Kakuzu vs. Itachi

BLAZE

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Chiyo stated that pain is enough to break 3t genjutsu and before you say anything Kakashi saying "Itachi is different" is a reference towards Tsukuyomi only.
you know 3T genjutsu can paralyze shinobi and by shinobi's i mean medical nin[excellant cc] and genjutsu user to an extent that they are unable to do anything despite knowing they are in genjutsu [ ][ ]
It makes absolutley no sense to suggest ADDING chakra to the system would stop Genjutsu, because if any chakra were added that chakra ALSO gets manipulated as it is sent to the brain.

this right here even kabuto with continuous supply of senjutsu opted to avoid ocular genjutsu
 
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Zexion~

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And the way you need to do that is by stopping the chakra flow, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't have said stop in the first place. He would've simply said to disturb it. Don't cut out the part of the scan that disproves your argument. :lol Regardless of whether or not it's stop or disturb or disrupt your argument remains invalid.



All this fanfiction man. Lmao. I'll wait for you to prove the bold cause this is how it works.

-Kakuzu runs his chakra through his hearts.
-The hearts then utilize said Ninjutsu.

Where is this "he pushes chakra into the hearts and then the hearts use it for Genjutsu Kai or they store it until he gets caught in Genjutsu" fanfiction coming from? Where is the proof they can manipulate chakra like that on their own which is the main thing you've yet to actually prove? Having chakra is pointless when Kakuzu's input is needed to use it.

And no, the only one not reading properly would be you as usual. Jiraiya states that to counter Genjutsu is to control and stop your chakra flow, and if you can't do it on your own you need to have someone else touch you,

-Zero evidence he can disturb or disrupt his chakra flow with this idiotic method you keep pushing with no evidence.
-Zero evidence he can stop his chakra flow.
-Stop acting like there is a difference between disrupt and disturb. You get no points here.



You must be desperate if you think repeating the same argument that you failed to prove is going to get you anywhere. I'm not even sure if I'm actually seeing what I think I'm seeing here. To think you of all people would reach, grasp and ignore this hard. You can add as many fluff words as you want to the argument it won't change the fact that you have zero proof that his entire chakra flow becomes disrupted because of him switching his hearts. What happens in his heart area is irrelevant to the flow in it's entirety.





Fanfiction. You've yet to actually prove the hearts can manipulate chakra on their own so why would having chakra let them use it to perform Genjutsu Kai?




Physiological changes aren't synonymous with pain. Proof that Kakuzu switching hearts or a heart rejoining his body is a painful process for him? :lol





No. He's not holding his hand sign for Zukkoku here. Like I said. All his jutsu require his input if they are not in his body. You are grasping at straws here and it's pretty evident. Raiton: Gian is not special or exempt from this rule.



Which doesn't prove your point and only helps mine. The only time he can utilize jutsu without hand signs are when the masks are merged with his body. When they are on their own his input is needed.



Based on literally nothing. The Fuuton and Katon had their own separate hand sign made when it was time to utilize said jutsu, and the underlined is literally baseless. Literally no basis at all besides the conclusion. :lol Which isn't a valid piece of evidence.



*Sigh* As usual, no. You are wrong and it's painfully obvious considering how far we are reaching:

-Hearts break Kakuzu out of Ninjutsu.
-Ignoring the fact hand signs are needed for his masks when they are separated from him.
-Giving the hearts controlled by Kakuzu feats of 100% sapient shinobi.
-Switching hearts causes his entire chakra flow to be disrupted even though you don't even have proof of how this switch works, something you keep ignoring whenever it's brought up.

This is exactly what you do when Kakuzu vs. Hebi Sasuke is argued. You start reaching and grasping at straws. (Kakashi=Sasuke in speed, Curse Mark being a small boost etc) Oh yeah, and you seem to think that the typical "make an assertion then support it" rule doesn't apply to you.

KG you're not even replying correctly at this point.


I said FUUTON AND RAITON, and again explain to me why they would need a hand-sign when they are outside the body but not within? Hand-signs are property of the jutsu itself so if he needed one at one point he'd need one at the other regardless of if the hearts were inside or out. Let me show you with absolute proof that he didn't use hand-signs the second time. either explain or be out as it makes sense when you look at it that he'd need a hand-sign to move chakra externally but doesn't need one to move it internally.

I'm done arguing genjutsu with you lol learn how to read ya scans. How else would he get chakra in the hearts if he doesn't push them? You claim fan-fiction I claim things that just weren't fully explained in the manga.

Genjutsu is manipulating the chakra flowing into the target's brain to mess with their senses. Thus the way to stop Genjutsu is to cut off the flow of chakra to the brain so the illusion ends.

It makes absolutley no sense to suggest ADDING chakra to the system would stop Genjutsu, because if any chakra were added that chakra ALSO gets manipulated as it is sent to the brain.

