Fact | Genjutsu Immunity; The Hōzuki Clan

[NextGenNinja]

If that's the case, we did kabuto rely on DSM's snake brille to prevent genjutsu from affecting him? Wouldn't it be better to use the Hozuki Hydro tech to be immune? Ofc, he did modify it but it still "Liquefied" his insides.

 

[Byakuren]

If that's the case, we did kabuto rely on DSM's snake brille to prevent genjutsu from affecting him? Wouldn't it be better to use the Hozuki Hydro tech to be immune? Ofc, he did modify it but it still "Liquefied" his insides.

Because Kabuto tampered with the Hōzuki DNA, creating his own execution of the clan's Hiden by fusing it with another technique. If Kabuto would've simply injected himself, and not altered the properties he would've very well been immune to Genjutsu in the same manner the Hōzuki are. Spoiler You must be registered for see images Kabuto very well could be immune to Genjutsu, but the the execution for his Hōzuki-altered technique isn't as useful as the standard Hōzuki technique in regards to actual combat. Kabuto's altered version is more so for tactical retreat, whilst the Hōzuki Clan's technique can be used for both: Assault, and retreat.

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[NextGenNinja]

Because Kabuto tampered with the Hōzuki DNA, creating his own execution of the clan's Hiden by fusing it with another technique. If Kabuto would've simply injected himself, and not altered the properties he would've very well been immune to Genjutsu in the same manner the Hōzuki are.

You must be registered for see images

Kabuto very well could be immune to Genjutsu, but the the execution for his Hōzuki-altered technique isn't as useful as the standard Hōzuki technique in regards to actually combat. Kabuto's altered version is more so for tactical retreat, whilst the Hōzuki Clan's technique can be used for both: Assault, and retreat.

I see. I kinda have doubts still but you make a good point.

 

[FemmeFatale]

Nope Sasuke was able to trap him with the snake binding thingy.

 

[Byakuren]

I see. I kinda have doubts still but you make a good point.

What further doubts do you have? I'll try to clear them up to the best of my ability.

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Nope Sasuke was able to trap him with the snake binding thingy.

Which Suigetsu could've escaped anytime, no one doubts this. Bringing this up amounts to nothing regarding this topic.

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[FemmeFatale]

What further doubts do you have? I'll try to clear them up to the best of my ability.

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Which Suigetsu could've escaped anytime, no one doubts this. Bringing this up amounts to nothing regarding this topic.

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But he said sasuke could've killed him at that moment and no lightening was apparent , I don't even think suigetsu knew of sasuke lightening at this point, which also begs the question of how orochimaru would've captured him

 

[BlacLord™]

Nah.

They could only be immune in their completely liquefied state because of an inability to make eye contact. But that doesn't mean they're immune, it just means the technique is potentially immune. They don't walk around in completely liquefied states after all, so one look and they'd still get caught and be helpless.

 

[Byakuren]

But he said sasuke could've killed him at that moment and no lightening was apparent , I don't even think suigetsu knew of sasuke lightening at this point, which also begs the question of how orochimaru would've captured him

Suigetsu never stated Sasuke could've killed him. Sasuke merely stated if they wanted him to kill them; Suigetsu then reassured the readers, that Sasuke did indeed harbor killing intent while portraying that statement. Spoiler You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images Their interaction inferred they knew of each other; being Orochimaru's "subjects" after all, I'd assume talk would spread around. As you can see Suigetsu even knew about Sasuke, and his former platoon defeating Zabuza. I'm thought to believe Suigetsu possibly knew of Sasuke's abilities vice-versa seeing as Sasuke stated: "I've heard how strong you are." Spoiler You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images Orochimaru's intelligence as to how he's done many things leave us at speculation. There's not a sure way to know how Orochimaru captured Suigetsu. It's possible Suigetsu came willingly as a child, or that Orochimaru sent a squadron to capture him. The possibilities are nigh endless.

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Nah.

They could only be immune in their completely liquefied state because of an inability to make eye contact. But that doesn't mean they're immune, it just means the technique is potentially immune. They don't walk around in completely liquefied states after all, so one look and they'd still get caught and be helpless.

