[Discussion] Could God ever forgive Satan?

[chopstickchakra]

Take away all life and what does God have?

What ever he would choose to create after. Even without us there'd still be the angels he made.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Worship is one way to acknowledge that something exists, doesnt this strike a resemblance to something?

This doesn't detract from my point at all. If God wants worship as the means of the acknowledgement of his existence, he still needs external intelligent life to give him this acknowledgement.

Worship could have just been the main form of the test he chose. Submitting your free will is very humble, imo.

Being worshiped seems arrogant because dictators, tyrants, narcissists, etc, crave worship, but perhaps, wanting to be worshiped is so wrong simply because it is what God set for us to do and only the evil would crave to replicate it? It doesn't speak on God's part, imo.

Also, from my understanding is, if God can grant eternal happiness to humans, you'd think he can do the same to himself.

Uhh how does any of this change what I said, really? Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I'm saying that God only values intelligent life that devotes themselves to him because that's the purpose he created life for. It might because it's late and I'm tired, but I don't see how this contradicts that,

What ever he would choose to create after. Even without us there'd still be the angels he made.

Uh you realize angels count as life too, right? God intends to murder all the fallen angels, aka the ones that turned away from him, further supporting that God does not value intelligent that does not devote themselves to him.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

This doesn't detract from my point at all. If God wants worship as the means of the acknowledgement of his existence, he still needs external intelligent life to give him this acknowledgement.



Uhh how does any of this change what I said, really? Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I'm saying that God only values intelligent life that devotes themselves to him because that's the purpose he created life for. It might because it's late and I'm tired, but I don't see how this contradicts that,



Uh you realize angels count as life too, right? God intends to murder all the fallen angels, aka the ones that turned away from him, further supporting that God does not value intelligent that does not devote themselves to him.

Being worshiped doesn't mean something to him, he just set a humble nature as the line of good and evil.

 

[Made in Heaven]

If you're asking "What if Satan decided to repent right now?", well, simply put, he can't. He's already been damned to hell, which was said straight to his face, he just has an extended life.

Not to mention he himself isnt the kind of person (or demon I guess) to do that.

This doesn't detract from my point at all. If God wants worship as the means of the acknowledgement of his existence, he still needs external intelligent life to give him this acknowledgement.

Since when did God want acknowledgement?

DOES he? Because what's so good about a vastly empty universe? If God has no one to witness his might, what good is it? If God doesn't need us, why does he crave our worship so badly?

What the hell does "What good is it" even mean? The power is still there.

No religion even claims God craves worship, not one. Stop making stuff up.

 

[chopstickchakra]

This doesn't detract from my point at all. If God wants worship as the means of the acknowledgement of his existence, he still needs external intelligent life to give him this acknowledgement.



Uhh how does any of this change what I said, really? Maybe I'm not understanding you, but I'm saying that God only values intelligent life that devotes themselves to him because that's the purpose he created life for. It might because it's late and I'm tired, but I don't see how this contradicts that,



Uh you realize angels count as life too, right? God intends to murder all the fallen angels, aka the ones that turned away from him, further supporting that God does not value intelligent that does not devote themselves to him.

Life in what sense they don't age or die by "natural" means as they don't exist on our natural plane also the ones turned away implies that the ones who don't will still be there so that doesn't refute what I said. That aside if we were wiped off today and not taken anywhere afterwards God could just do it again. I think you're over valuing our significance in this. You asked what would God be without us, the same thing he was before he made us.

 

[Nobel]

If God wants worship as the means of the acknowledgement of his existence, he still needs external intelligent life to give him this acknowledgement.

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It's quite seemingly a wasted effort considering that he is outside the understandable conception/space-time continuum. Does this still not strike a resemblance to a big something?

 

[Punk Hazard]

Being worshiped doesn't mean something to him, he just set a humble nature as the line of good and evil.

If that was the case, then good people who aren't Christians/worshippers wouldn't be damned, but they are.

