[Discussion] How do you feel about people burning the American Flag?

[Avani]

At bold: Yet the (s)elected government governs the country and the daily lives of its people and others abroad. The actions of the ones in power represent that flag on a grander scale..

Does the flag represent the government only or the people identify themselves and their country with it too?

And isn't a country just land with borders to claim the 'territory'?..

Can you buy a piece of land, and declare it your territory and be a country? You might be able to put a board stating "Yowyan country" in your land. Get a flag and issue a currency and give yourself a title -Monarch of the Yow Kingdom if you wish. People have tried and it worked until the moment when some other country thinking it owns this Yow land, gets serious about collecting some tax or enforcing the property rights of the neighbours. They may not find it worth the armed troops yet local municipality can come at your door with a bulldozer.

Taiwan says it's a country and has been trying to be an officially recognized one, for a century by now and yet cannot get it's own flag up there in any international event.

"A country is a region that is identified as a distinct national entity in political geography." It has to have a defined territory but it also have a have a permanent population, be able to interact with other countries and make them recognize it and make treaties and relations, maybe some day be able to join the club i.e. UN. All that jazz.

And it's obvious the ones in power couldn't care less for citizens burning the national flag.

Yea so what's the point even? At whom you are directing this form of protest?

The point is that the delusional sense of patriotism is a great distraction for the masses to get angry at the wrong things.

Having no sense of responsibility towards the country you live in and disrespecting it's symbols out of spite for the rest of the people other than you or the government which majority of the people chose is not that great either.

It's little to do with possible delusions of patriots, but delusion of the protesters that the flag only belongs to some so called patriots. Or that it's their personal property and symbol to demean anytime they wish without caring what others think of it. It's a joint symbol.

Patriotism doesn't mean being blind to fault of one's own country or hating others or being with the system only. One can hate how his country is being run or disagree with it's policies and yet be a patriot. But if you are going to demonstrate that disagreement or anger you should be more direct and precise in your display so you can tell whom you are angry at.

If you are a citizen of the country it's your own flag too. If you are not feeling it anymore then that's ok too, but then you have no reason to complain if others say the same thing- that you are not feeling yourself being part of the country. You cannot reject an idea of a country and yet feel offended when others say you are rejecting it. You said it and if it has consequences then bear with it.

You disagreeing with them about what your country should be like doesn't make them delusional by default.

This only helps the ones in power. Reminds me of a quote from Morpheus. 'You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.'

That quote is neither here nor there. What is that "system" you are changing here? I don't know where you are going with that quotes. It seems you are using it for the "cool" factor. Unless you are going to change the constitution and get anther type of system than what that flag is symbolizing, it means nothing. You are demanding rights in that very name, what you are burning down symbolically. It's messed up.

So, no, that's not a misplaced expression of anger. Either way, it wouldn't change a thing and the ones burning the flag are aware of that. Their reason for burning the flag should be clear and has nothing to do with foreign enemies taking over.

Yes it is. You equate flag with the system and I will accept that for the sake of argument. But I still ask, are you rebelling against the system itself or those who are running it? It's just a gimmick where you act as if you are for changing the system but in fact you are letting the people in the government off and by declaring it fault of the system at large and everyone else. Here, people running the government maybe just other victims of the system. That's why I call it misdirected.

P.S.: I don't use the law as grounds for arguments. Something can be illegal yet harmful To none.

It's a symptom that people have different political ideologies and ultimately divides the people of the country in two or more segments- one wants to retain it, others who want to replace it. Whether it's harmful or not cannot be decided on one symptom only.

The replacement maybe a home grown reformist ideology or some alien one. Ones who see themselves as part of the country already and those who want to make it their own new land. People wanting the change maybe wanting the power for themselves only and be put above the ideology of another or may include everyone in. Sometimes the reasons maybe involving different political ideologies including the ones having a center outside of the country and generate a fifth column within- Leading to a direct clash of interests in many ways. Someone/a group may end up harmed anyway despite all good intentions.

This topic isn't really this complicated. You are trying to find some kind of justification for burning the flag but you didn't really counter what I said. We are just going to disagree on this issue too. (like dozens of others).

 

[nefraiko]

Does the flag represent the government only or the people identify themselves and their country with it too?



Can you buy a piece of land, and declare it your territory and be a country? You might be able to put a board stating "Yowyan country" in your land. Get a flag and issue a currency and give yourself a title -Monarch of the Yow Kingdom or something. People have tried and it worked until the moment when some other country thinking it owns this Yow land, gets serious about collecting some tax or enforcing the property rights of neighbours. They may not find it worth the armed troops yet local municipality can come at your door with a bulldozer.

Taiwan says it's a country and has been trying to be an officially recognized one, for a century by now and yet cannot get it's own flag up there in any international event.

