Pt1 neji vs pt2 hinata

[Tazzilla88]

I don't see how people just agree with something so irrelevant like portrayal. Say Kishimoto said Iruka was stronger than Itachi, yet nothing in his arsenal proved such, would you still take it as a fact that Itachi was the weaker of the two? You've got people on here that just agree with whatever Kishimoto says, even if it doesn't make sense/can be debated otherwise.

Deidara vs Sasori, Kishimoto said Deidara was the weaker of the two, yet it can be debated that Deidara can defeat Sasori etc.

Basically, portrayal doesn't mean anything in vs discussions honestly.

That's not quite the case.

The fact is that we've not seen the vast majority of the battles we know character have fought.

The problem is that you'd be using an inductive argument whilst ignore evidence that ought to be considered in your argument. For instance, if we imagine the fight between the weakened sannin didn't occur and relied only on the sannin's fights their major nemesis, one would argue that if Tsunade could scramble the nervous system she would have done so in the Gokage v Madara fight. Or if Jiraiya could create a flame large enough to fry all of Pein's summons he would have in that battle. (Orochimaru really didn't do much in the sannin battle, that he doesn't do all the time. ) However, you know contrary to those arguments because you've allowed yourself to take in more context. Thus, if some context is given it should be weighed as another piece of evidence.

The question becomes how to interpret. Rather than a complete disregard for that set of information. The key isn't sophistry but interpreting. The same way the story builds on each other so does speed feats and everything else. It's all contextual.

Kishimoto never made the claim though that Iruka was stronger than Itachi. By resorting to such an extreme comparison you used the logical fallacy reductio ad absurdum. There are however times when hype is retconned. Such as Hiruzen hype in relation to him being the God of Shinobi. But this kind of retcon made sense in the depiction of Hashirama's power being considered a fairytale people assumed that he could be no stronger than Hiruzen.

That said, that doesn't mean we abandon our senses completely either. If we clearly see a feat in the manga and a source contradicts that clear feat, then the manga takes precedence as it's the primary source of cannon. Then Databooks. Then Kishimoto. Then the Anime and at the bottom of the totem pole are Kishi approved media (Naruto Hiden) and then games (Kishi has been involved in some story lines the product therefore bears his seal of approval). These provide the framework for understanding and interpreting the Narutoverse.

 

[BLAZE]

Thanks for proving my point.

So according to u hinata's body is almost twice the size of her hands :lol
TLF is nowhere near the size of her body

Hinata managed to do 64 palms which if you read the DB entry for it, you'll see that when one does it they close the enemies chakra points. This means that even if Neji did manage to hit her once and shut down a chakra point, she can just unseal it by hitting said chakra point.

What the hell
I just said one hit from jyuuken will disable TWL
Dunno what u even mean by bold since only medics and kyuubi chakra from a different source has been able to open chakra point blocked by jyuuken

Barely preforming it doesn't take away that she's skilled enough to finally do it which again takes skill to do in the first place.

Meaning she is still nowhere near CE neji let alone SRA neji

And Neji has a lack of lion fist which takes extreme skill. Bet you're not gonna start saying Neji isn't skilled because of it.

maybe becoz if u actually read the manga u will realise that its a main branch jutsu that isn't taught to branch family members

All of the main branch techniques he learned was becoz of his own skills unlike hinata who was taught

 

[Hakke]

What the hell
I just said one hit from jyuuken will disable TWL
Dunno what u even mean by bold since only medics kyuubi chakra from a different source has been able to open chakra point blocked by jyuuken

actually the Jyuken can block or increase the chakra flow. meaning that Jyuken can unblock a blocked chakra point

and @bold , nope it can not. and bringing something that happened off panel as an evidence is null

OT : Neji mid-high dif

 

[Tazzilla88]

actually the Jyuken can block or increase the chakra flow. meaning that Jyuken can unblock a blocked chakra point

and @bold , nope it can not. and bringing something that happened off panel as an evidence is null

OT : Neji mid-high dif

Yes, it obviously can. Just because it happened off panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. Madara defeated the Gokage off panel... we know it happened. That's a sloppy argument.

