[Discussion] Theses are the 7 People that Defeated Kaido

[Punk Hazard]

Once again since you seemed to miss it the first time. No not every pirate is a rival to each other if they aren't pursuing the same goal or pursuing a victory over each other. For any pirate going after OP any pirate content on staying in GL is not a rival. So you can keep throwing around "every pirate is each other's rival" like it's a valid point trying to marginalize the definition of the word but you're the only one actually saying that. And it wouldn't really be every pirate either it'd be every pirate captain. So go ahead and continue trying to downplay it by being hyperbolic.

You also misread my post, I said Law is a rival to Luffy and so is Buggy but Law is a closer rival than Buggy is. Law is a rival in piracy searching for OP and Buggy is a personal rival searching for victory over Luffy. Both are Luffy's rivals. You can have friendly rivalries too so don't bother coming with that an ally can't be a rival. Since Buggy doesn't seem to really be after OP(seems content having his piece of the pie plus he's looking for that treasure Luffy gave him the bracelet to find) then he and Law aren't really rivals

I'd also like to point out by what definition is it narrow to include more people? You actually just called being more inclusive narrow minded. Bravo.

But by your logic, Law and Buggy SHOULD be rivals since they're both pirates after One Piece /:::

Funnily enough, you ignore one thing in your sports examples. Repetition. Consistency. By your definition, every professional sports team are actually rivals with each other because they're all competing to win the big finale of their season and have similar skill.

Yet, in those examples, that's not the case. In your examples, a rivalry is an exclusive relationship. The keyword being relationship. The teams you listed as rivals aren't rivals with each other simply for existing in tandem with each other while pursuing the same goal, but because they have an ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP of conflict that is more personal than the ones they have with any other given team or person.

Even in those one-sided rivalries, they are on the same level of ability. You need to retain a certain level of exclusive ability to remain, for example, on a football team. And while some teams are way better than the other, they're still in that same ballpark.

Moriah and Kaido don't have this relationship of conflict. Moriah might have a grudge against Kaido because of what he did, but we have never seen the relationship of conflict between being personal and consistent enough for it to be considered rivalry, and not just competition.

Your definition is narrowminded BECAUSE of how inclusive it is. Your outlook on what a rivalry is is so vague and simple, that it applies to an entire population of people. The more simple and dumbed down the definition of something is, aka the more simply and narrowly you look at it, the more people will fit that definition. Your definition of a rival is simply too vague and too broad for the word to have any meaning.

 

[chopstickchakra]

But by your logic, Law and Buggy SHOULD be rivals since they're both pirates after One Piece /:::

Funnily enough, you ignore one thing in your sports examples. Repetition. Consistency. By your definition, every professional sports team are actually rivals with each other because they're all competing to win the big finale of their season and have similar skill.

Yet, in those examples, that's not the case. In your examples, a rivalry is an exclusive relationship. The keyword being relationship. The teams you listed as rivals aren't rivals with each other simply for existing in tandem with each other while pursuing the same goal, but because they have an ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP of conflict that is more personal than the ones they have with any other given team or person.

Even in those one-sided rivalries, they are on the same level of ability. You need to retain a certain level of exclusive ability to remain, for example, on a football team. And while some teams are way better than the other, they're still in that same ballpark.

Moriah and Kaido don't have this relationship of conflict. Moriah might have a grudge against Kaido because of what he did, but we have never seen the relationship of conflict between being personal and consistent enough for it to be considered rivalry, and not just competition.

Your definition is narrowminded BECAUSE of how inclusive it is. Your outlook on what a rivalry is is so vague and simple, that it applies to an entire population of people. The more simple and dumbed down the definition of something is, aka the more simply and narrowly you look at it, the more people will fit that definition. Your definition of a rival is simply too vague and too broad for the word to have any meaning.

