Hiruzen and Sasori vs Orochimaru and Deidara

[KidGamer65]

Came from nowhere? Just take a loot at the same page where 2-3 trees were ripped out of the ground. There's one zoomed-out panel which clearly shows the area F:GB covered. Also, Orochimaru later in that chapter used F:GB in a different form - a stream of wind in a similar fashion to Hiruzen, which makes it pretty obvious that he can expand on the pressure and pushing power by reducing the area of effect.

Yes, from nowhere. That zoomed out area doesn't show anything that would substantiate your claim of "it was the diameter of 10 trees" nor does it being as large as what was shown in that panel larger or even remotely on par with any of Hiruzen's 5 elements. I'm going to need scans if you want to continue arguing that Great Breakthrough will counter Raiton, otherwise you are doing nothing but wasting your time.

I'm pretty sure Orochimaru could counter Hiruzen's Fuuton with his own, especially if we take power scaling into consideration (and Hashi DNA boost, but I will address it below).

Based on nothing.

Wow, you really are desperate.
1) Hashirama himself stated that Orochimaru strengthened Edo Tensei bind by using his DNA. I didn't know one could strengthen jutsu with stamina and vitality.
2) Hidden snakes got several times stronger.

1. The binding of Edo Tensei isn't an offensive jutsu. Stop being inept and stop ignoring facts for at least one moment of your time on this forum. :lol Orochimaru's own chakra was enough to increase the binding power for Edo Tensei. An irrelevant occurrence to bring up.

2. No, it didn't. :lol Repeating the same nonsense over again isn't going to make it true. Claiming that Hidden Snakes got larger thus Hashirama's DNA boosted his power is also an extremely nonsensical statement to make solely because Hidden snakes are summoned snakes. The summon doesn't indefinitely grow in strength with the user. Did Garuda become stronger when Sasuke got Hagoromo's power? No. So stop reaching already.

It doesn't matter how many jutsu he used. 2 out of 2 were stronger than before. Also, do you even have any proof that Obito, Danzo or anyone else didn't get a boost to their ninjutsu from Hashi cells? While Danzo is of course very questionable, because he didn't even have any control over the cells, the rest is just your pure imagination.

No offensive jutsu of Orochimaru's was stronger before. Just like no offensive jutsu of anyone I mentioned was stronger. :lol

-Madara's PS is the same as when he was alive.
-Madara displaying his Ninjutsu after being revived lead Hashirama to say that Madara is REGAINING his old power. Madara's Katon did not become stronger due to Hashirama's DNA.

Hashirama's DNA has been explicitly stated to do one thing, increase vitality and chakra reserves and it increases the effectiveness of certain techniques (ET, Koto, Izanagi), but it doesn't provide any kind of raw boost to Ninjutsu. That's fanfiction.

Even Yamato's example suggests (but suggests - I'm not saying things with 0 proof like you do) that Hashi DNA boosted his ninjutsu prowess. You can just look at his massive Suiton and Doton jutsu. Quite impressive for a jounin.

Your suggestion is irrelevant simply because there is nothing supporting it.

 

[blazekev90]

A platform of Sand lets them both hover safely above the ground. Though the way this battle will likely go, Hiruzen and Sasori will be fighting in pretty much the same general area and will have no need to make any kind of movement that'd put them at risk of setting off any land mines. Hiruzen's range is enough to catch Deidara and Raiton can negate any incoming bombs so they don't need to run around the field. Oro's own offense has also been addressed. There's also the fact that a giant Raiton stream can take out the C2 bird when/after it's summoned and before Oro has spread most of the landmines.

C3 takes longer to prep than the rest of his bombs. What do you think these Hiruzen and Sasori will be doing once Rashomon is summoned? Waiting for Oro and Deidara to emerge? Lmao they simply go around the gates and assault them. This battle won't ever be a long range match so we can forget about C3 being set up before Hiruzen and Sasori reach him. Then there's the fact that C3 in it's prepared size can't fit inside any snake's mouth, and even if it could they'd be able to tell the snake is approaching. [

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Using a land mine is obviously impossible because landmines only go off when they are touched, so they'd have to wait for Hiruzen and Sasori to actually step on the landmine.

Lmao I don't need to make your argument seem weaker than it is because it's already beyond weak. They don't need to track his movements when his target is pretty obvious, them. Setting up an Iron Sand protection around them once they notice Oro has gone missing (which will happen unless snakes can garner 100% of their attention, which is not possible w/ Sasori, Hiruzen and a clone being on this field and with Sasori's ability to literally one shot any kind of summon in a second or two) or levitating above the ground using Sasori's Iron Sand lets them block or evade this underground+snipe combo.

Which doesn't help your point because in that specific scenario using Rashomon is pointless and doesn't help nor is it practical.

Haha. I'm gonna assume this is a joke too.

Or you could prove that the weak Fuuton Orochimaru showed is strong enough to repel Hiruzen's Bijuu+ sized Raiton, but you can't because it's simply not true. Why would "zetsu amped" matter? The term "zetsu amped" doesn't make sense because being in a zetsu meatsuit doesn't enhance your Ninjutsu's power. Having Hashirama's DNA doesn't make your ninjutsu stronger. I hope this is a joke too.

