[Discussion] Could God ever forgive Satan?

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Can an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that it cannot lift it?

• If yes: the being's power is limited, because it cannot lift the stone.
• If no: the being's power is limited, because it cannot create the stone.
• Either way, the allegedly omnipotent being has proven not to be omnipotent due to the logical contradiction present in both possible answers.

The stone paradox can be substituted with similar examples. E.g. Could an omnipotent being create another being more powerful than itself? Could an omnipotent being destroy itself? Could he create a wall he cannot climb? Could he beat himself at arm-wrestling? And so on. The situation crops up numerous times in different wordings but all mean the same thing.
Some variations gives other useful consequences:
Can God create a cryptography/key exchange system so secure that he himself cannot crack/bypass?

• If no: He does not have the ability to authenticate any of his revelations, and therefore he lacks omnipotence, and cannot
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  .
• If yes: He does not have the ability to bypass encryptions therefore he lacks omnipotence and
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  .

I wasn't really getting into a debate of God's existence, just clarifying why the logic of that quote was a bit off. As for the God paradox, I'm familiar with it. There are many good philosophical approaches to it. For me though, it's strange to expect an answer to an incoherent question, and I'm sure the logic would be the same for God, assuming he couldn't answer an incoherent question in the first place. The reason for that is I nor is any human omniscient, and you're looking for an answer from God by asking me. Another member, Lagrim, I believe once (or maybe it was Reddit, I don't know) provided a decent answer, but I forget, anyways. This whole debate can go on forever so I'll concede here.

 

[Punk Hazard]

How is that even a coherent decision though, did the devil have autism? It's like the small percentage of humans who say I don't identify as human, I identify as a squirrel, lol.

Well, it's not that Satan denied his status as an angel. He challenged God's right to rule(can't remember the exact reason, I think it was simply hubris in most incarnations), so God and him set up a challenge. Satan would have dominion over Earth so God could use him as an example of how no one but him is capable of ruling.

1. Free will was included in the package. Even more so with his angels, and the most prominent lucifer.

2. "Let's make mankind in our image". And he/it is also everything in many shapes or forms.

Are you implying that free will cannot exist without the capacity for sin?

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Well, it's not that Satan denied his status as an angel. He challenged God's right to rule(can't remember the exact reason, I think it was simply hubris in most incarnations), so God and him set up a challenge. Satan would have dominion over Earth so God could use him as an example of how no one but him is capable of ruling.

1. But that's like challenging gravity with nothing but your cliff and a body, lmao.

2. How can Satan rule if God keeps meddling with prophets, judgment day, telling humans not to follow him, etc. Seems like God's cheating, lol.

Just kidding though, I don't wanna go to hell xD

 

[Punk Hazard]

1. But that's like challenging gravity with nothing but your cliff and a body, lmao.

2. How can Satan rule if God keeps meddling with prophets, judgment day, telling humans not to follow him, etc. Seems like God's cheating, lol.

Just kidding though, I don't wanna go to hell xD

No, God is cheating tbvh. The Bible mentions that Satan knows God is one day going to destroy him, so Satan takes his anger out on the world by polluting and corrupting it with evil. Off the get-go, God twisted the circumstances and Satan stupidly fell for it, and God is gonna stupidly use it as proof. It's like if you say "I can take better care of your fine China than you can," so I say "Okay, here, take it for a week and let's see if you can, but I'm also gonna **** your wife at the end of that week" and you smash it in anger to get back at me. The entire thing is just stupid.

 

[Inmate]

1. God killed millions of people. Satan killed 6. With God's permission

2. What Satan did to Adam and Eve didn't even condemn them to death. He just gave them knowledge, and God implanted sin and mortality and fragility into them.

