Kakuzu v Gai Sensei

[Edogawa]

When did Madara say that about air canons? plus Hiroudora is a punch not a air canon. Are you talking about Evening Elephant. Madara said that attack is bad news if it hits him directly, he never said anything about water.

Spoiler

After opening the seventh of the Eight Gates, the user places a palm facing forward in front of their face with one hand and then taps it with his other hand, formed into a fist, which creates a massive amount of air pressure. Next, the user forms a unique hand seal resembling a tiger. This launches the air pressure at the opponent in the shape of one by leaving a gigantic tiger-shaped impression into the initially built-up air pressure with the hand seal. The air pressure will condense as it's moving and be focused into a single point. The technique then explodes on command, releasing the built up air pressure in an instant. A massive explosion — one that dwarfs Island Turtle — is created which can be felt a significant distance away.

Spoiler

This technique is a continuous assault of five punches, with each "foot" — as they are referred to — being performed faster than the one before. It creates a cannon of pressurised air which bears the appearance of an elephant's leg, causing devastating damage to the opponent. The first punch alone was capable of creating a massive and deep tunnel in the ground. The final punch is strong enough to break through Madara Uchiha's chakra shell.[2] The strength of several of these punches was enough to temporarily immobilise Madara Uchiha as the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki

Both Evening Elephant and Hirudora share one thing in common: Air pressure. Air pressure is denser in water is a scientific fact. Inb4 science doesn't apply in the manga. The manga never debunked this, so it stands that Hirudora is stronger against Kisame than one used in War Arc, because it's denser in water.

The Hiroudora was very small/deflated when it hit Kisame. So you can't compare the two instances. Kisame himself said the jutsu was deflating.

Your scaling is outright laughable. You show me a zoom from Kisame's perspective to somehow determine Hirudora's size? Lmao. Hirudora was equal in size to Suiton Shark.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It was deflating because it was compressing and then exploded upon impact, causing an explosive air proportional to the Island Turtle. Gai isn't going through all the effort of utilizing his strongest attack just to keep someone alive, especially in an environment which causes his Jutsu to be stronger.

no Aoba wanted to get him for intel and Guy didn't even kill Kisame when he got him pinned down with the scroll in his hand.

Intention is irrelevant here, fam. Gai goes all of the trouble to open the 7th Gate, knowing its side effect and uses his strongest technique, so he's going all out. Excuses like this ain't working here. Hirudora can't kill Kisame, so it's not harming Kakuzu with his armor on, which is more durable than Kisame.

Bro, Madara wasn't even pushed very far away lol. If he blown like miles away you may have had a point but nope. Hell, he has shown to activate mokuton over enermous areas like when he did the jukai kuton against base Naruto when they first encountered each other and the flower tree world against the gokage. Also since when did distance affect mokuton bindings that already exists.

• Bold - The distance he was pushed away. [
  You must be registered for see links
  ]
  
  
• Underlined - Wood Dragon is listed short to mid range. Madara was pushed away beyond its range, obviously meaning he could no longer control his Jutsu. Just like how Gududama has a range which specifies how much control the user has over it. This isn't rocket science. Also, activation is not controlling.

Unless you post a panel showing Susanoo completely destroyed, you're just falsely assuming like the rest. Hirudora fails to kill Kisame, it doesn't a more durable person like Kakuzu.

 

[Jugram Haschwalth]

Kisame was protected by the water and Guy said he was aiming to capture not kill. I remember Suigetsu tanking KB's TBB head on and surviving while he was in that water avatar. Since Hiroudora is a punch, it's plausible that guy can exert his own amt. of strength into it.

Plus Hiroudora must have destroyed Madara's V3. All the clues point to it. The mokuton around KB loosened immediately after which implies Madara took a hit, Madara was absent for some pages, plus Madara stated he'll capture the kyuubi and 8 tails so it makes no sense why'd he decide to chill, do nothing and deactivate his susanoo when hiroudora hit him. It wasn't explicitically shown or stated but you get the point.

You must be registered for see links

OP:
Guy loses s1 and s2, wins s3.

I already said water could be the it factor here in my initial post. Hirudora destroying Madara? I believe the grip on Mokuton being weakened means His Susanoo was destroyed?

Nope, it's only his skin. Nothing else.