Bold#1: so both Soasori and Hiruzen are on sand platforms, when Iron Sand lacks the ability to effectively attack and defend simultaneously? I say this because Iron Sand's versatility is extremely limited in comparisons to Garra's, as in order for Iron sand to take on a form, the sand must act collectively. A single waive controls all the sand, as we've witnesss

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Iron Sand can't be used like Garra's sand as a strategic counter. Ex) Garra who provided small platforms for Lee and himself, still had the ability to have Sand take on a different form to act defensively and/or offensively. Sasori's Iron Sand lacks feats to operate in this manner. Unless he used formed two big blocks like he's been previously, one to carry them and the other used for offensive purposes. However, even then, they'd be vulnerable to oncoming attacks, putting all three targets in one area to attack.

Bold#2: yes, Raiton negate INCOMING bombs, however Deidara is the master of distraction. His straightforward attacks are only used as decoys for a sneak attack.

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So while Hiruzen focuses his attention on incoming bombs, and the presence of snakes, he'd fail to acknowledge his sneak attacks.


Manda's approach was used to distract Gama! Manda was already under Gama, at least his upper body, yet in that scan NO debris was created underneath Gama. This meaning this was intentionally done for an attack from behind. So no, they won't be able to see the snake approach if it decides to conceal its movements underground.

"This battle won't ever reach long range." Deidara has superior speed/reflex feats than anyone in this match. Being able to predict Sasori's movements, as Sakura did and Hiruzen having to worry about Orochimaru. He'd have no problem making it a long range battle.

Lastly, both Deidara and Orochimaru utilize clones as well. Therefore, decoys for planting mines aren't far fetched whatsoever.


SN: "zetsu amped" was coined from the statement which credited the 1st Hokages cells for having increased Orochimaru's restraining power while using Edo.

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Tobimara having encountered Orochimaru prior to having Zetsu body knew Orochimaru's limited power, he knew that having been revived "near full power" his chakra would overpower Orochimaru's. However, he know that wasn't the case, solely because his cells/chakra was enhanced. Look at Kabuto. This meaning Orochimaru's jutsu are enhanced as well.

 

[KidGamer65]

Bold#1: so both Soasori and Hiruzen are on sand platforms, when Iron Sand lacks the ability to effectively attack and defend simultaneously? I say this because Iron Sand's versatility is extremely limited in comparisons to Garra's, as in order for Iron sand to take on a form, the sand must act collectively. A single waive controls all the sand, as we've witnesss

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Iron Sand can't be used like Garra's sand as a strategic counter. Ex) Garra who provided small platforms for Lee and himself, still had the ability to have Sand take on a different form to act defensively and/or offensively. Sasori's Iron Sand lacks feats to operate in this manner. Unless he used formed two big blocks like he's been previously, one to carry them and the other used for offensive purposes. However, even then, they'd be vulnerable to oncoming attacks, putting all three targets in one area to attack.

That doesn't even make sense. No, the entire sand doesn't need to be used at once. That's just something you literally made up. :lol So yeah, I'm going to pretend like you didn't say any of this until you can prove or support what you are saying with an actual statement.

Bold#2: yes, Raiton negate INCOMING bombs, however Deidara is the master of distraction. His straightforward attacks are only used as decoys for a sneak attack.

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So while Hiruzen focuses his attention on incoming bombs, and the presence of snakes, he'd fail to acknowledge his sneak attacks.

You're going to have to be more descriptive when it comes to showing how Deidara ever lands any kind of sneak attack if you want me to give a real rebuttal. Hiruzen isn't alone. The presence of snakes has been addressed multiple times in this thread. Deidara's incoming bombs are good sneak attacks because they actually explode when not used against someone who can nullify them with a single hand sign. So we can forget about Deidara ever landing any kind of attack on Hiruzen. "He can distract people" isn't a complete argument.

Manda's approach was used to distract Gama! Manda was already under Gama, at least his upper body, yet in that scan NO debris was created underneath Gama. This meaning this was intentionally done for an attack from behind. So no, they won't be able to see the snake approach if it decides to conceal its movements underground.

You can clearly see debris around Manda's head when he breaks free from the ground. So no, this snake sneak attack one shot stuff isn't happening.

"This battle won't ever reach long range." Deidara has superior speed/reflex feats than anyone in this match. Being able to predict Sasori's movements, as Sakura did and Hiruzen having to worry about Orochimaru. He'd have no problem making it a long range battle.

That literally has nothing to do with whether or not the fight becomes long range. :lol

Lastly, both Deidara and Orochimaru utilize clones as well. Therefore, decoys for planting mines aren't far fetched whatsoever.

Mines were addressed regardless of them being able to place them or not.

 

[blazekev90]

That doesn't even make sense. No, the entire sand doesn't need to be used at once. That's just something you literally made up. :lol So yeah, I'm going to pretend like you didn't say any of this until you can prove or support what you are saying with an actual statement.



You're going to have to be more descriptive when it comes to showing how Deidara ever lands any kind of sneak attack if you want me to give a real rebuttal. Hiruzen isn't alone. The presence of snakes has been addressed multiple times in this thread. Deidara's incoming bombs are good sneak attacks because they actually explode when not used against someone who can nullify them with a single hand sign. So we can forget about Deidara ever landing any kind of attack on Hiruzen. "He can distract people" isn't a complete argument.




You can clearly see debris around Manda's head when he breaks free from the ground. So no, this snake sneak attack one shot stuff isn't happening.