3. God had the option of not creating sin in the first place, ensuring that the absolute maximum amount of humans would prosper and there'd be no suffering. And don't give me any bullshit about how we wouldn't understand happiness and prosperity without suffering. God was able to implant wisdom in Solomon. He implanted free will in all humans, and the capacity to sin. He created intelligence in humans, so he definitely could have implanted that kind of wisdom and knowledge inherently without actually needing us to suffer to it.

Either God's retarded or evil.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph. There's so much wrong in this comment I almost went blind.

First: where did you even get the idea that Satan only killed 6 people? I'll also ask you why he was permitted. There was, of course, a reason behind that. But still. Why would God give Satan such an order? I don't remember him being on speaking terms with Satan. Ever. The only time Satan remotely spoke to God (holy spirit) was when he tempted him in the mountains and all.

Secondly: God didn't anticipate that Satan would fall out of grace. He could have seen it. Omniscient and all. Considered that. But as I have vividly pointed out, God in vivid depiction is told as a non-living being that has enough respect and honor to give freedom to those whom want it. Actually it is so freely given, you could do practically anything you want without him being in your business. Except when it really calls for it. Unless you are affecting what he so wants to protect, all in the name of goodness and virtue. I probably should have left this at "business" since the last parts will fuel even more argument on your side. And yes, suffering is a pretty awful thing and no one wants to have it, but it is an explained punishment in the Bible for "your" kind. Our kind. Who disrespected a simple order. I think it's them who've destroyed us more than he might have. The capacity to sin part is an erroneousness that needs to be corrected. God initially didn't give that to anyone. Adam and Eve were oblivious as little children. Sin only manifested in their consciousness when Satan himself appeared as the snake in the tree. So God didn't give them anything. It was all Satan's influence. In which case, they wouldn't have had intelligence.

Thirdly: the fault is most likely ours. Our ancestors are the ones who ate from the tree about which they were told and instructed not to eat from. Although it was also irrational to toss us into the same fire as them, we do quintessentially come from them and are a product of what they did. Hence the susceptibility to the punishments effected.

 

[jtolliver87]

Ive studied most religions and I can honestly say that Satan isnt "Evil" he's doing his job..his job is to punish all those who dont follow Yahweh's rules people seem to forget that Lucifer loves God more than anyone which is why he was so hurt when God proclaimed us his most beautiful creation...So is he extra motivated to prove God wrong and say "See you couldve stopped the buck with me im your best creation..YES... but its purely out of love for God and does God love him unconditionally Yes...can he be forgiven Yes will he be forgiven probably

 

[Nobel]

Well, it's not that Satan denied his status as an angel. He challenged God's right to rule(can't remember the exact reason, I think it was simply hubris in most incarnations), so God and him set up a challenge. Satan would have dominion over Earth so God could use him as an example of how no one but him is capable of ruling.

Are you implying that free will cannot exist without the capacity for sin?

Sinful behavior was recognized waaay before "he/it" came into picture/the bible, just look at the pagans and their massive propaganda.

 

[Kanino]

These answers are top notch lol..... I'm learning so much

 

[Lightbringer]

Satan's pride is too great to ask for forgiveness.

Also in the bible, I believe it was already prophesied that Satan after Armageddon would be thrown into the abyss for eternity.

So to answer your question, yes he can forgive, but that is not going to happen based on the texts of the bible.

 

[jtolliver87]

Think of him as Teenage Anakin Skywalker he's throwing a tantrum

 

[jtolliver87]

Satan's pride is too great to ask for forgiveness.

Not necessarily true God is eternal love...and he has said love for all creatures especially one of the 1st he ever created knowing full well when he created him what would happen...its kind of like greek mythology on that note Hades doesnt like his job judging the damned same goes for Lucifer

 

[Inmate]

1. But that's like challenging gravity with nothing but your cliff and a body, lmao.

2. How can Satan rule if God keeps meddling with prophets, judgment day, telling humans not to follow him, etc. Seems like God's cheating, lol.