Kakashi didn't keep up with 6G's speed, that is a misconception. Look at the

You must be registered for see links

. The V2 Jins were already within a close proximity before Kakashi and Gai made there move. They had to make a step or two max before clashing with the Jins. The next page over, Kakashi was seen making his frontal attack, while Gai altered his position and attacked aerial from the side, meaning he made much more movements then Kakashi did. 30% Kisame didn't react, he was blitzed with no physical reaction [

You must be registered for see links

]. He made the stance, and allowed Kisame to strike first.

Gai still didn't show anything superior here though i agree he's faster than Kakashi but he's not fast enough to the point that Kakashi couldn't actually react to him in a fight now that is completely false. Kisame clone did react. He not only swung his blade but his

You must be registered for see links

. Blitz without a reaction is a stretch. That was also a 30% clone so the real Kisame would preform much better than that under the same situation.

You must be registered for see links

.

It was enough to bust V3 Susano'o, and don't give me the tired excuse that Madara purposely let them go and took down his own Susano'O

I agree with this. Just spectacle.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Except we saw him tired as all hell when using ASK against Kisame, pretty sure opening the gates refuels stamina which is why he was able to utilize seventh gate after using ASK, show me an instance in where he used ASK and remained in 6th gate and you'll be set.

Except, we didn't.. and that was early Shippuden Gai anyways. I linked you to a scan that factually proves that Gai doesn't tire out after Morning Peacock, and you give me this bullshit, then wonder why we can't ever have a civil debate. No, only opening the 2nd Gate refuels a gates user. Going from the 6th to 7th Gate doesn't reopen the 2nd Gate, proven

You must be registered for see links

. If Gai is in the 6th Gate, that means gates 1-6 are open. So if he wants to go from 6th to the 7th Gate, then he simply then additionally opens the 7th Gate. All the previous ones don't just shut off.

@ bold -

You must be registered for see links

Now you're reaching, once again I read your post but I clearly said he doesn't need to remove the masks from his body, we've already seen Kakuzu smoking from the friction placed on his body with no internal damage at all

You must be registered for see links

its only logical that heat is also protected against with such a defensive jutsu :lol but say I play along with your ignorant argument despite once again you ignoring facts of science

You must be registered for see links

Go on continue to prove you know more than a doctor in their field though.

Domu tanking Chouji's attack is not even close to being comparable to this scenario. Don't even know why you brought that up. No, it not logical at all, because Domu does nothing but hardens Kakuzu's skin. You don't make sense.

Too bad that article doesn't mention the duration and intensity of heat the body has endured before the organs begin to be effected, nor does it consider the body being completely engulfed in flames... Hence why it say's "usually". The article outright states the human body has to be incinerated for an hour and a half at 1000 degrees Celsius (1832 Fahrenheit) in order to turn the whole body into complete dust. So we know for a fact that it'll take much less then that to force the internal organs to disfunction.

Once your core body temperature reaches 40°C (104°F), your organs begin to fail, and unless you get into cooler conditions immediately, you will die.

You must be registered for see links

The heart beats faster as it increases the flow of blood to the skin, trying to keep critical internal organs from overheating. But if your core temperature continues to rise, drastic measures kick in. Sweat starts dripping — then pouring — from your glands so evaporation can cool the body.

But if humidity leaves the sweat with no place to go and it simply drips off the skin, "your internal temperature will skyrocket," said Matthew Ganio, a researcher at the Institute for Exercise and Environmental Medicine at UT Southwestern Medical Center and Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital. "Eventually it could lead to organ damage and death."

You must be registered for see links

Do I need to continue on? It is a fact that the internal organs will begin to fail as internal body temperature gets too high. No point in attempting to disprove this, because you can't. So how hot are the flames of Morning Peacock? Well, we know that the flames were hot enough to cause the Shark Bombs to immediately evaporate, as shown by the steam and SFX:SHHHSHHH in the

You must be registered for see links

. The boiling point of water is 100°C (212°F), so the flames had to be hot enough to make the Shark Bombs far exceed that temperature in order for it to evaporate instantly like it did. Especially, due to the fact this isn't just water, it's water in fused with chakra. So in other words, Morning Peacock is intensively hot fire. Therefore, Kakuzu being completely engulfed in these flames and exposed to it's extremely hot temperature for an extensive amount of time, will in fact result in his internal body temperature to rapidly increase.

Anyways if you think Kakuzu won't have enough time to fire fuuton on himself which would also force Gai to evade (easily) and put out the flames at the same time you're moronic.