 

[BLAZE]

actually the Jyuken can block or increase the chakra flow. meaning that Jyuken can unblock a blocked chakra point

That's why hinata unblocked it huh
And my point was that one hit will disable TLF since even little error in chakra control will deactivate it

and @bold , nope it can not. and bringing something that happened off panel as an evidence is null

Damn moans about me using something that happened offpanel
Goes on to talk about how hyuga can unblock chakra point which actually did not happen in manga

Lemme guess since susanoo it tanked kirin offpanel thus it cannot be used but rotation or raiton armour should tank it becoz it never happened

 

[Hakke]

That's why hinata unblocked it huh

Hinata's Jyuken was disabled genius :lol

And my point was that one hit will disable TLF since even little error in chakra control will deactivate it

Agreed , but I wonder why the same thing can't be said to CES

but lets say that one chakra point in her arms was blocked to disable her Jyuken , she can unblock it with her other hand

Damn moans about me using something that happened offpanel
Goes on to talk about how hyuga can unblock chakra point which actually did not happen in manga

Lemme guess since susanoo it tanked kirin offpanel thus it cannot be used but rotation or raiton armour should tank it becoz it never happened

it was stated that Jyuken can block or increase the chakra flow , guess what does that mean

Yes, it obviously can. Just because it happened off panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. Madara defeated the Gokage off panel... we know it happened. That's a sloppy argument.

you missed my point. Jyuken doesn't block chakra points forever, it will reopen due time. and nothing suggest that the medic team unblocked Hinata's chakra points. and there is the fact that her heart was still damaged after months from her fight with Neji

 

[BLAZE]

Hinata's Jyuken was disabled genius :lol

In one hand yeah

but lets say that one chakra point in her arms was blocked to disable her Jyuken , she can unblock it with her other hand

Now go read your first part of this post genius

Agreed , but I wonder why the same thing can't be said to CES

Maybe if u can use ur eyes you will see it is explicitly said TWL will disable in little affect on chakra control which is not true about ces

it was stated that Jyuken can increase the chakra flow , guess what does that mean

That it increases chakra flow.

you missed my point. Jyuken doesn't block chakra points forever, it will reopen due time. and nothing suggest that the medic team unblocked Hinata's chakra points. and there is the fact that her heart was still damaged after months from her fight with Neji

Hinata was in critical situation.she ain't getting healed without her chakra points being opened
None of hyuga came to save her ass and open her chakra point not even hiashi but medics did take her to save her which they actually did

And no you were pretty clear you said something that happened offpanel cannot be used.which is bs

 

[HyuugaHeir]

Neji beats Hinata 1/5, I guess. He's superior obviously.

Neji once again stomps. When all the other konoha 12 were easily taking out many many Jubbi clones at a time it took Hinata great effort to even take out single one. You really think she can touch Neji. Yeah right.

I'm not invalidating your point. Hinata has always been characterised as meek and gentle and reserved. The instances you pertain accurately reflect that, not to further cement Hinata as a weak character but someone who surpasses her own weaknesses. Then some would argue why did the other K11 perform better and seemingly untainted with hints of having difficulty.

Then think about what their characters' development revolved around on?
Was Kiba constantly shown to deem himself weaker than everyone? Did Shino think of himself the same?
What was Ino-SHika-Cho's theme?

The point is you pointing out K11 easily doing the job whereas Hinata having difficulty to take out a single juubi clone to emphasize her shortcomings is irrelevant. Why? Because you missed the context of that whole chapter. Other than that, I agree with you that she loses to Neji.

 

[Antdog]

So according to u hinata's body is almost twice the size of her hands :lol
TLF is nowhere near the size of her body

If you can't see it despite looking at it then there's nothing I can say.

What the hell
I just said one hit from jyuuken will disable TWL
Dunno what u even mean by bold since only medics and kyuubi chakra from a different source has been able to open chakra point blocked by jyuuken

Jyuuken can either seal or increase the flow of chakra in a chakra point. Therefore if chakra via Jyuuken is used to close a chakra point then chakra via Jyuuken can unseal a chakra point.

Meaning she is still nowhere near CE neji let alone SRA neji

The fact that she finally was able to do it along with lion fist puts her around his lvl

maybe becoz if u actually read the manga u will realise that its a main branch jutsu that isn't taught to branch family members

Did 64 palms or rotation being main branch jutsu stop him from being skilled enough to do those? Nope so that's not a good enough excuse to use for him not knowing the lion fist. But once again you won't go around saying he's not skilled.