Just kidding though, I don't wanna go to hell xD

Hell is a great place, unlike what the Bible says. Satan's demons care enough to give you coffee in your fiery bed and scolding pillows as a new day dawns in waking fire that sweetly burns your skin.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

How is that even a coherent decision though, did the devil have autism? It's like the small percentage of humans who say I don't identify as human, I identify as a squirrel, lol.

Can't say, I guess they derped from the dawn of creation.

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[jtolliver87]

It was actually Eve that convinced Adam to eat from the tree and the devil convinced her.. the devil and Adam never had any real interaction

And ate from the tree actually means had ***

 

[Punk Hazard]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph. There's so much wrong in this comment I almost went blind.

First: where did you even get the idea that Satan only killed 6 people? I'll also ask you why he was permitted. There was, of course, a reason behind that. But still. Why would God give Satan such an order? I don't remember him being on speaking terms with Satan. Ever. The only time Satan remotely spoke to God (holy spirit) was when he tempted him in the mountains and all.

Job 1:1-12New International Version (NIV)

Prologue
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Job 2New International Version (NIV)

2 On another day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

6 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

9 His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

11 When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him. 12 When they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him; they began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads. 13 Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights. No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was.

Secondly: God didn't anticipate that Satan would fall out of grace. He could have seen it. Omniscient and all. Considered that. But as I have vividly pointed out, God in vivid depiction is told as a non-living being that has enough respect and honor to give freedom to those whom want it. Actually it is so freely given, you could do practically anything you want without him being in your business.

I had to stop at the bold. Are we talking about the same God? The same God that decreed that people who:

1. Ate sea animals without fins or gills

2. Planted different species of crops in the same plot

3. Wore clothing of mixed clothing

should be maimed and/or killed? The same God that decreed that homosexuals and people who work on the Sabbath should be killed? The same God that decreed:

1 Corinthians 6:9 ►
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have *** with men

1 Corinthians 6:10 ►
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Genesis 38:9-10 ►
But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.

What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death also.

This sounds like the same God you're talking about? The same God that killed a man because he loved gold, food, and drink more than he loved God?

The same God who flooded the entire Earth because he didn't like what was going on inside? The same God that turned Sodom and Gomorrah into charcoal because there was rampant homosexuality? That guy doesn't intervene when people do whatever they want?

Except when it really calls for it. Unless you are affecting what he so wants to protect, all in the name of goodness and virtue. I probably should have left this at "business" since the last parts will fuel even more argument on your side. And yes, suffering is a pretty awful thing and no one wants to have it, but it is an explained punishment in the Bible for "your" kind. Our kind. Who disrespected a simple order.

1. OR God could have gave us that knowledge and prevented any kind of turmoil in the first place. It's far smarter for him to have simply avoided instilling suffering. This is like saying "Well, I could have stopped you from getting raped but I didn't because now you truly understand how terrible it is. I also could have just told you that."

2. You can't blame Adam and Eve for eating that quince. For one thing, they didn't even KNOW the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, so how could they have made that distinction in the first place and not eat the fruit? Secondly, how were they supposed to know God was telling the truth and Satan was a liar? They have one magical voice telling them A, and then a second one telling them the first one lied and the truth is B. They have limited knowledge and no way to tell who the true liar is, so how is it their fault?

Furthermore, how is it MY fault that THEY ate that quince? Why should any person who ISN'T Adam or Eve suffer for their decisions? I'm sorry, but God is incredibly inefficient.

I think it's them who've destroyed us more than he might have. The capacity to sin part is erroneousness and needs to he corrected. God initially didn't give that to anyone. Adam and Eve were oblivious as little children.

And yet it's their fault.

Sin only manifested in their consciousness when Satan himself appeared as the snake in the tree. So God didn't give them anything. It was all Satan's influence. In which case, they wouldn't have had intelligence.

Actually, no, God created each and every thing.

John 1:3 ►
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So God created sin and the human capacity for it.