Threads add an extra defense against heat and if normal humans organs are preserved here than Kakuzu's should be in extra okay shape.

All of this is ignoring the fact that Gai breaks his hands after the first few hits on Domu

Which is literally why I stated, after/if the masks are all taken out. Or if they're still inside his body, Kakuzu would have to deactivate Domu around his back to release them, in which time Gai capitalizes, since he is easily faster.

Not going to just take your word for, so whatever you say.

Ignoring the fact that Tsunade and Ay could physically hit Susano'o full force without breaking any bones. Kiba can ram into the Rashomon gates without breaking his neck, etc. What you're stating is not supported by the manga.

Please do what you tell me to all the time and READ

You must be registered for see images

His back wasn't touched at all right? :lol


Edit- I fully expect to get a "This is why I don't argue with you" response, this is merely so others don't believe your argument that betrays normal science not to mention is easily countered.

I have no idea what's your point here. You fully expect that response because you repeatedly quote me without reading and comprehending what I'm saying, as well as your usual nonsensical thought process.

Gai still didn't show anything superior here though i agree he's faster than Kakashi but he's not fast enough to the point that Kakashi couldn't actually react to him in a fight now that is completely false. Kisame clone did react. He not only swung his blade but his

You must be registered for see links

. Blitz without a reaction is a stretch. That was also a 30% clone so the real Kisame would preform much better than that under the same situation.

You must be registered for see links

.

I never stated nor argued that 6G is too fast for Kakashi to react to. I simply pointed out that 6G Gai is faster then Kakashi, which you agreed with. Again, Gai allowed Kisame to swing first. Gai's leg was already coming at Kisame's face. Kisame couldn't do a single thing as far as initiating a physical reaction to counter/parry Gai's kick.

 

[Booker]

Air pressure. Air pressure is denser in water is a scientific fact. Inb4 science doesn't apply in the manga. The manga never debunked this, so it stands that Hirudora is stronger against Kisame than one used in War Arc, because it's denser in water.

This whole paragraph is a fallacy. You can't apply real world science to a fictional manga. It is scientifically impossible for humans to create fire in their bosoms and then launch it as a giant fireball at other people. Similarly, from the evidence we have, Hirudora does not grow stronger in water, since it was severely weaker after going straight through a body of it. You disproved your own statement with your own logic.

 

[Tantalus Thief]

Spoiler

After opening the seventh of the Eight Gates, the user places a palm facing forward in front of their face with one hand and then taps it with his other hand, formed into a fist, which creates a massive amount of air pressure. Next, the user forms a unique hand seal resembling a tiger. This launches the air pressure at the opponent in the shape of one by leaving a gigantic tiger-shaped impression into the initially built-up air pressure with the hand seal. The air pressure will condense as it's moving and be focused into a single point. The technique then explodes on command, releasing the built up air pressure in an instant. A massive explosion — one that dwarfs Island Turtle — is created which can be felt a significant distance away.

Spoiler

This technique is a continuous assault of five punches, with each "foot" — as they are referred to — being performed faster than the one before. It creates a cannon of pressurised air which bears the appearance of an elephant's leg, causing devastating damage to the opponent. The first punch alone was capable of creating a massive and deep tunnel in the ground. The final punch is strong enough to break through Madara Uchiha's chakra shell.[2] The strength of several of these punches was enough to temporarily immobilise Madara Uchiha as the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki

Both Evening Elephant and Hirudora share one thing in common: Air pressure. Air pressure is denser in water is a scientific fact. Inb4 science doesn't apply in the manga. The manga never debunked this, so it stands that Hirudora is stronger against Kisame than one used in War Arc, because it's denser in water.



Your scaling is outright laughable. You show me a zoom from Kisame's perspective to somehow determine Hirudora's size? Lmao. Hirudora was equal in size to Suiton Shark.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It was deflating because it was compressing and then exploded upon impact, causing an explosive air proportional to the Island Turtle. Gai isn't going through all the effort of utilizing his strongest attack just to keep someone alive, especially in an environment which causes his Jutsu to be stronger.



Intention is irrelevant here, fam. Gai goes all of the trouble to open the 7th Gate, knowing its side effect and uses his strongest technique, so he's going all out. Excuses like this ain't working here. Hirudora can't kill Kisame, so it's not harming Kakuzu with his armor on, which is more durable than Kisame.