Incorrect. Partial liquidation (i.e. liquefying the bran; erasing the sensory system that Genjutsu overhauls to create illusionary scenarios) nullifies the usage of Genjutsu. The brain is the connection between the five senses in which Genjutsu takes advantage of by sending disruptive chakra into the cranial nerves to create illusions depicted by the user, to the victim. Without the Genjutsu recipient, illusionary techniques cannot be performed. Simple. I've also explained as to why Suigetsu's Hydrification Technique is passively innate:

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Spoiler It's inferred Suigetsu's body composition is passively liquefied; Orochimaru's experimentation likely had something to do with this. Spoiler You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images You must be registered for see images ​

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I've also further explained, that if Hōzuki Clansmen are (on the off chance) captured in Genjutsu, the Hydrification Technique can free them: Spoiler Also, to answer the portion I missed: Yes, I believe he would. Genjutsu cannot become active, and remain active if the opponent is dead. Correct? This is no different; the Hōzuki Clan's liquidation transmutes the entire sensory system into water, a sensory system (e.i. brain, nerves etc) are not present in the Hōzuki while utilizing the hydrification technique. If they were present, they would feel pain from physical techniques. ​

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[Gabby-chan]

You're arguing that...Suigetsu's base bodily structure is water? Which makes him immune to genjutsu because his nerves are water? But...if his nerves are always water and therefore invulnerable to manipulation, then how does he see, smell, taste, hear and feel? Surely his nerves would have to maintain some level of stability to be able to function correctly...? And if so, that leaves them susceptible to manipulation via chakra...

Wouldn't it also make Haku an AWFUL match up? Mei as well?

 

[Natsu Shazneel]

Interesting tiny words sir. I'll try using a microscope to read this thread.

 

[Byakuren]

You're arguing that...Suigetsu's base bodily structure is water? Which makes him immune to genjutsu because his nerves are water? But...if his nerves are always water and therefore invulnerable to manipulation, then how does he see, smell, taste, hear and feel? Surely his nerves would have to maintain some level of stability to be able to function correctly...? And if so, that leaves them susceptible to manipulation via chakra...

Wouldn't it also make Haku an AWFUL match up? Mei as well?

We've no idea in regards to his body composition, we've canonically never seen any Hōzuki Clan member caught in a Genjutsu, merely showing immunity; the best case to preach this with is Gengetsu, who was immune to his clam's wide-scale Genjutsu: Spoiler You must be registered for see images Being hit with foreign chakra used in wide-scale Genjutsu (i.e. Sound Genjutsu - Wide-scale Illusionary Genjutsu) of any kind, be it friend, or foe will always carry out its intended effect. Picking and choosing who you want, and who you don't want to be caught while using wide-scale Genjutsu in impossible, as you can't tell your chakra who/what to target/hit when it's of that scale. Singular Genjutsu can control who the user wishes it to affect. Wide-scale Genjutsu cannot, as it's intended purpose is to affect everything in its range. Gengetsu being immune further proves that Hōzuki are in fact immune to Genjutsu, and that their body composition goes beyond simple human structuring regarding their nerves. This is further proven by Suigetsu being complete liquid, and there being dialogue periods symbolizing speech was in fact possible: You must be registered for see images It'd actually make further sense that Suigetsu himself doesn't possess a human structuring (being Orochimaru's test subject, he was liable to have had his internals experimented on leading to his passive innate liquidation). As well being able to form speech (something impossible without nerve transmission from the brain yet..): Spoiler You must be registered for see images Again, how can you see without eyes? His eye silhouettes are completely liquefied (missing the initial pupils/irises, yet he's seen screaming, void of a neck: Spoiler You must be registered for see images I'm under the impression that Suigetsu actually hasn't any nerves, or brain for that matter as we've seen Chakra is capable of containing necessities to live (i.e. Sasori's core). Sasori possessed no brain, no organs, nothing, yet was living clearly alive through his core which was imbued with chakra. It's been shown multiple times that chakra carries information; it's also been shown that chakra is life energy itself, without chakra plants, animals, and humans would die (as that's what happens when you are fully depleted of chakra i.e. Kakashi telling Sasuke if he used Chidori passed his limit he would/could die). Even further proof is the fact that a unconscious Suigetsu didn't revert back to human form (implying that his initial body composition is in fact water) after being hit by a point blank Bijūdama. Spoiler You must be registered for see images So yeah. Suigetsu's body composition is more than likely nothing, but water containing no nerves, and no organs, but simply chakra.

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[Shigeo Kageyama]

So yeah hozuki clansmen, and women, aren't born as water mate. Their mums don't just, excuse me to say, piss them out. They aren't aliens who were somehow able to figure out how to achieve a human physique. They are innately humans. Before they were water, they were flesh and blood. Their ability to turn into water and back is a Hidden Ability unique to their bloodline. Humans are susceptible to genjutsu. In the same way hozukis are equally susceptible.

An argument can be made that for immunity when in liquid state. Or even when in a transition state but that's the extent of their immunity. They do not have passive immunity to genjutsu.
First of all let's get this straight- Hozukis don't walk around half solid half water. That's a glob. They aren't globs dude. Granted you'll find frames where it looks like that's how they are but I assure you that's not the case. Those frames are of transition states- when they are going from one state to the other.