Thirdly: the fault is most likely ours. Our ancestors are the ones who ate from the tree about which they were told and instructed not to eat from. Although it was also irrational to toss us into the same fire as them, we do quintessentially come from them and are a product of what they did. Hence the susceptibility to the punishments effected.

Yes, this is logical. Because my father slapped a man, every one of his children should also be charged.

 

[Inmate]

Ive studied most religions and I can honestly say that Satan isnt "Evil" he's doing his job..his job is to punish all those who dont follow Yahweh's rules people seem to forget that Lucifer loves God more than anyone which is why he was so hurt when God proclaimed us his most beautiful creation...So is he extra motivated to prove God wrong and say "See you couldve stopped the buck with me im your best creation..YES... but its purely out of love for God and does God love him unconditionally Yes...can he be forgiven Yes will he be forgiven probably

So, essentially, you're saying God would like, smile and hug him and prod his back for repenting?

 

[jtolliver87]

Satan's pride is too great to ask for forgiveness.

Also in the bible, I believe it was already prophesied that Satan after Armageddon would be thrown into the abyss for eternity.

So to answer your question, yes he can forgive, but that is not going to happen based on the texts of the bible.

The bible only goes up to the point that satan is defeated and thrown into the abyss and there will be peace for 1000 years to be exact we dont know what comes after that

 

[jtolliver87]

So, essentially, you're saying God would like, smile and hug him and prod his back for repenting?

After his punishment yes...he is supposed to be defeated and thrown into the abyss and there will be peacefor 1000 years after that I reckon God would forgive him considering he loved Lucifer THE ABSOLUTE MOST until he created us

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph. There's so much wrong in this comment I almost went blind.

First: where did you even get the idea that Satan only killed 6 people? I'll also ask you why he was permitted. There was, of course, a reason behind that. But still. Why would God give Satan such an order? I don't remember him being on speaking terms with Satan. Ever. The only time Satan remotely spoke to God (holy spirit) was when he tempted him in the mountains and all.

Secondly: God didn't anticipate that Satan would fall out of grace. He could have seen it. Omniscient and all. Considered that. But as I have vividly pointed out, God in vivid depiction is told as a non-living being that has enough respect and honor to give freedom to those whom want it. Actually it is so freely given, you could do practically anything you want without him being in your business. Except when it really calls for it. Unless you are affecting what he so wants to protect, all in the name of goodness and virtue. I probably should have left this at "business" since the last parts will fuel even more argument on your side. And yes, suffering is a pretty awful thing and no one wants to have it, but it is an explained punishment in the Bible for "your" kind. Our kind. Who disrespected a simple order. I think it's them who've destroyed us more than he might have. The capacity to sin part is an erroneousness that needs to be corrected. God initially didn't give that to anyone. Adam and Eve were oblivious as little children. Sin only manifested in their consciousness when Satan himself appeared as the snake in the tree. So God didn't give them anything. It was all Satan's influence. In which case, they wouldn't have had intelligence.

Thirdly: the fault is most likely ours. Our ancestors are the ones who ate from the tree about which they were told and instructed not to eat from. Although it was also irrational to toss us into the same fire as them, we do quintessentially come from them and are a product of what they did. Hence the susceptibility to the punishments effected.

Essentially you're saying Satan's free will that God has respected is to blame for Adam and Eve's actions and yet we're all punished for that. You admit irrationality but dismiss it because we are their product, by that very reasoning God should be susceptible to the same punishments.

 

[Punk Hazard]

The bible only goes up to the point that satan is defeated and thrown into the abyss and there will be peace for 1000 years to be exact we dont know what comes after that

We do, according to Biblical text. During those 1000 years, those resurrected will have a chance to subject themselves to Jesus Christ, the ruling force of heaven and Earth. Those that do will inherit Paradise on Earth, living on for eternity, and those that don't will be destroyed and cease to exist altogether. 144,000 will then ascend to Heaven to rule alongside Christ as priest-like figures.