• Bold - The distance he was pushed away. [
  You must be registered for see links
  ]
  
  
• Underlined - Wood Dragon is listed short to mid range. Madara was pushed away beyond its range, obviously meaning he could no longer control his Jutsu. Just like how Gududama has a range which specifies how much control the user has over it. This isn't rocket science. Also, activation is not controlling.

Unless you post a panel showing Susanoo completely destroyed, you're just falsely assuming like the rest. Hirudora fails to kill Kisame, it doesn't a more durable person like Kakuzu.

>Madara didn't use Wood dragon he used mokuton biding. It's stated as short to mid because that's where the jutsu has an aoe/casting range not what the distance Madara neeeds to be to control it. Don't know why you used the TSB as your example when Kishi gave it has special properties that make it diffirent from the normal functions of jutsu

>Like I said not that far really. He literally ran and jumped back to back where he was in pages.

>technically he's not going all out because he hasn't activated the 8th gate. Still doesn't counter my point of him literally letting Kisame live when he has him right on the ground with the objective in his hand. It's completely possible for characters to use their strongest techniques without killing. I.e. Sasuke using Amaterasu even though he wanted to capture KB. Itachi using Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo etc against Hebi Sasuke. Plus he heard Aoba said he wanted intel from him and Guy agreed to backing Aoba up in capturing Kisame which further proves he wasn't going for the kill. Again Hiroudora is a punch so of course Guy can decide wether or not he puts maximum power into it. In most of his battles he's already decides to not use his maximum power even when he knows the situation is dire like his fight against the Kisame clone, so Guy knows the power of his own strength. Guy said he went to the 7th gate to increase the blast area to get the sharks out of the way.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

>Don't know why you are using that water pressure argument when Suigetsu in a whole bunch of water survived an attack that had enough force to turn a mountain to nothing and burst through rashimon gates. It's clear water in Nv =/= water in real life. Plus said attack was at point blank range.

>I completely agree with the reason why Hirodora got smaller.

>You still haven't explained why Madara's susanoo was gone and why he would not appear until the last few parts of the chapter. inb4 he purposefully deactivated susanoo for apprantely no reason.

 

[EZQ]

Lmao people domu doesn't tank Hirudora. And lmao FT at Kakuzu's internal organs getting over heated. First of all, the guy was cut in a X shape in the war arc and edo regen didn't start, meaning that it wasn't considered "damage", so you can't treat him like a normal person with normal organs. Second of all, a juubi sized Katon did not burn anyone's internal organs despite these people only being covered by a chakra cloak.

How much time do you have to be exposed to fire to get your internal organs over heated? I think that argument is too far fetched.

Kakuzu is never under threat in s1. Wins s2 med-high diff. He gets shat on in s3 with hirudora

 

[KidGamer65]

Lmao people domu doesn't tank Hirudora. And lmao FT at Kakuzu's internal organs getting over heated. First of all, the guy was cut in a X shape in the war arc and edo regen didn't start, meaning that it wasn't considered "damage", so you can't treat him like a normal person with normal organs. Second of all, a juubi sized Katon did not burn anyone's internal organs despite these people only being covered by a chakra cloak.

How much time do you have to be exposed to fire to get your internal organs over heated? I think that argument is too far fetched.

Kakuzu is never under threat in s1. Wins s2 med-high diff. He gets shat on in s3 with hirudora

"Only a chakra cloak" this guy says.

 

[Zexion~]

Lmao people domu doesn't tank Hirudora. And lmao FT at Kakuzu's internal organs getting over heated. First of all, the guy was cut in a X shape in the war arc and edo regen didn't start, meaning that it wasn't considered "damage", so you can't treat him like a normal person with normal organs. Second of all, a juubi sized Katon did not burn anyone's internal organs despite these people only being covered by a chakra cloak.

How much time do you have to be exposed to fire to get your internal organs over heated? I think that argument is too far fetched.

Kakuzu is never under threat in s1. Wins s2 med-high diff. He gets shat on in s3 with hirudora

FR dude can't look past his own ego :lol

@You were wrong about the internal organs and Gai never takes out all the masks so your argument is moot.

Organs can overheat obviously because the enzymes and proteins denature but if Humans with severe burns which means prolonged exposure to flame never show signs of it Kakuzu isn't in this scenario.