The only way to stop a Genjutsu is to stop/interrupt the flow of chakra briefly so the illusion ends. Adding new chakra isn't going to do either of those things, so I have no idea how new hearts being added to Kakuzu is supposed to accomplish this.

Adding a chakra with different signature/nature adds something new that the genjutsu user isn't controlling already so when it begins to flow to the head the genjutsu is released.

Sakura added her chakra which was not being controlled by Itachi so when it flowed to the head the genjutsu experience was negated :lol
 

BLAZE

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Adding a chakra with different signature/nature adds something new that the genjutsu user isn't controlling already so when it begins to flow to the head the genjutsu is released.

lawd kabuto must be immune to genjutsu then
 

Zexion~

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lawd kabuto must be immune to genjutsu then

Why are you quoting me with terrible inputs :lol Kabuto uses all that chakra primarily and pretty sure everything in there is considered his chakra still so again why are you quoting this.

Senjutsu is HIS chakra with nature energy....... I thought you were arguing the smarter root as its Oro's power but you were arguing senjutsu which is even more idiotic.
 

KidGamer65

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KG you're not even replying correctly at this point.


I said FUUTON AND RAITON, and again explain to me why they would need a hand-sign when they are outside the body but not within? Hand-signs are property of the jutsu itself so if he needed one at one point he'd need one at the other regardless of if the hearts were inside or out. Let me show you with absolute proof that he didn't use hand-signs the second time. either explain or be out as it makes sense when you look at it that he'd need a hand-sign to move chakra externally but doesn't need one to move it internally.

I'm done arguing genjutsu with you lol learn how to read ya scans. How else would he get chakra in the hearts if he doesn't push them? You claim fan-fiction I claim things that just weren't fully explained in the manga.

Lmao you really really really need to stop being stupid. You said Fuuton and Raiton didn't need a hand sign because he loaded chakra into both of them with just the Fuuton hand sign, and I'm asking you for EVIDENCE. Is that a foreign concept to you cats nowadays?

You said that Fuuton and Katon used one hand sign for both, and I pointed out that it was the same hand sign used TWICE. Lmfao. You aren't even reading yet you have the nerve to try and tell others to read. The irony is killing me.

Quit posting proof of him not using hand signs while merged. I already said that he can and I already told you it doesn't prove your argument. While separate beings he's needed hand signs to control their movements. Obviously the hand sign isn't for the jutsu itself because he used the same damn hand sign every single time. :lol

-The hand sign is to manipulate the masks. That is not needed when they are in his body.

-Who said he doesn't push chakra into the hearts? I want proof for him being able to push and store chakra in there and then I want proof for those masks being able to manipulate it for Genjutsu Kai. It not being explained in the Manga doesn't give you the right to make up whatever moronic nonsense you want.

As usual when pushed into a corner you bail out of the argument. Lmao saw this coming from a mile away. Get at me when you stop fanboying and start reading the Manga how it was intended.
 
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KidGamer65

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Genjutsu is manipulating the chakra flowing into the target's brain to mess with their senses. Thus the way to stop Genjutsu is to cut off the flow of chakra to the brain so the illusion ends.

It makes absolutley no sense to suggest ADDING chakra to the system would stop Genjutsu, because if any chakra were added that chakra ALSO gets manipulated as it is sent to the brain.

The only way to stop a Genjutsu is to stop/interrupt the flow of chakra briefly so the illusion ends. Adding new chakra isn't going to do either of those things, so I have no idea how new hearts being added to Kakuzu is supposed to accomplish this.

Don't bother. It's clear this guy would rather wank off to Kakuzu instead of admitting he's wrong.
 

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Lmao you really really really need to stop being stupid. You said Fuuton and Raiton didn't need a hand sign because he loaded chakra into both of them with just the Fuuton hand sign, and I'm asking you for EVIDENCE. Is that a foreign concept to you cats nowadays? Quit posting proof of him not using hand signs while merged. I already said that he can and I already told you it doesn't prove your argument. While separate beings he's needed hand signs to control their movements. Obviously the hand sign isn't for the jutsu itself because he used the same damn hand sign every single time. :lol

-The hand sign is to manipulate the masks. That is not needed when they are in his body.

-Who said he doesn't push chakra into the hearts? I want proof for him being able to push and store chakra in there and then I want proof for those masks being able to manipulate it for Genjutsu Kai. It not being explained in the Manga doesn't give you the right to make up whatever moronic nonsense you want.

As usual when pushed into a corner you bail out of the argument. Lmao saw this coming from a mile away. Get at me when you stop fanboying and start reading the Manga how it was intended. This is pathetic behavior.


Pushed into a corner for 15 pages? lol it gets tiring.