All of the main branch techniques he learned was becoz of his own skills unlike hinata who was taught

Does Hinata being taught them magically take out the skill it takes to actually do the jutsu? No.

 

[Made in Heaven]

Enough with this argument that Hinata is not good with the 64 Palms. Do people not understand context here? She stumbles, then manages to complete it successfully, and then goes on to say that she will always move forward, even if it's one step at a time. Like, if it isn't obvious enough that there's a clear implication that she mastered the technique during the exact same chapter, what with the whole "moving forward" part, then there's nothing that can be done. There's a clear focus on her overcoming her limits in regards to the technique, moving from 32 to 64, so to use her blunder, which she VERY clearly overcame, as evidence for her incompetence in 64 palms is nothing short of misconstructing facts.

medics has been able to open chakra point blocked by jyuuken

No, never once was this ever shown or said. The best those medics did was heal her injuries, Chakra points open on their with time.

maybe becoz if u actually read the manga u will realise that its a main branch jutsu that isn't taught to branch family members

Didn't stop Neji with the 64 Palms or Rotation the first time around. Face it, its just something Neji was unable to learn :lol

All of the main branch techniques he learned was becoz of his own skills unlike hinata who was taught

So let me get this straight, being TAUGHT something means you don't have any skill? Do you even understand how absurd what you just said is? Just because someone is taught something doesn't mean they don't need skill to use it, what a bizarre statement.

 

[BLAZE]

@Thedudewhowantstobelady quoting me

is it hard to understand you are on my ignore list.I am not interested your garbages like hinata has rikudou tier reflexes or god tier reflexes via rikudou chakra.
Those kind of crappy fanfics are not to be taken seriously and should be put in dustbin

If you can't see it despite looking at it then there's nothing I can say.

I can clearly see its almost half the size of her body :lol width is almost same as her body while length is same as her hand or half of her whole body

Spoiler

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Jyuuken can either seal or increase the flow of chakra in a chakra point. Therefore if chakra via Jyuuken is used to close a chakra point then chakra via Jyuuken can unseal a chakra point.

really according to you hinata must be dumb to not unseal it during chunin exam :lol

The fact that she finally was able to do it along with lion fist puts her around his lvl

Neji's speed is superior;his reflex is superior;his tajiutsu and stamina is superior.Had enough endurance to fight after getting stabbed by multiple daggers and 2 giant arrows :lol

but but Hinata has shown oh a featless twin lion fist damn :lol

Did 64 palms or rotation being main branch jutsu stop him from being skilled enough to do those? Nope so that's not a good enough excuse to use for him not knowing the lion fist. But once again you won't go around saying he's not skilled.

thats the reason he was called prodigy :lol Hinata despite being taught still doesn't have rotation[inb4 hinata was never taught it despite being from main branch]
Neji was never taught TWL thus he doesn't have it

databook explicitly states learning rotation shows his prodigious talent

Kekkei Genkai, Taijutsu, Defensive, Close-range

User: Hyuuga Neji

An application of Gentle Fist, the other Absolute Defense!!

A taijutsu where one releases a large amount of chakra from their body’s chakra openings to catch the blows from an enemy’s attacks, while making one’s body spin to repel them.

A secret transmitted by oral tradition within the Hyuuga’s Main House, though Hyuuga Neji came up with it own his own, despite him being from the Branch House. It stands in the same league as Gaara’s Sand as an ultimate protection, and was even called the other Absolute Defense. This is the high grade taijutsu that made Neji’s prodigious talent known during the Chuunin exam.

The Byakugan’s nigh-360° field of vision perceives the rear attack, and Kaiten intercepts it

same is true for 64 palms

Kekkei Genkai, Taijutsu, Offensive, Close-range

User: Hyuuga Neji

This is originally a taijutsu that is passed down only in the Hyuuga Main House!! However, being a branch house member, Neji uses his own intuition and natural talents to master the secrets of this Taijutsu!!