Again they are wooden masks and are infused with Kakuzu's skin, that is like saying the threads that hold the skin together aren't hardened either which ultimately would make the jutsu useless.

"Only a chakra cloak" this guy says.

Don't see how chakra cloaks are any different from domu in terms of heat prevention here, not about the durability of them.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Lmao people domu doesn't tank Hirudora. And lmao FT at Kakuzu's internal organs getting over heated. First of all, the guy was cut in a X shape in the war arc and edo regen didn't start, meaning that it wasn't considered "damage", so you can't treat him like a normal person with normal organs. Second of all, a juubi sized Katon did not burn anyone's internal organs despite these people only being covered by a chakra cloak.

How much time do you have to be exposed to fire to get your internal organs over heated? I think that argument is too far fetched.

Kakuzu is never under threat in s1. Wins s2 med-high diff. He gets shat on in s3 with hirudora

Good lord, EZQ. The organs itself that he gathers doesn't defy real life logic. They're fully functioning and beating hearts. When Hidan stabbed himself through the heart with his ritual, Kakuzu "died" just like an ordinary person would. Chakra cloak is canonically heat resistant, shown when it shielded Amaterasu with no difficulty. Not that that is even comparable to what I'm saying anyways, but your counter examples are horrendous.

No idea, but I already explained my reasoning. If Kakuzu is just going to camp in Domu, the possibility is very likely. Since he'll be engulfed in extremely hot flames for however long he decides to sit there.

 

[KidGamer65]

FR dude can't look past his own ego :lol

@You were wrong about the internal organs and Gai never takes out all the masks so your argument is moot.

Organs can overheat obviously because the enzymes and proteins denature but if Humans with severe burns which means prolonged exposure to flame never show signs of it Kakuzu isn't in this scenario.

Again they are wooden masks and are infused with Kakuzu's skin, that is like saying the threads that hold the skin together aren't hardened either which ultimately would make the jutsu useless.




Don't see how chakra cloaks are any different from domu in terms of heat prevention here, not about the durability of them.

They are different because one is Kakuzu's skin, the other isn't clearly.

 

[Zexion~]

They are different because one is Kakuzu's skin, the other isn't clearly.

True, but one obviously changes skin's properties shown by the color change as well as the durability change.

I don't see how that strategy works tbh, I've shown that prolonged flames don't damage human organs at all :lol not saying organs are resistant to overheating because obviously they are not but human skin is terrible insulation so when flames are on the outside the heat doesn't get trapped within thus allowing for purely physical damage most if not all of the time.


Edit- Also when is the heart every overheated? The only organ truly ever susceptible to heat damage is the brain, which is debatable if he has one (I believe he could) so arguing that the hearts that don't even have any function to them would overheat with the mere minute or two that Kakuzu would need to keep domu up is lame.

 

[KidGamer65]

True, but one obviously changes skin's properties shown by the color change as well as the durability change.

I don't see how that strategy works tbh, I've shown that prolonged flames don't damage human organs at all :lol not saying organs are resistant to overheating because obviously they are not but human skin is terrible insulation so when flames are on the outside the heat doesn't get trapped within thus allowing for purely physical damage most if not all of the time.

Still his skin. All that happens is that it gets harder. Literally nothing else.

I'll let you argue the rest with FT.

 

[Zexion~]

Still his skin. All that happens is that it gets harder. Literally nothing else.

I'll let you argue the rest with FT.

Well skin doesn't keep heat within the body very well anyways, hence why the environment's temperature is more effective than just flames on the body in terms heating up our internal temperature.

Eh, I could but I have other things to do and I'd rather work on our debate if its going to happen tbh.

 

[KidGamer65]

Well skin doesn't keep heat within the body very well anyways, hence why the environment's temperature is more effective than just flames on the body in terms heating up our internal temperature.

Eh, I could but I have other things to do and I'd rather work on our debate if its going to happen tbh.

If Proof comes through. I'm hoping that we have an opener posted before the weekend ends.

 

[Tantalus Thief]

Arguing that Hirudora > Domu isn't needed. Hirudora innately eats chakra. Domu is sustained through chakra manipulation.

​

you're confusing Hirudora with great shark bomb. Hiroudora is a taijutsu so it can't eat chakra nor has been stated to.