Since when did God want acknowledgement?

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This is for both of you. In those scriptures, he asserts in his Word that he wants worship, and that he wants worship only for himself. Examples that stand out:

John 4:21-24New International Version (NIV)

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Deuteronomy 29:18New International Version (NIV)

18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

There's also this:

Acts 12:23New International Version (NIV)

23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Life in what sense they don't age or die by "natural" means as they don't exist on our natural plane also the ones turned away implies that the ones who don't will still be there so that doesn't refute what I said. That aside if we were wiped off today and not taken anywhere afterwards God could just do it again. I think you're over valuing our significance in this. You asked what would God be without us, the same thing he was before he made us.

Oh Jesus Christ almighty, of course angels aren't the ****ing same as humans. They're still sentient beings who experience God and can die, since God is gonna kill Satan, an angel. That's besides the point and you know it.

The fact is, God needs external, sentient beings to acknowledge him. We know this because he:

1. Has decrees in his word to worship and praise him

2. Has killed those who don't praise him and intends to do it again

3. Outright neglects those who do not worship him

If God has no other sentient beings to acknowledge his existence, he doesn't get the praise and worship that he EXPLICITLY wants. Without other sentient beings, God remains all alone with no worship, something he EXPLICITLY does NOT want.

If God didn't care for worship, he wouldn't have decrees of it countless times in every book of the Bible that demand sole worship for himself.

 

[jtolliver87]

there is a big part of this argument thats missing....the fact that the Bible has been heavily edited by humans

 

[Punk Hazard]

there is a big part of this argument thats missing....the fact that the Bible has been heavily edited by humans

By this logic, we have no true basis of what God is anyways and it's all pointless anyways.

 

[Made in Heaven]

If that was the case, then good people who aren't Christians/worshippers wouldn't be damned, but they are

Good is something God solely decides, not you are me. So saying "Good people who aren't worshipers" makes no sense if God requires people to worship him to qualify as being Good, no matter how many puppies they adopt.

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This is for both of you. In those scriptures, he asserts in his Word that he wants worship, and that he wants worship only for himself. Examples that stand out:

John 4:21-24New International Version (NIV)

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Deuteronomy 29:18New International Version (NIV)

18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

There's also this:

Acts 12:23New International Version (NIV)

23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.

God wanting worship doesn't mean he wants people to acknowledge him. He doesn't need anyone's acknowledgement. Worship is something good for people themselves.

 

[jtolliver87]

By this logic, we have no true basis of what God is anyways and it's all pointless anyways.

Not true once youve read more than 1 version you get to see what stays and what doesnt plus you know..the hundreds of years between the versions like i said earlier book of Enoch and you should read Jubilees also

 

[Punk Hazard]

Good is something God solely decides, not you are me. So saying "Good people who aren't worshipers" makes no sense if God requires people to worship him to qualify as being Good, no matter how many puppies they adopt.

Thanks for reinforcing my point? lmao

God wanting worship doesn't mean he wants people to acknowledge him.

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So God wants people to worship him, a form of acknowledgement, but he doesn't want acknowledgement?

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He doesn't need anyone's acknowledgement. Worship is something good for people themselves.

Good because if you don't, he kills you lmao

Not true once youve read more than 1 version you get to see what stays and what doesnt

lmao what? Dude, it's ALL edited by humans. Picking and choosing what edited part is valid and what edited part isn't is just MIGHTY convenient.

 

[jtolliver87]

Enoch and Jubilees arent edited which is why they arent in any traditional bible and if you can find one show me....ill wait...but i wont wait to long because ill die before you find it...

 

[jtolliver87]

what do you mean picking and choosing which edited part is valid...WHy do you edit something?...2 reasons either its wrong or 2. yo dont want people reading it..enoch is new to this Gen part of the dead sea scrolls..the more you talk the more you show me you know nothing and you're just rambling

 

[chopstickchakra]

Oh Jesus Christ almighty, of course angels aren't the ****ing same as humans. They're still sentient beings who experience God and can die, since God is gonna kill Satan, an angel. That's besides the point and you know it.