That literally has nothing to do with whether or not the fight becomes long range. :lol



Mines were addressed regardless of them being able to place them or not.

I didn't say the Sand needed to be used at once, I said they respond collectively when taking a new form. Hence, hindering Sasori from creating different forms simultaneously to attack and defend efficiently. Provide scans proving otherwise. Until then, remain mute on matter.

How descriptive do I need to be to illustrate something so simple?! Deidara has the means to creat small or large bombs that would pose a threat, forcing Hiruzen to focus his attention on that specific target! A brief second is all that is necessary in creating an opening for a counterattack. We've witness shinobi create clones in a blink of an eye, so no matter how mild the distraction is, it can be used effectively. In the process of doing that, he creates another clay bomb to sneak neither beside or behind Hiruzen for a sneak attack. Hiruzen not being alone means nothing when he's facing two oppoents that have more offensive distractions to offer. Well how about you address it now, I'm not reading prior post which were probably subjective. Distraction is an argument when that's his fighting style.

After he emerges!! We're discussing his approach! You said they'd be able to see the snakes approach using a scan that showed Manda strategically bypassing Gama while allowing his lower body to create debris, in order to distract him for a sneak attack. We see the debris stop well before it reaches Gama, however we know Manda's upper body was already behind him.

Actually, it does. Deidara being faster than both opponents and having the ability to predict the movements of one, allows him to stay one step ahead of his opponents. Adding Orochimaru and snakes to the equation increases that probability. Unless you're providing a means they prevent him from doing so...

Address it again. Keep it brief if you please.

SN: "zetsu amped" was coined from the statement which credited the 1st Hokages cells for having increased Orochimaru's restraining power while using Edo.

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Tobimara having encountered Orochimaru prior to having Zetsu body knew Orochimaru's limited power, he knew that having been revived "near full power" his chakra would overpower Orochimaru's. However, he know that wasn't the case, solely because his cells/chakra was enhanced. Look at Kabuto. This meaning Orochimaru's jutsu are enhanced as well.

 

[KidGamer65]

I didn't say the Sand needed to be used at once, I said they respond collectively when taking a new form. Hence, hindering Sasori from creating different forms simultaneously to attack and defend efficiently. Provide scans proving otherwise. Until then, remain mute on matter.

How descriptive do I need to be to illustrate something so simple?! Deidara has the means to creat small or large bombs that would pose a threat, forcing Hiruzen to focus his attention on that specific target! A brief second is all that is necessary in creating an opening for a counterattack. We've witness shinobi create clones in a blink of an eye, so no matter how mild the distraction is, it can be used effectively. In the process of doing that, he creates another clay bomb to sneak neither beside or behind Hiruzen for a sneak attack. Hiruzen not being alone means nothing when he's facing two oppoents that have more offensive distractions to offer. Well how about you address it now, I'm not reading prior post which were probably subjective. Distraction is an argument when that's his fighting style.

After he emerges!! We're discussing his approach! You said they'd be able to see the snakes approach using a scan that showed Manda strategically bypassing Gama while allowing his lower body to create debris, in order to distract him for a sneak attack. We see the debris stop well before it reaches Gama, however we know Manda's upper body was already behind him.

Actually, it does. Deidara being faster than both opponents and having the ability to predict the movements of one, allows him to stay one step ahead of his opponents. Adding Orochimaru and snakes to the equation increases that probability. Unless you're providing a means they prevent him from doing so...

Address it again. Keep it brief if you please.

Which is based on nothing. Lmao. Don't ever quote me again if this is all you know how to do. You literally pull this same stupid stunt every time you post. Prove your statements or don't address my posts. Simple as that. The sand's functions have been stated in the Manga and in the databook and no such limitation was highlighted, and it's natural that no such limitation was highlighted because it's just something you made up.

And again you are using bad logic. Deidara having the capability to use distractions doesn't mean that his distractions will work, and you know this which is why you've failed to actually address how he sets up this little feint of his. :lol

-Bomb goes at Hiruzen.
-Raiton is used.
-Bomb is negated.
-Follow up attack is dodged.

Deidara has no kind of attack that will bypass his Raiton and reach Hiruzen before his attack has been launched and resolved. That's a fact. Don't bother responding if you are going to be vague with your posts.

That debris is from when he was emerging. Meaning during the process of emerging they will see him and they will evade or defend. :lol It's really as simple as that. The only way any snake back attack works is if they can mask the approach and the emergence which they factually cannot do. Nothing more to discuss here.

No, it doesn't. Deidara being faster than them doesn't mean that he can make the battle long range. To make the battle long range he has to be able to travel so fast that they won't be able to maintain a close to mid range distance, and he cannot do that. Thus the battle never becomes long range. Not a hard concept to grasp. I can be faster than someone in a 500m dash yet said person could only be a few feet behind me. Literally the same concept.

 

[blazekev90]

Which is based on nothing. Lmao. Don't ever quote me again if this is all you know how to do. You literally pull this same stupid stunt every time you post. Prove your statements or don't address my posts. Simple as that. The sand's functions have been stated in the Manga and in the databook and no such limitation was highlighted, and it's natural that no such limitation was highlighted because it's just something you made up.

And again you are using bad logic. Deidara having the capability to use distractions doesn't mean that his distractions will work, and you know this which is why you've failed to actually address how he sets up this little feint of his. :lol

-Bomb goes at Hiruzen.
-Raiton is used.
-Bomb is negated.
-Follow up attack is dodged.

