entire SA and 5 Kage, Shikamaru states that only Hiruzen could contend with Guruguru at the time.

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Considers himself to be the strongest in his group which also included Tobirama. Confident enough to take on the entire Kinkaku and survive.

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Extra Databook Hype

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"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".

the Sandaime was the strongest.

Databook 1, Page 117

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

"Hiruzen in his Prime was able to counter every Leaf Jutsu in Existance including all MS and EMS skills." DB2 Pg 84

Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

He who even holds the affectionate name of "Professor," being well-versed in every jutsu that exists in the village of Konohagakure

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[BenjerminGaye]

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you wish the hype was real because it elevates oro residually