Guy, "Since Buggy doesn't seem to really be after OP(seems content having his piece of the pie plus he's looking for that treasure Luffy gave him the bracelet to find) then he and Law aren't really rivals"

Already touched on that, if Buggy shows an active pursuit of OP then yes but seeing as he was on Roger's crew and by all reason should know where and likely what it is but has left it alone hints he's not interested in it like Shanks and WB aren't. Buggy was chilling in East Blue not running the GL or the NW he wasn't searching for OP he was searching for a spot he could control easy and kick back just like he is now with his carnival. Buggy showed more interest in that John's treasure than OP. Again, since I seem to have to keep saying it, same goal or a desire to beat one another. Buggy and Law don't share the same goal. Buggy's not trying to find OP or be the best pirate or kill Doflamingo none of his goals put him on the same river as Law(that's a reference to the Latin origin of the word and a play on words since their pirates and pirates use water nevermind)

"Funnily enough, you ignore one thing in your sports examples. Repetition. Consistency."
Not really because I've already acknowledged in other posts I feel multiple meetings should be a requirement but that doesn't mean it is one. Just because that's how I would like it to be written doesn't change that that's not how the definition is written. And yes every team within a league is a rival of each other and within that league there are teams with deeper rivalries than others.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Guy, "Since Buggy doesn't seem to really be after OP(seems content having his piece of the pie plus he's looking for that treasure Luffy gave him the bracelet to find) then he and Law aren't really rivals"

Already touched on that, if Buggy shows an active pursuit of OP then yes but seeing as he was on Roger's crew and by all reason should know where and likely what it is but has left it alone hints he's not interested in it like Shanks and WB aren't. Buggy was chilling in East Blue not running the GL or the NW he wasn't searching for OP he was searching for a spot he could control easy and kick back just like he is now with his carnival. Buggy showed more interest in that John's treasure than OP. Again, since I seem to have to keep saying it, same goal or a desire to beat one another. Buggy and Law don't share the same goal. Buggy's not trying to find OP or be the best pirate or kill Doflamingo none of his goals put him on the same river as Law(that's a reference to the Latin origin of the word and a play on words since their pirates and pirates use water nevermind)

"Funnily enough, you ignore one thing in your sports examples. Repetition. Consistency."
Not really because I've already acknowledged in other posts I feel multiple meetings should be a requirement but that doesn't mean it is one. Just because that's how I would like it to be written doesn't change that that's not how the definition is written. And yes every team within a league is a rival of each other and within that league there are teams with deeper rivalries than others.

Stopped reading at "Buggy and Law would be rivals if Buggy wanted the One Piece."

TIL competition and rivalry are the same thing. Go figure.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Stopped reading at "Buggy and Law would be rivals if Buggy wanted the One Piece."

TIL competition and rivalry are the same thing. Go figure.

Google definition;
ri·val·ry
ˈrīvəlrē/
noun
noun: rivalry; plural noun: rivalries

competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field.
"commercial rivalry"
synonyms: competitiveness, competition, contention, vying; More
opposition, conflict, feuding, antagonism, friction, enmity
"a growing rivalry between the two groups"

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;

noun, plural rivalries.
1.
the action, position, or relation of a rival or rivals; competition:
rivalry between Yale and Harvard.
2.
an instance of this.

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Hey at least you didn't try to say Buggy was after OP.

And just a bit of friendly advice, take it how you will, you're more effective when you counter with points rather than being petty and dismissive.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Google definition;
ri·val·ry
ˈrīvəlrē/
noun
noun: rivalry; plural noun: rivalries

competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field.
"commercial rivalry"
synonyms: competitiveness, competition, contention, vying; More
opposition, conflict, feuding, antagonism, friction, enmity
"a growing rivalry between the two groups"

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;

noun, plural rivalries.
1.
the action, position, or relation of a rival or rivals; competition:
rivalry between Yale and Harvard.
2.
an instance of this.

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Hey at least you didn't try to say Buggy was after OP.

True, I remember all those people saying Mark Henry and Randy Orton are rivals.