Deidara has no kind of attack that will bypass his Raiton and reach Hiruzen before his attack has been launched and resolved. That's a fact. Don't bother responding if you are going to be vague with your posts.

That debris is from when he was emerging. Meaning during the process of emerging they will see him and they will evade or defend. :lol It's really as simple as that. The only way any snake back attack works is if they can mask the approach and the emergence which they factually cannot do. Nothing more to discuss here.

No, it doesn't. Deidara being faster than them doesn't mean that he can make the battle long range. To make the battle long range he has to be able to travel so fast that they won't be able to maintain a close to mid range distance, and he cannot do that. Thus the battle never becomes long range. Not a hard concept to grasp. I can be faster than someone in a 500m dash yet said person could only be a few feet behind me. Literally the same concept.

You're literally ignoring manga feats in order to cling onto this weak argument lol. I've provided post and reasoning. You're ignoring them, trying to talk your way out of it per usual. Iron Sand, in every scene responded collectively in form. This is puppet being controlled, so while he can mold chakra and create multiple forms, he can't change forms simultaneously as Garra, because Sasori has to send signals to the puppet. I've shown to two scan exemplifying how these signals work. Lol. If no such limitations exist, Sasori would've been able to shield the 3rd Kazekage while attacks Sakura, or rather attacking Sakura and having a created more Sand to sneak around her to attack Chiyo. Lol there's a reason why the spikes remainder presence alongside Sakura and Chiyo, when creating Sand blocks.

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Had the Sand been able to act simultaneously, the spikes would've lost its form and attacked Chiyo. Instead them remaind as they were, in order to use Sand blocks.

Lmao so Hiruzen is dodging an approaching sneak bomb attack?!? With what speed feats?!? Even Sasuke resorted to using CM to withstand some of the damage. Again, you're being desperate.

The sneak bomb won't need to bypass his ration, it'll avoid it completely. The purpose of the sneak bomb is to take another approach, while the decoy bombs recieves all the attentions. I provided scans when Deidara has done this against Garra. What aren't you getting?!? Lmao. It will fly behind Hiruzen as he focuse will being on the decoy bomb. Hiruzen would have no reason to assume a sneak attack unless it's revealed.

Are you looking at the same scan as I am?! Lol do you see where the debris stops?

You're not explaining how they prevent Deidara from going long range. By what means are they doing this?

 

[KidGamer65]

You're literally ignoring manga feats in order to cling onto this weak argument lol. I've provided post and reasoning. You're ignoring them, trying to talk your way out of it per usual. Iron Sand, in every scene responded collectively in form. This is puppet being controlled, so while he can mold chakra and create multiple forms, he can't change forms simultaneously as Garra, because Sasori has to send signals to the puppet. I've shown to two scan exemplifying how these signals work. Lol. If no such limitations exist, Sasori would've been able to shield the 3rd Kazekage while attacks Sakura, or rather attacking Sakura and having a created more Sand to sneak around her to attack Chiyo. Lol there's a reason why the spikes remainder presence alongside Sakura and Chiyo, when creating Sand blocks.

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Had the Sand been able to act simultaneously, the spikes would've lost its form and attacked Chiyo. Instead them remaind as they were, in order to use Sand blocks.

Lmao so Hiruzen is dodging an approaching sneak bomb attack?!? With what speed feats?!? Even Sasuke resorted to using CM to withstand some of the damage. Again, you're being desperate.

The sneak bomb won't need to bypass his ration, it'll avoid it completely. The purpose of the sneak bomb is to take another approach, while the decoy bombs recieves all the attentions. I provided scans when Deidara has done this against Garra. What aren't you getting?!? Lmao. It will fly behind Hiruzen as he focuse will being on the decoy bomb. Hiruzen would have no reason to assume a sneak attack unless it's revealed.

Are you looking at the same scan as I am?! Lol do you see where the debris stops?

You're not explaining how they prevent Deidara from going long range. By what means are they doing this?

Are you daft? Lmao. Sasori didn't defend because he wasn't trying to defend. He was trying to hit her. The Manga has stated that the sand can be made into whatever it wants and never has it implied any kind of limitation that you are making up now. He's made different shapes at the same time. You can cut the bullshit now. The spikes remaining there means that after launching them Sasori couldn't manipulate them again. Saying nonsense like "he can't make 2 blocks be different shapes at once lol)" makes no sense because him choosing to use blocks to attack Sakura instead of using the sand that was already in front of her doesn't imply what you are saying it implies. It implies that he couldn't control it again.

Yes. There is no sneak attack that he can launch that Hiruzen won't see coming and either negate, block or dodge. You are also being purposely vague because you can't come up with a real argument so I'll consider this a conceded point till you stop being a tard. :lol Sasuke is irrelevant because Sasuke was in a position where he couldn't evade due to mines and C2. Hiruzen doesn't have that issue.

No, no bomb he has is fast enough to slide by his Raiton and hit him before he can do something about it. Where are the scans proving this garbage? Lmao. The scans w/ Gaara are of course irrelevant. Deidara only managed that because HIS OWN EXPLOSIONS MASKED THE APPROACH OF HIS BOMBS. A luxury he doesn't have because Hiruzen will NEGATE his bombs. Do I have to break this down even further for you? Jesus Christ. :lol

If C1 is used it is blocked or negated.
If C2 is used it is negated.
There's no sneak attack he can feasibly launch that will get past both him and Sasori's guard. "But I want it to" isn't an argument. Sorry pal.