So are you saying that all you need is proof that Kakuzu needs to be able to perform Kai?...... He has the same genjutsu stat as the guy who was teaching Naruto how to break Itachi's genjutsu :lol
 

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Why are you quoting me with terrible inputs :lol Kabuto uses all that chakra primarily and pretty sure everything in there is considered his chakra still so again why are you quoting this.Senjutsu is HIS chakra with nature energy....... I thought you were arguing the smarter root as its Oro's power but you were arguing senjutsu which is even more idiotic.

and is that the reason it was taking over kabuto's body [ ][ ]

and do u now what orochimaru did after getting revived :lol [ ][ ]
 

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and is that the reason it was taking over kabuto's body [ ][ ]

and do u now what orochimaru did after getting revived :lol [ ][ ]

Lmao you switched your argument nice, its the chakra that is primarily flowing through his body so if Itachi uses genjutsu he is using it on that chakra source.
 

KidGamer65

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Pushed into a corner for 15 pages? lol it gets tiring.

So are you saying that all you need is proof that Kakuzu needs to be able to perform Kai?...... He has the same genjutsu stat as the guy who was teaching Naruto how to break Itachi's genjutsu :lol

See. This is proof you don't read before you reply.

I want proof for him being able to push and store chakra in there and then I want proof for those masks being able to manipulate it for Genjutsu Kai. It not being explained in the Manga doesn't give you the right to make up whatever moronic nonsense you want.
 

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See. This is proof you don't read before you reply.

Okay, but if you're saying the masks performing it would break the genjutsu why wouldn't Kakuzu being able to perform it break the genjutsu.... I know how to read you just don't think about the implications of what you're saying apparently.
 

BLAZE

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Lmao you switched your argument nice,
?????
its the chakra that is primarily flowing through his body so if Itachi uses genjutsu he is using it on that chakra source.
and you talk about me flip flopping
what you are basically saying is till you have a secondary source of chakra you are fine against Genjutsu Anyone with curse seal;byakugou etc will be fine against genjutsu smh
 

KidGamer65

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Okay, but if you're saying the masks performing it would break the genjutsu why wouldn't Kakuzu being able to perform it break the genjutsu.... I know how to read you just don't think about the implications of what you're saying apparently.

How is he going to perform Genjutsu Kai while paralyzed?

How is he going to perform Genjutsu Kai if he doesn't know he's under Genjutsu?


I never asked for proof that Kakuzu could use Genjutsu Kai because it's obvious he can, whether or not he'll be able to do so in this scenario is the question.
 

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?????
and you talk about me flip flopping
what you are basically saying is till you have a secondary source of chakra you are fine against Genjutsu Anyone with curse seal;byakugou etc will be fine against genjutsu smh

No, not byakgou.

I'm not saying simply adding massive amounts of chakra would negate genjutsu. Genjutsu manipulates the chakra that is continuously flowing to the head of the opponent, but if a different source completely with an entirely different chakra signature is implemented and begins flowing to the head does the genjutsu user have control over that chakra? I don't believe so, so logically the genjutsu would be relinquished.

I simply don't really know how the curse seal works enough to answer if it would work.
 

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How is he going to perform Genjutsu Kai while paralyzed?

How is he going to perform Genjutsu Kai if he doesn't know he's under Genjutsu?


I never asked for proof that Kakuzu could use Genjutsu Kai because it's obvious he can, whether or not he'll be able to do so in this scenario is the question.

When he's paralyzed he can still use domu and masks within his body to defend against Itachi so that route is almost pointless, and what genjutsu has Itachi used in 3t that was covert?

Kakuzu is an observant shinobi lol I could go through and list the feats but meh, what genjutsu is going to be used here? The ones when Kakuzu is attacking so he misses? The one against Deidara? So he'd attack himself? You'd have to explain to me how that one works exactly.
 

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When he's paralyzed he can still use domu and masks within his body to defend against Itachi so that route is almost pointless, and what genjutsu has Itachi used in 3t that was covert?

Kakuzu is an observant shinobi lol I could go through and list the feats but meh, what genjutsu is going to be used here? The ones when Kakuzu is attacking so he misses? The one against Deidara? So he'd attack himself? You'd have to explain to me how that one works exactly.

Once again, where is the evidence he can utilize Ninjutsu while under Genjutsu? Susanoo didn't work when Itachi and Sasuke got put under Genjutsu. And I've posted too many scans to be bothered to post them again.

-Against B, B only realized he was in a Genjutsu when Itachi let him know.
-Against Deidara, Deidara almost blew himself up because he didn't know he was in Genjutsu until Itachi and the others stopped him from killing himself. As for how it works, the fight continues how Itachi wants it to continue inside his Genjutsu while he mounts an offensive attack on the real Kakuzu who has no idea what is going on. So either he attacks himself or Itachi uses that opportunity to attack him.


And no, don't bother listing the feats, because there is no arguing he's detecting Itachi's Genjutsu. Deidara needed to train his eye for years to do that without Sharingan.
 