Also Connor McGregor and Brock Lesnar.

Plus, the Cleveland Browns and New York Giants are definitely what people call rivals.

I'm sure you'd call the Miami Heat and the Minnesota Timberwolves rivals in your every day language, right?

 

[chopstickchakra]

True, I remember all those people saying Mark Henry and Randy Orton are rivals.

Also Connor McGregor and Brock Lesnar.

Plus, the Cleveland Browns and New York Giants are definitely what people call rivals.

I'm sure you'd call the Miami Heat and the Minnesota Timberwolves rivals in your every day language, right?

If you're gonna keep arguing the dictionary go dig those ****s George and Charles Merriam up and take it up with them, you're not gonna listen to anyone even when it's written in black and white right there in front of your face.

But to clear it up;

Orton and Henry fought off and on over 3 years for the championship, so yeah by both mine and your definition that you presented in your posts so far that was a rivalry plus every WWE superstar rivals one another for popularity which in turn dictates what level of success they'll typically reach.

McGregor and Lesnar not same division not same goal. Is that really that hard of a guideline to follow or are you purposefully using examples that don't fit because you think it bolsters your point?

Browns/Giants still rivals, their difference in skill level ever fluctuating and all loses always seeking to be avenged with the possibility they meet for the trophy. Does that mean their rivalry is as deep or personal or encompassing as say a Giants/Eagles rivalry, absolutely not but they are still fighting against each other to take that prize. And for the record they have been considered a rivalry in the past,

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Just because the Brown's can't compete as well lately doesn't mean that rivalry is dead, it only dies once everyone's forgotten about it or let it go.

I don't watch basketball that much but it falls into the same scope as the Giants example.

 

[Skull Knight]

You're right about ID but if he was scared of the Marines catching him and going back to ID he'd be mobile and staying on the move not setting up shop on one island and building a giant building in your name that the Marines can easily find. Even Moriah stayed mobile while he was running/hiding from Moriah. You can't call it hiding if you're not moving and advertising where you're staying.

So u are basically saying one needs to be continuously move from one place to another to hide from somebody right.
so i guess Ceasar wasn't hiding in PH.
Seriously bro Why do u think Arlong was bribing that Marine??? Its quite obvious he didnot want VA level guys coming after his a**.

There's also this bit about Arlong Park on the wikia;
Arlong Park was the Arlong Pirates' base of operations. It was located on Conomi Islands. This building, boasting several stories and their Jolly Roger at the top, was conspicuously placed at the coast to show that they had no fear of the law.[1] Plus the fact that he threatened to kill any marine who threatened Nezumi so he's obviously not so scared of the marines that he won't kill some where on the other hand Moriah won't think about attacking one of Kaido's subordinates for fear of Kaido's retaliation.

It was like 5 storey building with one tiny flag at the top.

Spoiler

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Yes Arlong did sent his men to kill those marines because he didn't want any survivors who could possibly report what was happening in Nami's island.

It's not just real life logic it's common logic, if you're killing some of a group and bribing others of that same group to keep it quiet and they do then that's a very poor example of being afraid of that group.

Again these type of logics doesn't work in mangaverse. Let me give u an example in 3rd shinobi war Iwa shinobi's(if i remember properly) were easily killing Konoha's fodder army but they were given instructions to flee battlefield if they see or hear Yellow flash is there. If shinobi's were not afraid of top tiers then a good number of people would be either captured or dead. Same way Arlong knew Marines strength(as he had fought them in numerous occassion) and he knew how strong some VA level guys are and it would be better not to mess with them.

Also you're comparing a manga with known odd proportions to real life proportions so if I can't use real life logic why do you get to use manga drawings as actual representations of the human body? There are 70 year old people in great shape that's not unrealistic.
There's levels of heart attacks, people can still do stuff after having a heart attack depending on the severity and the individual

This is fiction bro. Authors try to make Main characters like human but then start giving them feats which cannot be compared with real life logics like White beard who continued fighting even after a heart attack and lets not forget that he was in really bad shape.