The fact is, God needs external, sentient beings to acknowledge him. We know this because he:

1. Has decrees in his word to worship and praise him

2. Has killed those who don't praise him and intends to do it again

3. Outright neglects those who do not worship him

If God has no other sentient beings to acknowledge his existence, he doesn't get the praise and worship that he EXPLICITLY wants. Without other sentient beings, God remains all alone with no worship, something he EXPLICITLY does NOT want.

If God didn't care for worship, he wouldn't have decrees of it countless times in every book of the Bible that demand sole worship for himself.

I'm not talking about worship that's an argument your having with other people, all those decrees are from the minds of men I don't believe any humans received a message from God about informing others what God wants from them, if he can reach out to one and tell them why couldn't he reach out to all being all powerful? Giving a creation free will then punishing it for exhibiting that free will is an oxymoron.

You guys were talking about the apocalypse and God wiping life and you said what would God be without us, well even after he'd wipe us what would stop him from creating a new sentient life form and restarting the experiment? God existed before us why would losing us be consequential to him? If he's all powerful how could we say for certainty there's not other life he's made? We know he made a previous life, why would we assume he stopped with us?

 

[jtolliver87]

simple question..Riker who is Methuselah?

 

[Punk Hazard]

Enoch and Jubilees arent edited which is why they arent in any traditional bible and if you can find one show me....ill wait...but i wont wait to long because ill die before you find it...

This doesn't detract from my point at all...

There are texts that aren't considered canon to the Bible like these books and the Dead Sea Scrolls, but what sense would it made to edit these when they're rejected either way? Religious texts are edited as they are translated and "better" translations are found. It'd make no sense to do so as much for texts that are not used for actual worship.

It doesn't detract that "it was edited by humans" isn't a good enough argument because EVERY text is edited when it's translated, even if some like Jubilee, Enoch, and the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't edited as much due to dismissal.

 

[jtolliver87]

This doesn't detract from my point at all...

There are texts that aren't considered canon to the Bible like these books and the Dead Sea Scrolls, but what sense would it made to edit these when they're rejected either way? Religious texts are edited as they are translated and "better" translations are found. It'd make no sense to do so as much for texts that are not used for actual worship.

It doesn't detract that "it was edited by humans" isn't a good enough argument because EVERY text is edited when it's translated, even if some like Jubilee, Enoch, and the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't edited as much due to dismissal.

Sounds like shit people told you not something you read

 

[Punk Hazard]

I'm not talking about worship that's an argument your having with other people, all those decrees are from the minds of men I don't believe any humans received a message from God about informing others what God wants from them, if he can reach out to one and tell them why couldn't he reach out to all being all powerful? Giving a creation free will then punishing it for exhibiting that free will is an oxymoron.

I agree with all of this, since I'm an atheist, but I'm talking in the context that God is real and the Bible is indeed his word. In which case, it's not men giving those decrees, but God using his active force to write the Bible through men, who write not what their minds create, but what God has put into their minds.

You guys were talking about the apocalypse and God wiping life and you said what would God be without us, well even after he'd wipe us what would stop him from creating a new sentient life form and restarting the experiment?

How did you miss the point THIS hard? "Us" means sentient life. I deadass said "What's God without life" multiple times. God needs SENTIENT LIFE to worship him. Saying "God doesn't need us because he can just create new life" is like me saying "You need to eat this food for nutrition" and you saying "No I don't because I can get other food." Yes, this technically correct, God doesn't need US as in we who currently exist because he can just make more sentient beings. However, "us" in the context that I used it in does not mean "us" as in we who currently exist, but as in sentient life IN GENERAL as a CONCEPT. You just took "Us" far too literally.

simple question..Riker who is Methuselah?

Because me not knowing who every individual in every religious text, canon or non-canon, means I know nothing period, right?