Using the Byakugan’s 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a Divination Hexagram Formation. Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation. The attacks are aimed at 64 of the opponent’s chakra points, thus closing these chakra points and stopping the chakra flow of the opponent. The victim will not even have the strength to stand up. Therefore this is a deadly taijutsu that is suitable to be pass down within the Hyuuga line.

Does Hinata being taught them magically take out the skill it takes to actually do the jutsu? No.

Neji learning something that he wasn't taught shows his skills and prodigious talent on other hand hinata learning something that was taught to her and requires high level chakra control shows she has high level chakra control which is non factor since part 1 genin neji had Jounin level chakra control [

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Edit:

and yes we know the gap between their 64 palms so yes neji is far more skilled.Hinta's DB also clearly states it was 64 palms for which she needed to overcome her own limits not TLF

Caption for panel where Hinata uses 64 palms: In order to protect Naruto, she overcame her own limits to employ “8 trigrams 64 palms.” She gathered the power of the byakugan and overpowered the Juubi’s clone.

along with the fact her talent bloomed after she pulled 64 palms not TLF

Caption for panel where Hinata thinks of Neji: Neji was a prominent juuken user of the Hyuuga. His teaching let Hinata’s talent bloom after his death.

 

[Made in Heaven]

@Thedudewhowantstobelady quoting me

is it hard to understand you are on my ignore list.I am not interested your garbages like hinata has rikudou tier reflexes or god tier reflexes via rikudou chakra.
Those kind of crappy fanfics are not to be taken seriously and should be put in dustbin

Don't really care. If you're going to say things that are blatantly wrong, I'm going to reply to them. And not once have I ever said Hinata has Rikudo level reflexes, so try not to put words in my mouth. And really, this is so rich coming from someone who wants to claim that Medical Ninjutsu can counter Gentle Fist. I love, absolutely love, how it's okay for you to make assumptions, saying things like "Because Medics took Hinata away to heal her wounds, this means they can undo Gentle Fist closing Chakra Points" even though Medical Ninjutsu doesn't need to open the point in order to heal organs. Meanwhile, when I claim that the Rikudo Chakra Hinata gained from Hamura would have increased her speed and power due to the both the quantity and quality of the Chakra, and based on evidence form the manga that more Chakrs means more speed and that Rikudo Chakra is innately more potent than even Bijuu Chakra, I'm the one making stuff up? It's incredible how low your self-awareness is.

Had enough endurance to fight after getting stabbed by multiple daggers and 2 giant arrows :lol

Hinata took a direct blow to the heart from Gentle Fist and was still fighting, multiple hits form Neji at that, and the Gentle Fist is far more lethal than some daggers, her injuries from Neji were so bad that even a month after with the aid of medics, she was still in pain. Obviously the two can't be compared, but it's still a great endurance feat, though not necessarily a durability feat, since the two aren't the same.

Neji was never taught TWL thus he doesn't have it

So why didn't he learn it on his own like with Rotation? Was it too hard for him?

Neji learning something that he wasn't taught shows his skills and prodigious talent on other hand hinata learning something that was taught to her and requires high level chakra control shows she has high level chakra control which is non factor since part 1 genin neji had Jounin level chakra control

So Hinata's CC is better than Neji's? I mean, TLF is said to require perfect CC, while Neji's is said to be only higher than a Jonin's.

Not to mention Hinata is said to be a master of the Gentle Fist, and its been said that mastery over the Gentle Fist is needed for Rotation, so it is possible she knows it now, though we need to wait and see first.

 

[Hakke]

In one hand yeah

if you are asking "why didn't Hinata unblock her chakra point ?", then just watch the hole thing again

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you can see clearly that when Neji blocked her chakra points in her arm, he was in a close range with her, the reason she directly tried to attack him with her other hand. because if she tried to unseal her chakra points she would leave an opening for Neji to strike her.

Maybe if u can use ur eyes you will see it is explicitly said TWL will disable in little affect on chakra control which is not true about ces

but it still needs a precise chakra control to use. something that the CES user can't pull off if some of his chakra points are blocked

That it increases chakra flow.

but have you asked yourself how ? simply the chakra points are working like gates, the gentle fist user inject chakra from his fingertips to either close it (which would stop the chakra flow) or to open it further (which would increase the chakra flow),

so if they can close it, and they can open it further. why can't they reopen a closed chakra point ?