Nami's village was cocoyashi yes but the island it was on was renamed Arlong Park once he took it over.

Spoiler

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that scan doesn't say he reamed the island

You're comparing two different things and calling it apples to apples. You claim Arlong was scared of the Marines and hiding from them, I claim Moriah was scared of Kaido and hiding from him and somehow you equate Arlong bribing and killing those he's "hiding" from to Moriah killing random pirates who have no affiliation to Kaido. Ok?

again going by your logic Moria was also not hiding because
Marines can easily contact/summone him, random fodders found him(which means his hide-out was eaily discovered),
he killed/stole there shadows and they were basically dead if they leave the island so no survivors(like how arlong's men left no surviors),
and he was preparing for world domination thing with his zombies(like arlong wanted to rule East blue).
A lot of arcs in OP can easily be connected with Arlong arc or with Alabasta arc.

Because Kaido isn't interested in going back into the GL which is what Moriah was relying on. He believed Kaido wouldn't chase him where he went, Arlong knew the Marines would still be after him even in East Blue. At least compare apples to apples.

first line is pure assumption. If Kaido wanted Moria dead then he would have sent calamities behind him which would have been more than enough for Moria.
We are talking about a guy whose underling found Zou twice, has under world connections, a shichibukai who can ask marines where moria is and then u think Moria was safe in East Blue. If Kaido wanted then he would have been dead before the start of this series.

 

[chopstickchakra]

So u are basically saying one needs to be continuously move from one place to another to hide from somebody right.
so i guess Ceasar wasn't hiding in PH.
Seriously bro Why do u think Arlong was bribing that Marine??? Its quite obvious he didnot want VA level guys coming after his a**.

Who was Caesar hiding from? BM knew where he was and Kaido was more interested in Joker anyway. Yes he was scared of both of them but he wasn't hiding. There's a difference between being scared of someone and hiding from them. And why do you keep trying to bring up other people? It doesn't change the fact that Moriah was hiding from Kaido.

It was like 5 storey building with one tiny flag at the top.

Spoiler

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So? The size of the building doesn't change that he placed it and his Jolly Roger at the main port of the island where anyone entering would see it.

Yes Arlong did sent his men to kill those marines because he didn't want any survivors who could possibly report what was happening in Nami's island.

If someone is afraid of a groups higher ups then he wouldn't piss that group off by murdering more of its lower members, they'd run when found. Arlong didn't think he could beat a VA but that doesn't mean he was afraid of getting arrested again, the fact that he refused to run and set up shop alludes to this as well.

Again these type of logics doesn't work in mangaverse. Let me give u an example in 3rd shinobi war Iwa shinobi's(if i remember properly) were easily killing Konoha's fodder army but they were given instructions to flee battlefield if they see or hear Yellow flash is there. If shinobi's were not afraid of top tiers then a good number of people would be either captured or dead. Same way Arlong knew Marines strength(as he had fought them in numerous occassion) and he knew how strong some VA level guys are and it would be better not to mess with them.


This is fiction bro. Authors try to make Main characters like human but then start giving them feats which cannot be compared with real life logics like White beard who continued fighting even after a heart attack and lets not forget that he was in really bad shape.

that scan doesn't say he reamed the island

Does it need to? Do you think the island was called Arlong Park before Arlong took over? The island used to be Conomi Islands before Arlong took it, after that he called it Arlong Park.

again going by your logic Moria was also not hiding because
Marines can easily contact/summone him, random fodders found him(which means his hide-out was eaily discovered),
he killed/stole there shadows and they were basically dead if they leave the island so no survivors(like how arlong's men left no surviors),
and he was preparing for world domination thing with his zombies(like arlong wanted to rule East blue).
A lot of arcs in OP can easily be connected with Arlong arc or with Alabasta arc.