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Once again, where is the evidence he can utilize Ninjutsu while under Genjutsu? Susanoo didn't work when Itachi and Sasuke got put under Genjutsu. And I've posted too many scans to be bothered to post them again.

-Against B, B only realized he was in a Genjutsu when Itachi let him know.
-Against Deidara, Deidara almost blew himself up because he didn't know he was in Genjutsu until Itachi and the others stopped him from killing himself. As for how it works, the fight continues how Itachi wants it to continue inside his Genjutsu while he mounts an offensive attack on the real Kakuzu who has no idea what is going on. So either he attacks himself or Itachi uses that opportunity to attack him.


And no, don't bother listing the feats, because there is no arguing he's detecting Itachi's Genjutsu. Deidara needed to train his eye for years to do that without Sharingan.

To completely counter it lol

Don't compare sound genjutsu to the shackle genjutsu 3T has, it simply restrains movement by simulating stakes in the mind, mental abilities are still capable, hence why Itachi had to slice of Oro's hand as to counter anything else.

Kakuzu's jutsu are too huge so even if misdirection genjutsu is applied it would still probably halt an Itachi advance unless he feints the hearts to stray 30 meters away from Kakuzu.
 

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To completely counter it lol

Don't compare sound genjutsu to the shackle genjutsu 3T has, it simply restrains movement by simulating stakes in the mind, mental abilities are still capable, hence why Itachi had to slice of Oro's hand as to counter anything else.

Kakuzu's jutsu are too huge so even if misdirection genjutsu is applied it would still probably halt an Itachi advance unless he feints the hearts to stray 30 meters away from Kakuzu.

They do the same thing. One is sound and the other is visual. Literally the only difference. :lol Tayuya's Sound Genjutsu restrains movement by "simulating ropes (or snakes in Kabuto's version) in the mind". Orochimaru was going to free himself from the Genjutsu obviously judging by how he was going to clap his hands together, not use Ninjutsu.

Kakuzu can barely stop an advance from him when he actually knows what he's aiming at let alone him fighting a battle where he has no idea what's going on in the real world.
 

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Intent for an attack obviously isn't the same as an attack. You don't see his torso area when the jutsu is about to be fired. All you see is Shikamaru know that they are next, meaning they knew that something was gonna come. Then you get a close up of Kakuzu and the jutus launches. Every other jutsu he uses via masks needed hand signs. No reason he didn't do the same or similar here.

It's literally the same exact battlefield. So again, you don't have a point. As long as he can see them and is aware of what they are doing there is no reason this move contradicts what has been shown from him during his fight with Kakashi and Team 10, and that's the fact that his input is needed for them to use Ninjutsu if they are separate.

The specifics? What in the world are you talking about? Chakra is inserted and said chakra is used to stop the chakra flow. There is nothing more you need to know about the jutsu than what is blatantly stated. Adding hearts isn't stated, hinted or implied to do that so why would it break Genjutsu? That is what you are failing to actually support with evidence and it's the same issue the last 2 had.

-Kabuto was constantly taking in Nature Energy yet needed to blindfold his eyes to deal with Itachi and Sasuke's Genjutsu. If addition=stopped chakra flow this wouldn't have happened.

The bold makes it painfully obvious that you know you are wrong but once again are grasping at straws to prove your point. "external form of chakra that brings him out of unconscious state by reconnecting to him via chakra network". Lmao. It revives him because it's a heart. Literally has nothing to do with his chakra network. That is why he can use their nature. Not why he comes back to life. If you aren't going to argue that the following aren't examples of the chakra flow being stopped and disrupted then don't argue this either:

-Kabuto constantly absorbing NE and creating Senjutsu Chakra.
-Tsunade pumping her chakra into Onoki.
-Sakura pumping her chakra into Obito.

Now I'm going to ask this again. Based on what does simply adding chakra from hearts stop the chakra flow? That's what I'm waiting for. Not assumptions based on little to no proof.

Again my point is we did see Kakuzu right before the attack. Nothing to show the close up panel is any different from the middle panel as Shikamaru was already pulling out a scroll and preparing for an attack.

When has Kakuzu ever shown to be able to track all 4 of his masks and attack for them? He has not so again tell me how if they couldnt attack themselves he would send them out in the war where there are multiple enemies around. Its pointless to argue this because the masks have shown to be able to move while Kakuzu is unconscious which is more than enough proof to show they can act on their own.

Yes and its shown to be relatively an process as Sakura did it with a simply tap. Whats stopping the hearts that already act in Kakuzu's best interest even when he is unconscious from pushing their external source of chakra to disrupt the genjustu?

Its not just adding chakra like an absorbing technique. He is adding someone else's chakra to his network so it would be no different than what Sakura and Chiyo did to Naruto.
 
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