Hinata was in critical situation.she ain't getting healed without her chakra points being opened
None of hyuga came to save her ass and open her chakra point not even hiashi but medics did take her to save her which they actually did

@bold , nothing suggest that. because it wasn't stated that the Mystical Palm or the medical heal through the chakra pathway system, but it was stated that Jyuken damage through the chakra pathway system.

and Strike is irrelevant because she was in the chunin exams, and rest of things have happened off panel

And no you were pretty clear you said something that happened offpanel cannot be used.which is bs

I agree that's my bad

 

[HyuugaHeir]

Spoiler

if you are asking "why didn't Hinata unblock her chakra point ?", then just watch the hole thing again

Spoiler

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you can see clearly that when Neji blocked her chakra points in her arm, he was in a close range with her, the reason she directly tried to attack him with her other hand. because if she tried to unseal her chakra points she would leave an opening for Neji to strike her.



but it still needs a precise chakra control to use. something that the CES user can't pull off if some of his chakra points are blocked



but have you asked yourself how ? simply the chakra points are working like gates, the gentle fist user inject chakra from his fingertips to either close it (which would stop the chakra flow) or to open it further (which would increase the chakra flow),

so if they can close it, and they can open it further. why can't they reopen a closed chakra point ?



@bold , nothing suggest that. because it wasn't stated that the Mystical Palm or the medical heal through the chakra pathway system, but it was stated that Jyuken damage through the chakra pathway system.

and Strike is irrelevant because she was in the chunin exams, and rest of things have happened off panel

I agree that's my bad[/QUOTE]

Reading this post made me reaffirmed my goal. I've always been fond of Hinata and the Hyuuga and also I got a thing for writing fiction. I'm working on one and I swear I'll do my fn best to tie in some sort of Jyuuken arts inspired by Hinata and Neji to one of my heroines. This I'll do for those who need to see.

 

[BLAZE]

if you are asking "why didn't Hinata unblock her chakra point ?", then just watch the hole thing again

Spoiler

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you can see clearly that when Neji blocked her chakra points in her arm, he was in a close range with her, the reason she directly tried to attack him with her other hand. because if she tried to unseal her chakra points she would leave an opening for Neji to strike her.

Well actually i did and its nothing becoz of what you are suggesting [

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neji blocked all of her points offpanel.so i was wrong there

but it still needs a precise chakra control to use. something that the CES user can't pull off if some of his chakra points are blocked

so it doesn't gets poofed away from little mistake since chakra is being used to increase her natural strength not a external lion of chakra
you can clearly see despite being struck with TSB rob Sakura was still able use her strength;Despite being stabbed by two susanoo blade tsunade was able to do the same but after being hit by a weaker version of Shinra Tensei hinata's TLF vanished

but have you asked yourself how ? simply the chakra points are working like gates, the gentle fist user inject chakra from his fingertips to either close it (which would stop the chakra flow) or to open it further (which would increase the chakra flow),

if you can open chakra points just via chakra flow no reason to believe why Byakugou;Curse mode or large amount of chakra via any medic cannot open it :lol

so if they can close it, and they can open it further. why can't they reopen a closed chakra point ?

so if sasuke can stab someone does that mean he can heal him too

@bold , nothing suggest that. because it wasn't stated that the Mystical Palm or the medical heal through the chakra pathway system, but it was stated that Jyuken damage through the chakra pathway system.

Ninjutsu, A-rank, Supplementary, Close range

User: Yakushi Kabuto

The restorative medical technique that heals the body on the inside and the outside with the power of chakra.

An awe-inspiring medical technique where one sends chakra from the hand into a wounded area, causing that spot to restore itself by rapidly increasing its recovering ability. Since the chakra needs to be controlled in order to match the extent of the ailment, few are those who can use it, even among ninja medics. In addition, overloading an opponent with chakra to disrupt the normal functioning of their internal circulatory system, having them fall into a comatose state is also a possibility.