Moriah wasn't hiding from the Marines them finding him is irrelevant to his hiding and his ship wasn't easily discovered it was easily found but nobody before SH' got to leave to tell about it so it wasn't a known thing because those who found it ended up stuck there.

first line is pure assumption. If Kaido wanted Moria dead then he would have sent calamities behind him which would have been more than enough for Moria.
We are talking about a guy whose underling found Zou twice, has under world connections, a shichibukai who can ask marines where moria is and then u think Moria was safe in East Blue. If Kaido wanted then he would have been dead before the start of this series.

Fairly certain Moriah said so or it was in a flashback I'll double check. But besides Shanks(who we have no actual proof was a Yonkou during Romance Dawn) what other Yonkou was shown going back out of the NW? Kaido wasn't after Moriah, Moriah was afraid of running into Kaido again too early so he went back to GL to make sure Kaido and him didn't meet too early, that's hiding.

 

[Hellioncurse]

The hell? I'm talking about the fade you received.

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You false idea on what a rival is? Big Fella Your comments on the legitimacy of TB Moriah vs TB Luffy rivalry? Big Fella Crocodiles rivalry to WB? Big Fella Failure to disprove Shanks/Buggy? Big Fella Cavendish/Nova? Big Fella All which are one side rivalries which disprove

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point.

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and

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and

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. Big Fella





1. The original argument was centered around you disagreeing that Moriah in the past could be called Kaido rival.
2.Your whole idea hinged on that given their meeting resulted in the former's lossmy statement was wrong in itself. Furthermore, you spouted the idea that a rivalry was consistency in competing.
3. Arguing that Moriah was not threat to Kaido so the rivalry was moot.
4. You follow up (to another poster) with the quoted bold.
5. To which I state if its ok to admit that Moriah was stronger (than TB Moriah) against Kaido. Its plausible Kaido (non WSC Kaido was weaker) and roughly comparable to him. Hence Oda's need to claim them going toe to toe at some point?
5. In which case as pirates, competing to claim One Piece (so much so in their "sole encounter" they were reputed nigh equals) Moriah and Kaido back then even as per you flawed sense of rivalry which is



6. Yet you gone act the points in bold don't counter clash with italiced? (Big Fella the exist is dat way?

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#shoutoutmigos

Damn Ur funny. I like you already. : )

If you're gonna keep arguing the dictionary go dig those ****s George and Charles Merriam up and take it up with them, you're not gonna listen to anyone even when it's written in black and white right there in front of your face.

But to clear it up;

Orton and Henry fought off and on over 3 years for the championship, so yeah by both mine and your definition that you presented in your posts so far that was a rivalry plus every WWE superstar rivals one another for popularity which in turn dictates what level of success they'll typically reach.

McGregor and Lesnar not same division not same goal. Is that really that hard of a guideline to follow or are you purposefully using examples that don't fit because you think it bolsters your point?

Browns/Giants still rivals, their difference in skill level ever fluctuating and all loses always seeking to be avenged with the possibility they meet for the trophy. Does that mean their rivalry is as deep or personal or encompassing as say a Giants/Eagles rivalry, absolutely not but they are still fighting against each other to take that prize. And for the record they have been considered a rivalry in the past,

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Just because the Brown's can't compete as well lately doesn't mean that rivalry is dead, it only dies once everyone's forgotten about it or let it go.

I don't watch basketball that much but it falls into the same scope as the Giants example.

I'm pretty sure he realized how dumb he sounded and is just trolling now.


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Wow, the lameness in this thread run's to hell and back with that roflmfao.

 

[Nox]

I'm not reading all of this since you're being hella retarded. I'ma leave it at three points:

1. I said Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido than when he fought Luffy. That has nothing to do with whether or not Kaido and Moriah were rivals. That statement can be true regardless of whether or not Kaido and Moiah were ever rivals

2. Kaido and Moriah weren't actively competing with each other. They fought once that we know of. Fighting one time doesn't mean active competition. Luffy fought toe to toe with Enel and Crocodile once, but they aren't rivals, now are they?