:lol What the hell are you on about? There is debris around Manda's head in that scan. Lying won't get you anywhere so just don't even try it. As for the long range thing, you've failed to explain how Deidara can make this long range. How come every time you argue, when your BS is challenged instead of supporting it you ask for proof that you are wrong? :lol


Lmao blazekev do yourself a favor and don't quote me again. It seems arguing with common sense is beyond your capabilities.

 

[blazekev90]

Are you daft? Lmao. Sasori didn't defend because he wasn't trying to defend. He was trying to hit her. The Manga has stated that the sand can be made into whatever it wants and never has it implied any kind of limitation that you are making up now. He's made different shapes at the same time. You can cut the bullshit now. The spikes remaining there means that after launching them Sasori couldn't manipulate them again. Saying nonsense like "he can't make 2 blocks be different shapes at once lol)" makes no sense because him choosing to use blocks to attack Sakura instead of using the sand that was already in front of her doesn't imply what you are saying it implies. It implies that he couldn't control it again.

Yes. There is no sneak attack that he can launch that Hiruzen won't see coming and either negate, block or dodge. You are also being purposely vague because you can't come up with a real argument so I'll consider this a conceded point till you stop being a tard. :lol Sasuke is irrelevant because Sasuke was in a position where he couldn't evade due to mines and C2. Hiruzen doesn't have that issue.

No, no bomb he has is fast enough to slide by his Raiton and hit him before he can do something about it. Where are the scans proving this garbage? Lmao. The scans w/ Gaara are of course irrelevant. Deidara only managed that because HIS OWN EXPLOSIONS MASKED THE APPROACH OF HIS BOMBS. A luxury he doesn't have because Hiruzen will NEGATE his bombs. Do I have to break this down even further for you? Jesus Christ. :lol

If C1 is used it is blocked or negated.
If C2 is used it is negated.
There's no sneak attack he can feasibly launch that will get past both him and Sasori's guard. "But I want it to" isn't an argument. Sorry pal.

:lol What the hell are you on about? There is debris around Manda's head in that scan. Lying won't get you anywhere so just don't even try it. As for the long range thing, you've failed to explain how Deidara can make this long range. How come every time you argue, when your BS is challenged instead of supporting it you ask for proof that you are wrong? :lol


Lmao blazekev do yourself a favor and don't quote me again. It seems arguing with common sense is beyond your capabilities.

If he couldn't manipulate the spieks any longer, that's a limitation you nut! Lol. You tell me another why Sasori couldn't manipulate it, I'll wait....lol

I've acknowledged it's ability to take any form, my argument is his inability to attack and defend simultaneously! Once a form is created, he has to use send a signal to the Kazekage for it attack collectively or strike one at a time. He can't manipulate two different attacks at once!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the issue fool. Lol
Ex)spikes used collectively as a single strike
Ex)Sand drizzle used collectively as a single strike
Ex) Iron blocks, two different shapes, but attacked separately because Sasori can only send one signal to correspond with the puppet.

I really have to paint a picture, sigh. Deidara has a few options, the quickest one would be to use a similar approach as against Garra.

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Send two or more small agile birds directly towards Hiruzen as decoys. Considering their speed and exploding range, Hiruzen would be forced to act offensively, as dodging wouldn't work. if Hiruzen used "bijuu-size" ration as you described, he's completely vulnerable for a sneak side attack from another similar bird as Garra was. The reason being, an attack that size, similar to Garra's Sand, temporarily shields the users line of vision from his opponent. That opening allows for another Bird to approach for a counter attack.

Another option:

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These+Small snakes. They allow a stealth approach, as both Hiruzen and Sasori would be focused on bigger threats.

C2 are large guided bombs that was easily noticeable. They'd be used as decoys, not for the sneak attack.


Kid...wtf lol. Debris stops right before Gama and more debris appears behind Gama AFTER HIS HEAD EMEGRES. I'm focusing on Manda's approach. You can clearly see in that scan the debris of his travel stops a few feet before reaching Gama, resulting in a attack from its tail! However, there no debris shown to have travelled close and under Gama, where Manda upper body had appeared! This is why I'm discussing boy!

How does Deidara make it long range? Lol

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It's simple. Will Sasori summon the 3rd Kakekage before this?no.
Will Hiruzen shiruken prevent this? No, especially not with Orochimaru's futuon jutsu. Lol

 

[KidGamer65]

If he couldn't manipulate the spieks any longer, that's a limitation you nut! Lol. You tell me another why Sasori couldn't manipulate it, I'll wait....lol

Not a limitation that has anything to do with my argument. :lol Do you even think my guy? Jesus.

I've acknowledged it's ability to take any form, my argument is his inability to attack and defend simultaneously! Once a form is created, he has to use send a signal to the Kazekage for it attack collectively or strike one at a time. He can't manipulate two different attacks at once!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the issue fool. Lol
Ex)spikes used collectively as a single strike
Ex)Sand drizzle used collectively as a single strike
Ex) Iron blocks, two different shapes, but attacked separately because Sasori can only send one signal to correspond with the puppet.