Effective on external wounds, of course, but on internal ailments as well.

and Strike is irrelevant because she was in the chunin exams, and rest of things have happened off panel

Which literally does not matter since you can't discredit it was medics who saved her not hyuga's nor even her own father

 

[Made in Heaven]

so it doesn't gets poofed away from little mistake since chakra is being used to increase her natural strength not a external lion of chakra
you can clearly see despite being struck with TSB rob Sakura was still able use her strength;Despite being stabbed by two susanoo blade tsunade was able to do the same but after being hit by a weaker version of Shinra Tensei hinata's TLF vanished

CES still needs high chakra control, so disturbance to the Chakra flow will render it moot.

How do those correlate? How does getting hurt relate to getting one's Chakra point closed?

if you can open chakra points just via chakra flow no reason to believe why Byakugou;Curse mode or large amount of chakra via any medic cannot open it :lol

You do realize Gentle Fist already showcased the ability to close of the Curse Seal? So Yin Seal falls in line with that as well.

so if sasuke can stab someone does that mean he can heal him too

What a poor comparison.

Ninjutsu, A-rank, Supplementary, Close range

User: Yakushi Kabuto

The restorative medical technique that heals the body on the inside and the outside with the power of chakra.

An awe-inspiring medical technique where one sends chakra from the hand into a wounded area, causing that spot to restore itself by rapidly increasing its recovering ability. Since the chakra needs to be controlled in order to match the extent of the ailment, few are those who can use it, even among ninja medics. In addition, overloading an opponent with chakra to disrupt the normal functioning of their internal circulatory system, having them fall into a comatose state is also a possibility.

Effective on external wounds, of course, but on internal ailments as well.

Is there any reason to trust this translation? :lol Besides, even if a Medic could open point like this, they can only do it to allies and not themselves, since one point closing means no Mystic Palm tech.

Which literally does not matter since you can't discredit it was medics who saved her not hyuga's nor even her own father

Because they weren't there? XD

 

[Tazzilla88]

CES still needs high chakra control, so disturbance to the Chakra flow will render it moot.

Is there any reason to trust this translation? :lol Besides, even if a Medic could open point like this, they can only do it to allies and not themselves, since one point closing means no Mystic Palm tech.

So these quotes are only relevant if we're discussing Sakura or Tsunade. But given that both can activate their seals without handseals they both should be able to reopen closed chakra points with a surge of fresh chakra.

Furthermore, is there a reason to distrust the translation besides ignoring new context? If you can provide an alternative translation I'm sure all would be keen to dissect it. And as you're making this argument about how mystical palm technique could only be used on others, but that point is moot because Sozo Sasei sends chakra each individual cell to stimulate proteins. It is far more intensive than Mystical Palm Technique and therefore should be flooding not just the chakra network but each individual cell in the body with chakra.

 

[BLAZE]

Lel someone doesn't know diff btn high and precise

one jutsu says it fails in slightest mistake in cc other one used to enhance natural strength and been shown being used when user is stabbed by TSB rod or swords

 

[Made in Heaven]

So these quotes are only relevant if we're discussing Sakura or Tsunade. But given that both can activate their seals without handseals they both should be able to reopen closed chakra points with a surge of fresh chakra.

And as you're making this argument about how mystical palm technique could only be used on others, but that point is moot because Sozo Sasei sends chakra each individual cell to stimulate proteins. It is far more intensive than Mystical Palm Technique and therefore should be flooding not just the chakra network but each individual cell in the body with chakra.

No, Neji already showed that the Gentle Fist closes of Chakra Seals with the Gentle Fist, and the Curse Seal also doesn't require hand seals.

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Naruto's case is not the same as the Yin Seal or the Curse Seal.

Furthermore, is there a reason to distrust the translation besides ignoring new context?

We've seen how much of a massive difference fan and official translations can have, so pulling a fan translation from some random site isn't something I'm going to accept.

In the end, closed Chakra Points aren't being opened by Medical Ninjutsu or Yin Seal, as the former needs chakra, which wouldn't be available to the person who has their Chakra points closed, and the latter, as we see with the Curse Seal, can be rendered useless with just one Chakra Point being closed.

Lel someone doesn't know diff btn high and precise

They're literally the same thing. How is "high levels of Chakra Control" any different than "precise Chakra Control"?

 

[Marin]

Feat wise, Neji won against older and more experienced opponets (remember Kidomaru?). Hinata on the other hand, I don't remember a single victory from her. She wasn't in many fights but still, no impressive feats. My money is on Neji until someone proves me wrong.