 

[ToshiZO]

Kakuzu does not need to cover his entire body with Domu, I don't know why people assume he needs to do that, literally all he needs to do is cover his mid section/back where his hearts are located and he doesn't have to resort to "camping" with Domu. That argument is flimsy at best.

 

[Zexion~]

Kakuzu does not need to cover his entire body with Domu, I don't know why people assume he needs to do that, literally all he needs to do is cover his mid section/back where his hearts are located and he doesn't have to resort to "camping" with Domu. That argument is flimsy at best.

I've always thought this but either way he wouldn't be moving very much as its not like he can outrun Gai, so camping in fullbody is still a perfectly fine and the safer one tbh.

 

[Unorthodox]

Over heating Organs? Lmfao.

 

[super yang]

gai sn't beating kakuzu w/ taijutsu.
hiudora does nothing to domu but knocks kak reaaaly far away.
asakujaku won't damage hearts either but is more of a threat since it will actually test kakuzus chakra control w/ domu, as it has multiple hits. it could cause some wear & tear on his tendrils, forcing him to use chakra/heal.

this is like taod/snake slug all over again:

gai(taijutsu)>kisame(fuinjutsu)>kakuzu(ninjutsu)>gai(taijutsu)

and the match is especially horrendous for gai because gates weaken him while kakuzu is a parasitic body-snatcher.

kakuzu tires gai out then jacks his heart in all 3 scenes

edit: also, we should't ascribe concerted properties of heat to taijutsu ITT. those fire balls were artistic representations of peacock feathers & hyperbolic fancy for guys speed/punching prowess.
4 example, asakujake wouldn't cause a forest-fire & cetainly isn't going to burn a normal shinobi innards & certainly not kakuzus.
gai 6th gate combo bludgeoned that fodder to death, not incinerated him. lel...

 

[Edogawa]

>Madara didn't use Wood dragon he used mokuton biding. It's stated as short to mid because that's where the jutsu has an aoe/casting range not what the distance Madara neeeds to be to control it. Don't know why you used the TSB as your example when Kishi gave it has special properties that make it diffirent from the normal functions of jutsu

And Mokuton doesn't have any stated special functions, which suggest it can be remotely controlled from far away distance. So it remains to only be controlled from close to mid range, anything beyond that and the user loses control.

>Like I said not that far really. He literally ran and jumped back to back where he was in pages.

Because pushed away by an attack proportional to the Turtle Island is apparently not far? :lol You're free to believe that.

>technically he's not going all out because he hasn't activated the 8th gate. Still doesn't counter my point of him literally letting Kisame live when he has him right on the ground with the objective in his hand. It's completely possible for characters to use their strongest techniques without killing. I.e. Sasuke using Amaterasu even though he wanted to capture KB. Itachi using Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo etc against Hebi Sasuke. Plus he heard Aoba said he wanted intel from him and Guy agreed to backing Aoba up in capturing Kisame which further proves he wasn't going for the kill. Again Hiroudora is a punch so of course Guy can decide wether or not he puts maximum power into it. In most of his battles he's already decides to not use his maximum power even when he knows the situation is dire like his fight against the Kisame clone, so Guy knows the power of his own strength. Guy said he went to the 7th gate to increase the blast area to get the sharks out of the way.

None of this matters. It's not like Gai is able to manipulate the potency of his attack, if it exploded at such magnitude. So he was using his maximum power to capture Gai in the end, just as any character did. Intention doesn't influence his fighting style at all, when he's releasing huge attacks.

>Don't know why you are using that water pressure argument when Suigetsu in a whole bunch of water survived an attack that had enough force to turn a mountain to nothing and burst through rashimon gates. It's clear water in Nv =/= water in real life. Plus said attack was at point blank range.

Correlating examples when they don't even correlate. Suigetsu is forming a Biju-sized water using Chakra, which isn't the same components that make up natural water. TBB is a nuclear attack and it's not influenced by environmental causes, as they just explode upon contact; Hirudora, on the other hand, is influenced by environmental cause (water) because he's using an air pressure attack. Hirudora in water > Hirudora outside of water.

>You still haven't explained why Madara's susanoo was gone and why he would not appear until the last few parts of the chapter. inb4 he purposefully deactivated susanoo for apprantely no reason.

Then chapter 609 wouldn't end with quoting Madara: ''Oh well'' - Then he deactivated as his casual arrogance built on his character. I don't see any scan of Hirudora destroying Susanoo, when it fails to kill Kisame.