Which is based on nothing once again. Sasori attacked that way because he had no need or intention to defend at that moment in time. If you aren't going to get me a statement I'm just going to ignore what you have to say on this matter. Iron Sand and Gold Sand are both manipulated via the same technique, and the gold sand's manipulation is very similar to Gaara's. Those are facts. Sasori not being able to hold a platform shaped object for him and Hiruzen and being able to attack at the same time is fanfiction. Then we have the fact that it doesn't even fall under your make believe restrictions because he's not changing the shape of the platform while he's attacking. :lol So now you have to go to trying to prove Sasori can't hold multiple shapes at once or that he can't control multiple Iron Sand objects at once, but both have been proven wrong so please just drop this argument for the love of all that is holy.

I really have to paint a picture, sigh. Deidara has a few options, the quickest one would be to use a similar approach as against Garra.

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Send two or more small agile birds directly towards Hiruzen as decoys. Considering their speed and exploding range, Hiruzen would be forced to act offensively, as dodging wouldn't work. if Hiruzen used "bijuu-size" ration as you described, he's completely vulnerable for a sneak side attack from another similar bird as Garra was. The reason being, an attack that size, similar to Garra's Sand, temporarily shields the users line of vision from his opponent. That opening allows for another Bird to approach for a counter attack.

:lol Yes, let's forget that against Gaara he was able to mask all that nonsense with the explosion of his C3 and with the fact that Gaara had to focus on blocking it to protect the villagers. :lol Now since you love to just say things without actually seeing if they are physically possible let's go over what will really happen here.

-Deidara sends his small birds at Hiruzen and Sasori.
-Sasori either blocks w/ Iron Sand or Hiruzen blocks with an Earth Wall. In the event Hiruzen uses Raiton they are negated and then whatever is coming from the side is dodged. :lol All his birds are the same speed, so how in the actual hell is he going to release batch 1 as a decoy, get Hiruzen to attack them and then release batch 2 from a different direction and expect them to reach Hiruzen BEFORE he can react?

He can't. That's how. It's physically impossible unless Deidara's first wave of attack can garner Hiruzen's full attention for an unnatural amount of time, but considering Raiton takes no time to use and negates the bombs automatically on contact this isn't possible. :lol See? You're just saying shit without thinking if it makes sense first.

Another option:

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These+Small snakes. They allow a stealth approach, as both Hiruzen and Sasori would be focused on bigger threats.

Lmao. Do you have any critical thinking skills whatsoever? Deidara is in the air. They'd see those approaching. What bigger threats would they be focused on? The same nonsense snake diversion that I already addressed? :lol Jesus Christ.

C2 are large guided bombs that was easily noticeable. They'd be used as decoys, not for the sneak attack.

That's even worse, because C2 is his fastest bomb, meaning he'd be using a slower bomb which is dumb for the reasons explained above.

Kid...wtf lol. Debris stops right before Gama and more debris appears behind Gama AFTER HIS HEAD EMEGRES. I'm focusing on Manda's approach. You can clearly see in that scan the debris of his travel stops a few feet before reaching Gama, resulting in a attack from its tail! However, there no debris shown to have travelled close and under Gama, where Manda upper body had appeared! This is why I'm discussing boy!

And I'll copy and paste what I already said to address this.

That debris is from when he was emerging. Meaning during the process of emerging they will see him and they will evade or defend. It's really as simple as that. The only way any snake back attack works is if they can mask the approach and the emergence which they factually cannot do. Nothing more to discuss here.

Lmao I can only wonder how people like this actually exist in real life.

How does Deidara make it long range? Lol

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It's simple. Will Sasori summon the 3rd Kakekage before this?no.
Will Hiruzen shiruken prevent this? No, especially not with Orochimaru's futuon jutsu. Lol

Getting on his bird doesn't make this a long range fight. :lol In terms of horizontal distance he can make it long range, but in terms of vertical distance he can't. If he tries to run they will follow him. Not sure why you are talking about him getting on his bird like that means anything.

 

[blazekev90]

Not a limitation that has anything to do with my argument. :lol Do you even think my guy? Jesus.



Which is based on nothing once again. Sasori attacked that way because he had no need or intention to defend at that moment in time. If you aren't going to get me a statement I'm just going to ignore what you have to say on this matter. Iron Sand and Gold Sand are both manipulated via the same technique, and the gold sand's manipulation is very similar to Gaara's. Those are facts. Sasori not being able to hold a platform shaped object for him and Hiruzen and being able to attack at the same time is fanfiction. Then we have the fact that it doesn't even fall under your make believe restrictions because he's not changing the shape of the platform while he's attacking. :lol So now you have to go to trying to prove Sasori can't hold multiple shapes at once or that he can't control multiple Iron Sand objects at once, but both have been proven wrong so please just drop this argument for the love of all that is holy.



:lol Yes, let's forget that against Gaara he was able to mask all that nonsense with the explosion of his C3 and with the fact that Gaara had to focus on blocking it to protect the villagers. :lol Now since you love to just say things without actually seeing if they are physically possible let's go over what will really happen here.

-Deidara sends his small birds at Hiruzen and Sasori.
-Sasori either blocks w/ Iron Sand or Hiruzen blocks with an Earth Wall. In the event Hiruzen uses Raiton they are negated and then whatever is coming from the side is dodged. :lol All his birds are the same speed, so how in the actual hell is he going to release batch 1 as a decoy, get Hiruzen to attack them and then release batch 2 from a different direction and expect them to reach Hiruzen BEFORE he can react?