The fact that Suigetsu is able to see, hear and even taste yogurt means he does have all his sensory stuff intact.

 

[Byakuren]

So yeah hozuki clansmen, and women, aren't born as water mate. Their mums don't just, excuse me to say, piss them out. They aren't aliens who were somehow able to figure out how to achieve a human physique. They are innately humans. Before they were water, they were flesh and blood. Their ability to turn into water and back is a Hidden Ability unique to their bloodline. Humans are susceptible to genjutsu. In the same way hozukis are equally susceptible.

An argument can be made that for immunity when in liquid state. Or even when in a transition state but that's the extent of their immunity. They do not have passive immunity to genjutsu.
First of all let's get this straight- Hozukis don't walk around half solid half water. That's a glob. They aren't globs dude. Granted you'll find frames where it looks like that's how they are but I assure you that's not the case. Those frames are of transition states- when they are going from one state to the other.

The fact that Suigetsu is able to see, hear and even taste yogurt means he does have all his sensory stuff intact.

I've already explained all of this in my post to Gabby. I'm only arguing complete passive immunity for Suigetsu through Orochimaru's experimentation, and portrayal that Suigetsu himself is in fact purely water, and not human. If Suigetsu was in fact human, he would've reverted back to his human state (i.e. brain, organs, all human physicality) while unconscious. Being knocked out would render any manipulation of chakra to be void. That is fact, as you can't consciously manipulate chakra while being passed out/unconscious. Yet Suigetsu was unconscious, and still very much water, or a "glob" as you say.

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[Gabby-chan]

We've no idea in regards to his body composition, we've canonically never seen any Hōzuki Clan member caught in a Genjutsu, merely showing immunity; the best case to preach this with is Gengetsu, who was immune to his clam's wide-scale Genjutsu: Spoiler You must be registered for see images Being hit with foreign chakra used in wide-scale Genjutsu (i.e. Sound Genjutsu - Wide-scale Illusionary Genjutsu) of any kind, be it friend, or foe will always carry out its intended effect. Picking and choosing who you want, and who you don't want to be caught while using wide-scale Genjutsu in impossible, as you can't tell your chakra who/what to target/hit when it's of that scale. Singular Genjutsu can control who the user wishes it to affect. Wide-scale Genjutsu cannot, as it's intended purpose is to affect everything in its range. Gengetsu being immune further proves that Hōzuki are in fact immune to Genjutsu, and that their body composition goes beyond simple human structuring regarding their nerves. This is further proven by Suigetsu being complete liquid, and there being dialogue periods symbolizing speech was in fact possible: You must be registered for see images It'd actually make further sense that Suigetsu himself doesn't possess a human structuring (being Orochimaru's test subject, he was liable to have had his internals experimented on leading to his passive innate liquidation). As well being able to form speech (something impossible without nerve transmission from the brain yet..): Spoiler You must be registered for see images Again, how can you see without eyes? His eye silhouettes are completely liquefied (missing the initial pupils/irises, yet he's seen screaming, void of a neck: Spoiler You must be registered for see images I'm under the impression that Suigetsu actually hasn't any nerves, or brain for that matter as we've seen Chakra is capable of containing necessities to live (i.e. Sasori's core). Sasori possessed no brain, no organs, nothing, yet was living clearly alive through his core which was imbued with chakra. It's been shown multiple times that chakra carries information; it's also been shown that chakra is life energy itself, without chakra plants, animals, and humans would die (as that's what happens when you are fully depleted of chakra i.e. Kakashi telling Sasuke if he used Chidori passed his limit he would/could die). Even further proof is the fact that a unconscious Suigetsu didn't revert back to human form (implying that his initial body composition is in fact water) after being hit by a point blank Bijūdama. Spoiler You must be registered for see images So yeah. Suigetsu's body composition is more than likely nothing, but water containing no nerves, and no organs, but simply chakra.

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Again. This was a lovely post. Nice and...big. But to be able to utilize the five senses while your current and most basic state has no nerves at all is impossible. Even with chakra.

Besides, Edo Tensei are immune to Infinite Tsukiyomi, which is grounds to argue that they are immune to Genjutsu entirely. Might be wrong about this though.

If you're relying on "a Hozuki clan member has never been shown to be put in a genjutsu" as a viable argument, i'm going to have to say that that is insubstantial and simply a coincidence.

 

[Byakuren]

Again. This was a lovely post. Nice and...big. But to be able to utilize the five senses while your current and most basic state has no nerves at all is impossible. Even with chakra.

Besides, Edo Tensei are immune to Infinite Tsukiyomi, which is grounds to argue that they are immune to Genjutsu entirely. Might be wrong about this though.