Your POV can't be discredited in a debate if you don't read the other party.

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1. Act like you didn't say rivals need to be consistently posing competition.
1. Pretend people who can go toe to toe at one point can't rival each other.
1. Feign ignorance to the glaring flaw in line of thought
2. Act like all pirates are friends until otherwise stated.
2. Act like Enel was a Pirate trying to become Pirate King.
2. Act like Alabasta Crocodile and Alabasta Luffy are not rivals.
2. Disregard panels of Luffy telling Crocodile his will surpass his idea of Pirate
2. Fail English and try and re-write the definition of rival.
3. Fail maths and think 2 is 3.

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EDIT: 4. Fail again by trying to compare Buggy and Law as rivals when Buggy is aiming for Captain Johns treasure and not OP/PK status.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Your POV can't be discredited in a debate if you don't read the other party.

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1. Act like you didn't say rivals need to be consistently posing competition.
1. Pretend people who can go toe to toe at one point can't rival each other.
1. Feign ignorance to the glaring flaw in line of thought
2. Act like all pirates are friends until otherwise stated.
2. Act like Enel was a Pirate trying to become Pirate King.
2. Act like Alabasta Crocodile and Alabasta Luffy are not rivals.
2. Disregard panels of Luffy telling Crocodile his will surpass his idea of Pirate
2. Fail English and try and re-write the definition of rival.
3. Fail maths and think 2 is 3.

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EDIT: 4. Fail again by trying to compare Buggy and Law as rivals when Buggy is aiming for Captain Johns treasure and not OP/PK status.

Looks like we're gonna have to take this wayyyy back to the second page since y'all have diluted this topic wayy beyond what you were saying at first. This started with this post here:

I'd add Moriah as he was said to be his rival once upon a time. Personally, I also think bet on either Akainu or Kizaru. The two were in the marines longer and were among their most competent fighters. With Sengoku having responsibilities of FA and Garp lounging god knows where someone had to step in for his arrests.

You said that you would add Moriah solely because of the fact that Moriah and Kaido were once rivals.

I repeat, according to your post, Moriah being Kaido's rival is enough of a reason to say that Moriah is one of the few people that have defeated Kaido in a fight.

That directly leads into what was going to be my third point:

I was gonna include a third relating to the second, but had to do something. Forgot to change it too two and hit post

And how were Crocodile and Luffy rivals?

My third point directly relates to this. If two people with pretty much no connection like Luffy and Crocodile can be rivals, then where's the value of the word? By this logic, some dude stuck in some bum-**** ocean is Luffy's rival too. By this logic, any weak piece of shit barely out their diapers are Kaido's rival too because they're "rival pirates" and both may want to be Pirate King. The concept of a rival becomes ****ing useless by you lot.

According to your definition and what you've posted:

1. Every pirate who wants to be Pirate King is a rival to each other.

2. Moriah being Kaido's rival is enough reason by itself to suggest that Moriah has defeated Kaido in a fight.

This is what I mean by you diminish all meaning of the word with the way you use it. Because, by your logic, Luffy has been Kaido's rival since he left home. Luffy on Alabasta can be considered Kaido's rival.

If you can say "I'm positive that Moriah defeated Kaido because Moriah was Kaido's rival," then I can say "I'm sure Luffy in Alabasta could defeat Kaido because according to definition, Luffy in Alabasta was his rival."

You see the flaw in how you use the word "rival" now?

So sure, your definition is probably correct(I've never heard anyone use it this vaguely but okay). But that same definition defeats your initial argument, so you might wanna hold off on the gifs and images to fluff your shitty argument when you look just as stupid.

 

[babaGAReeb]

he lost all 7 times to akainu

remember oda said akainu could become pirate king in just one year if he wanted too so it makes sense for even a yonko to lose to him