"A country is a region that is identified as a distinct national entity in political geography." It has to have a defined territory but it also have a have a permanent population, be able to interact with other countries and make them recognize it and make treaties and relations, maybe some day be able to join the club i.e. UN. All that jazz.




Yea so what's the point even? At whom you are directing this form of protest?



Having no sense of responsibility towards the country you live in and disrespecting it's symbols out of spite for the rest of the people other than you or the government which majority of the people chose is not that great either.

It's little to do with possible delusions of patriots, but delusion of the protesters that the flag only belongs to some so called patriots. Or that it's their personal property and symbol to demean anytime they wish without caring what others think of it. It's a joint symbol.

Patriotism doesn't mean being blind to fault of one's own country or hating others or being with the system only. One can hate how his country is being run or disagree with it's policies and yet be a patriot. But if you are going to demonstrate that disagreement or anger you should be more direct and precise in your display so you can tell whom you are angry at.

If you are a citizen of the country it's your own flag too. If you are not feeling it anymore then that's ok too, but then you have no reason to complain if others say the same thing- that you are not feeling yourself being part of the country. You cannot reject an idea of a country and yet feel offended when others say you are rejecting it. You said it and if it has consequences then bear with it.

You disagreeing with them about what your country should be like doesn't make them delusional by default.



That quote is neither here nor there. What is that "system" you are changing here? I don't know where you are going with that quotes. It seems you are using it for the "cool" factor. Unless you are going to change the constitution and get anther type of system that flag is pretty much symbolizing, it means nothing. You are demanding rights in that very name, that you are burning down symbolically. It's messed up.



Yes it is. You equate flag with the system and I will accept that for the sake of argument. But I still ask, are you rebelling against the system itself or those who are running it? It's just a gimmick where you act as if you are for changing the system but in fact you are letting the people in the government off and by declaring it fault of the system at large and everyone else. Here, people running the government maybe just other victims of the system. That's why I call it misdirected.



It's a symptom that people have different political ideologies and ultimately divides the people of the country in two or more segments- one wants to retain it, others who want to replace it. Whether it's harmful or not cannot be decided on one symptom only.

The replacement maybe a home grown reformist ideology or some alien one. Ones who see themselves as part of the country already and those who want to make it their own new land. People wanting the change maybe wanting the power for themselves only and be put above the ideology of another or may include everyone in. Sometimes the reasons maybe involving different political ideologies including the ones having a center outside of the country and generate a fifth column within- Leading to a direct clash of interests in many ways. Someone/a group may end up harmed anyway despite all good intentions.

This topic isn't really this complicated. You are trying to find some kind of justification for burning the flag but you didn't really counter what I said. We are just going to disagree on this issue too. (like dozens of others).

hey jean ! how are you doing ? you write a lot you should write a book or something.

 

[WubbaLubbaDubDub]

lol kiddies thinking they know about politics.

 

[YowYan]

Does the flag represent the government only or the people identify themselves and their country with it too?



Can you buy a piece of land, and declare it your territory and be a country? You might be able to put a board stating "Yowyan country" in your land. Get a flag and issue a currency and give yourself a title -Monarch of the Yow Kingdom if you wish. People have tried and it worked until the moment when some other country thinking it owns this Yow land, gets serious about collecting some tax or enforcing the property rights of the neighbours. They may not find it worth the armed troops yet local municipality can come at your door with a bulldozer.

Taiwan says it's a country and has been trying to be an officially recognized one, for a century by now and yet cannot get it's own flag up there in any international event.

"A country is a region that is identified as a distinct national entity in political geography." It has to have a defined territory but it also have a have a permanent population, be able to interact with other countries and make them recognize it and make treaties and relations, maybe some day be able to join the club i.e. UN. All that jazz.




Yea so what's the point even? At whom you are directing this form of protest?



Having no sense of responsibility towards the country you live in and disrespecting it's symbols out of spite for the rest of the people other than you or the government which majority of the people chose is not that great either.

It's little to do with possible delusions of patriots, but delusion of the protesters that the flag only belongs to some so called patriots. Or that it's their personal property and symbol to demean anytime they wish without caring what others think of it. It's a joint symbol.

Patriotism doesn't mean being blind to fault of one's own country or hating others or being with the system only. One can hate how his country is being run or disagree with it's policies and yet be a patriot. But if you are going to demonstrate that disagreement or anger you should be more direct and precise in your display so you can tell whom you are angry at.

If you are a citizen of the country it's your own flag too. If you are not feeling it anymore then that's ok too, but then you have no reason to complain if others say the same thing- that you are not feeling yourself being part of the country. You cannot reject an idea of a country and yet feel offended when others say you are rejecting it. You said it and if it has consequences then bear with it.

You disagreeing with them about what your country should be like doesn't make them delusional by default.