He can't. That's how. It's physically impossible unless Deidara's first wave of attack can garner Hiruzen's full attention for an unnatural amount of time, but considering Raiton takes no time to use and negates the bombs automatically on contact this isn't possible. :lol See? You're just saying shit without thinking if it makes sense first.



Lmao. Do you have any critical thinking skills whatsoever? Deidara is in the air. They'd see those approaching. What bigger threats would they be focused on? The same nonsense snake diversion that I already addressed? :lol Jesus Christ.



That's even worse, because C2 is his fastest bomb, meaning he'd be using a slower bomb which is dumb for the reasons explained above.



And I'll copy and paste what I already said to address this.



Lmao I can only wonder how people like this actually exist in real life.



Getting on his bird doesn't make this a long range fight. :lol In terms of horizontal distance he can make it long range, but in terms of vertical distance he can't. If he tries to run they will follow him. Not sure why you are talking about him getting on his bird like that means anything.

Your argument? Wtf are you talking about? Limitation regarding his manipulation of Sand is my argument. Unless that was a typo on your part.

All Sand manipulation works the same way. We know that. However, you're failing to understand that this a puppet being controlled, it can't think for itself. The Sand corresponds to Sasori's charka strings, sending a single signal to the Kazekage. If the 3rd Kakzskage was alive or reanimated this wouldn't be an issue or concern. However, this isn't the case. Sasori would be able to provide a platform and be able to attack, yet the platform in which they stood on wouldn't be able to move simultaneously as the attacking Sand because he can't manipulate two different acts at once. Ex) if Sasori is using one Sand block to attack Deidara and Manda or whomever were to attack them on a Sand platform, the platform wouldn't be able to move, unless Sasori discontinued his pursue of Deidara. It's inability to multitask. Whether he's unable to do or he it's his fighting style, manga feats have shown this to be his method of using Iron Sand. This is something Garra and his Father could do because they have the ability to act and think simultaneously.

Garra/=Hiruzen. Their fighting style are completely different. Hiruzen fighting style is linear. Garra has the ability to attack and defend simultaneously, while remaining out of harms way. Therefore, Garra being distracted by C3 isn't a plausible excuse as to why Hiruzen would need a similar scenario in order for Deidara to create an opening. Let's not forget this is 2vs2 battle, hmmmkay? Lol

-The moment they shield themselves to defend against small birds, you've lose direct sight of their opponents temporarily. That's enough time create another bird(s) without their knowing and allowing Orochimaru to summon Manda or utilize hydra transformation. Either summon would pose too great of a threat to ignore, and focusing on a small unexpected
-All "birds have the same speed" these birds dodged KN1 Naruto, forced Sasuke off balance, etc, yet you think Hiruzen is dodging a bird within his range?! Provide speed feats suggesting he can or remain mute on this argument.
-I'm thinking clearly, you're just thinking very narrow. Kakashi used Itachi's own Katon against him, how? The size of the Katon created a brief moment in which Itachi lost direct sight of Kakashi, allowing Kakashi to create clone, conceal his himself and have the clone travel underground. You're underestimating the significance in time lapse during these fights. Fighting against someone like Deidara you need to watch his every move, otherwise he'll have a sneak prepared without your knowing. He's successfully done in every match.

"C2 is faster" I thought you said all birds were the same speed? Regardless, it's a matter of what will draw attention, its speed is insignificant, especially when Hiruzen lacks speed feats to counter.

As I said, Manda revealed himself in that manner strategically. Manda partially masked his approach. Had Gama noticed him approaching, head first, he would've prevented the attack from behind, nailing Manda in the head while underground. However, he didn't because Manda's upper body movements were concealed. The debris was the result of his tail/longer body and the debris behind him was the result of Manda emerging. Get it? Ok

Lol they follow him how?!?! They purse him on foot? 10,000 slow they down. Iron blocks? Soasori has to summon the Kazekage, release the Sand and than command it to create its form. Lol Deidara would be long gone by then. Provide specifics instead of these vague condescending responses lol

 

[Oblivionx]

team 1 should win high diff. Orochimaru couldn't beat hiruzen with edo tensei. How is he doing anything without it. Hiruzen died because of edo tensei in the first place. Sasori is also superior to deidara because of being a puppet and deidara's own admission of inferiority. With hiruzen it becomes easier.

 

[blazekev90]

team 1 should win high diff. Orochimaru couldn't beat hiruzen with edo tensei. How is he doing anything without it. Hiruzen died because of edo tensei in the first place. Sasori is also superior to deidara because of being a puppet and deidara's own admission of inferiority. With hiruzen it becomes easier.

Orochimaru didn't take Hiruzen during that fight. Neither used they're most reliable jutsu. Surely you're aware of that.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your argument? Wtf are you talking about? Limitation regarding his manipulation of Sand is my argument. Unless that was a typo on your part

No clown. Him being unable to do that specific act is your argument. Not all limitations in general. Lmao do you even read before you type this nonsense up?