That quote is neither here nor there. What is that "system" you are changing here? I don't know where you are going with that quotes. It seems you are using it for the "cool" factor. Unless you are going to change the constitution and get anther type of system than what that flag is symbolizing, it means nothing. You are demanding rights in that very name, what you are burning down symbolically. It's messed up.



Yes it is. You equate flag with the system and I will accept that for the sake of argument. But I still ask, are you rebelling against the system itself or those who are running it? It's just a gimmick where you act as if you are for changing the system but in fact you are letting the people in the government off and by declaring it fault of the system at large and everyone else. Here, people running the government maybe just other victims of the system. That's why I call it misdirected.



It's a symptom that people have different political ideologies and ultimately divides the people of the country in two or more segments- one wants to retain it, others who want to replace it. Whether it's harmful or not cannot be decided on one symptom only.

The replacement maybe a home grown reformist ideology or some alien one. Ones who see themselves as part of the country already and those who want to make it their own new land. People wanting the change maybe wanting the power for themselves only and be put above the ideology of another or may include everyone in. Sometimes the reasons maybe involving different political ideologies including the ones having a center outside of the country and generate a fifth column within- Leading to a direct clash of interests in many ways. Someone/a group may end up harmed anyway despite all good intentions.

This topic isn't really this complicated. You are trying to find some kind of justification for burning the flag but you didn't really counter what I said. We are just going to disagree on this issue too. (like dozens of others).

I don't know how to quote alineas separately, so I'll just keep it short;

You're over-analyzing something very simple. All I gave you was their reason for burning the flag and why it is not unpatriotic. What's so hard to grasp here? Patriotism is standing up against tyranny for the better of your own people. If the ones in charge dismiss the wellbeing of its citizens, what meaning is there to the flag. Wether they hope to achieve something substantial by burning the flag, that's another discussion.

You're rambling over showing disrespect towards a damn flag in comparison to the wellbeing of the people being a secundary priority, if even. And I only mentioned the 'ones in power'. Not the system. So, again, obviously we're talking about the rulers. The system over there, minus the Fed and big brother, would have been fine if ruled with the wellbeing of its citizens as priority nr1. The quote I added was only meant to refer to the fact that people get upset over trivial matters like the topic at large. And by doing so, completely miss the underlying point. Hence, their delusional sense of patriotism being in favour of the ruling class as their pride protects the veil.

But like you said, agree to disagree as usual.

 

[~WastelandSociety~]

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[Avani]

I don't know how to quote alineas separately, so I'll just keep it short;

You're over-analyzing something very simple. All I gave you was their reason for burning the flag and why it is not unpatriotic.

And I said it was misdirected. I don't give a rat's ass bout why these particular people were burning their flag. Nor they need a certificate of patriotism from either of us. You are replying a question I never asked. My comments strictly pertain to the action of flag burning and what this act symbolizes. + I replied to the questions or ideas you keep asking/suggesting.

What's so hard to grasp here? Patriotism is standing up against tyranny for the better of your own people. If the ones in charge dismiss the wellbeing of its citizens, what meaning is there to the flag. Wether they hope to achieve something substantial by burning the flag, that's another discussion.

So you accept that they are rejecting the flag and the country in a symbolic way. I'm not asking for justifications. I am stating what it is. Not so hard to grasp.

You're rambling over showing disrespect towards a damn flag in comparison to the wellbeing of the people being a secundary priority, if even.

Since and only since you are raising the issue of the well being of the citizens repeatedly- protesters in this particular incident who burned the flag are quite intact and well. At least as well as they were before the election.

Trump isn't a president yet. And he hasn't put any "citizen" in danger yet. At this point of time they are just acting up as a sore loser because their candidate lost. Second priority my foot! If the flag is your flag only as long as your candidate wins then you need to rethink what kind of democracy you are looking for.

And I only mentioned the 'ones in power'. Not the system. So, again, obviously we're talking about the rulers.

You posted that damn Morpheus quote about people not wanting to change the system. Get some almonds to fix that memory.

The system over there, minus the Fed and big brother, would have been fine if ruled with the wellbeing of its citizens as priority nr1. The quote I added was only meant to refer to the fact that people get upset over trivial matters like the topic at large. And by doing so, completely miss the underlying point. Hence, their delusional sense of patriotism being in favour of the ruling class as their pride protects the veil.

Nah it's called overreacting/ acting up/ throwing a tantrum/blowing things up out of proportion for losing an election. People in US were unhappy with many policies for years and some voted for a change. It may or may not work out but this other segment is acting up because it's candidate lost. It's this segment which doesn't want an change in the status quo. Maybe the previous government should not have neglected the sections that voted against them this time.

But like you said, agree to disagree as usual.

Sure. ^^