All Sand manipulation works the same way. We know that. However, you're failing to understand that this a puppet being controlled, it can't think for itself. The Sand corresponds to Sasori's charka strings, sending a single signal to the Kazekage. If the 3rd Kakzskage was alive or reanimated this wouldn't be an issue or concern. However, this isn't the case. Sasori would be able to provide a platform and be able to attack, yet the platform in which they stood on wouldn't be able to move simultaneously as the attacking Sand because he can't manipulate two different acts at once. Ex) if Sasori is using one Sand block to attack Deidara and Manda or whomever were to attack them on a Sand platform, the platform wouldn't be able to move, unless Sasori discontinued his pursue of Deidara. It's inability to multitask. Whether he's unable to do or he it's his fighting style, manga feats have shown this to be his method of using Iron Sand. This is something Garra and his Father could do because they have the ability to act and think simultaneously.

The puppet having no mind of it's own is irrelevant because Sasori is controlling. Sasori controlling it doesn't change how the sand is used that's just you making shit up as usual. You can type the same nonsense over and over again if you want but it won't change the fact that you literally made it up.

Garra/=Hiruzen. Their fighting style are completely different. Hiruzen fighting style is linear. Garra has the ability to attack and defend simultaneously, while remaining out of harms way. Therefore, Garra being distracted by C3 isn't a plausible excuse as to why Hiruzen would need a similar scenario in order for Deidara to create an opening. Let's not forget this is 2vs2 battle, hmmmkay? Lol

How is this relevant? Gaara and Hiruzen being different is the exact reason why you using Gaara's fight as evidence makes zero sense. Gaara was distracted by C3 because he had to protect his village. How is that evidence that Hiruzen gets distracted by a completely different maneuver? I'll wait.

-The moment they shield themselves to defend against small birds, you've lose direct sight of their opponents temporarily. That's enough time create another bird(s) without their knowing and allowing Orochimaru to summon Manda or utilize hydra transformation. Either summon would pose too great of a threat to ignore, and focusing on a small unexpected

But can the birds reach them before they regain line of sight? No. Not possible. That's the fact you keep ignoring. :lol What does summoning Manda or transforming do? Are you going to argue that he's going to strike them while they are blocking C1 birds? Cause if you are.....LMAO.

-All "birds have the same speed" these birds dodged KN1 Naruto, forced Sasuke off balance, etc, yet you think Hiruzen is dodging a bird within his range?! Provide speed feats suggesting he can or remain mute on this argument.

How do the birds DODGING Naruto prove that Hiruzen can't dodge them? What birds forced Sasuke off balance? C2? If you are talking about C2 then no he doesn't dodge them as already stated if you were actually reading. If they are C1 they are dodged as C1 is not fast. Stop using garbage logic my guy.

-I'm thinking clearly, you're just thinking very narrow. Kakashi used Itachi's own Katon against him, how? The size of the Katon created a brief moment in which Itachi lost direct sight of Kakashi, allowing Kakashi to create clone, conceal his himself and have the clone travel underground. You're underestimating the significance in time lapse during these fights. Fighting against someone like Deidara you need to watch his every move, otherwise he'll have a sneak prepared without your knowing. He's successfully done in every match.

But your nonsense argument is that they STRIKE and DEFEAT these two while they are distracted. You are using shitty logic to compensate for your lack of a valid argument, which is why you keep on mentioning different scenarios to prove this one. Kakashi was able to create a clone while his vision was masked. He didn't manage to launch an attack that was capable of defeating Itachi. Same goes for Deidara literally every time he has used this maneuver in canon.

"C2 is faster" I thought you said all birds were the same speed? Regardless, it's a matter of what will draw attention, its speed is insignificant, especially when Hiruzen lacks speed feats to counter.

All C1 birds are equal in speed. All C2 birds are equal in speed. C1 and C2 have already both been addressed.

As I said, Manda revealed himself in that manner strategically. Manda partially masked his approach. Had Gama noticed him approaching, head first, he would've prevented the attack from behind, nailing Manda in the head while underground. However, he didn't because Manda's upper body movements were concealed. The debris was the result of his tail/longer body and the debris behind him was the result of Manda emerging. Get it? Ok

Lmao can you stop being a moron for just one second and read what I'm saying? MANDA EMERGING WILL CAUSE DEBRIS NO MATTER WHAT. That is a fact unless you are going to argue that for him to emerge instead of breaking through the surface of the ground he can phase through it like Obito can. :lol That's why Manda had debris around his head when he emerged behind Gamabunta.

Get it?

Lol they follow him how?!?! They purse him on foot? 10,000 slow they down. Iron blocks? Soasori has to summon the Kazekage, release the Sand and than command it to create its form. Lol Deidara would be long gone by then. Provide specifics instead of these vague condescending responses lol

10,000 what? 10,000 snakes? 1 of Hiruzen's elements and they are all blown away. Deidara can't create any reasonable distance before Sasori can get his sand out. "He'd be long gone by them" isn't an argument. It's a statement with nothing backing it as usual with your posts.

So what's Deidara gonna do? Focus on running away while these 2 chase him? Lmao. Hilarious.

 

[Oblivionx]

Orochimaru didn't take Hiruzen during that fight. Neither used they're most reliable jutsu. Surely you're aware of that.

That is like saying minato never used that long named jutsu otherwise he could solo jubi jin. Orochimaru knew better what he should use and what he shouldn't. He used edo tensei, his most dangerous jutsu. Nothing else in his arsenal could match edo tensei. And that is restricted here.