If you're relying on "a Hozuki clan member has never been shown to be put in a genjutsu" as a viable argument, i'm going to have to say that that is insubstantial and simply a coincidence.

Incorrect. Sasori is a prime example of this. Puppets have no nerves, and cannot smell, taste, experience the feeling of touch, hear, and see. Yet Sasori is capable of such. Why? Chakra. That, and because this is Naruto; chakra is literally the answer for everything. But that's beside the point; Sasori is capable of such, which gives grounds to Suigetsu being capable of such. As I said to the user above you: Being knocked out would render any manipulation of chakra to be void. That is fact, as you can't consciously manipulate chakra while being passed out/unconscious. Yet Suigetsu was unconscious, and still very much water, or a "glob" as you say. This is a fact.

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[Gabby-chan]

Incorrect. Sasori is a prime example of this. Puppets have no nerves, and cannot smell, taste, experience the feeling of touch, hear, and see. Yet Sasori is capable of such. Why? Chakra. That, and because this is Naruto; chakra is literally the answer for everything. But that's beside the point; Sasori capable of such, which gives grounds to Suigetsu being capable of such. As I said to the user above you: Being knocked out would render any manipulation of chakra to be void. That is fact, as you can't consciously manipulate chakra while being passed out/unconscious. Yet Suigetsu was unconscious, and still very much water, or a "glob" as you say. This is a fact.

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A. You made some mistakes with your post. That glob part was suppose to be for someone else, I believe.

B. Sasori isn't entirely a puppet. His head is still living. He isn't immune to Genjutsu as he has a brain up there. Saying "chakra" is very inadequate and not a sufficient answer for certain things. While this is a fictional anime, it still conforms to some level of real world logic or even hypothetical science fiction logic in the process of which things work.

But speaking hypothetically of course, if Suigetsu didn't have a brain or any other nerves or organs, he would just be a mass of chakra. And as a mass of chakra, he simply wouldn't be able to sustain himself.

 

[RedRobin]

A. You made some mistakes with your post. That glob part was suppose to be for someone else, I believe.

B. Sasori isn't entirely a puppet. His head is still living. He isn't immune to Genjutsu as he has a brain up there. Saying "chakra" is very inadequate and not a sufficient answer for certain things. While this is a fictional anime, it still conforms to some level of real world logic or even hypothetical science fiction logic in the process of which things work.

But speaking hypothetically of course, if Suigetsu didn't have a brain or any other nerves or organs, he would just be a mass of chakra. And as a mass of chakra, he simply wouldn't be able to sustain himself.

Sasori's entire body is a puppet. His head included. The only living thing is his core which connects to a puppet body and allows him to take consciousness there. Unless you explain how that happens you cannot guarantee he can be put under a genjustu.

 

[Byakuren]

A. You made some mistakes with your post. That glob part was suppose to be for someone else, I believe.

B. Sasori isn't entirely a puppet. His head is still living. He isn't immune to Genjutsu as he has a brain up there. Saying "chakra" is very inadequate and not a sufficient answer for certain things. While this is a fictional anime, it still conforms to some level of real world logic or even hypothetical science fiction logic in the process of which things work.

But speaking hypothetically of course, if Suigetsu didn't have a brain or any other nerves or organs, he would just be a mass of chakra. And as a mass of chakra, he simply wouldn't be able to sustain himself.

No it was a post I sent to the person who posted above you, and it pertained to the same thing you were insinuating (that Suigetsu isn't innately water/has nerves/is human). If he was human, while he was unconscious he'd return back to his physical body, yet being exhausted/defeated/unconscious he stayed in liquid form. This blatantly signifies his base body components are in fact simply put: Water. As for the Sasori bit RedRobin, the poster below has answered for me. Sasori's whole body is indeed a puppet (aside from his core). He has no brain, he has no heart, he has no organs, he has nothing. His conscious is merely inside of his core. So my fact sticks. Incorrect, he'd be water, and chakra. You assume as those components he'd be unable to sustain himself, where in the manga is this portrayed? If ones conscious canonically can be transferred into a tiny core inside of a puppet, one can undoubtedly can be composed of completely water.

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Sasori's entire body is a puppet. His head included. The only living thing is his core which connects to a puppet body and allows him to take consciousness there. Unless you explain how that happens you cannot guarantee he can be put under a genjustu.

Spot on.

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[Gabby-chan]

No it was a post I sent to the person who posted above you, and it pertained to the same thing you were insinuating (that Suigetsu isn't innately water/has nerves/is human). If he was human, while he was unconscious he'd return back to his physical body, yet being exhausted/defeated/unconscious he stayed in liquid form. This blatantly signifies his base body components are in fact simply put: Water. As for the Sasori bit RedRobin, the poster below has answered for me. Sasori's whole body is indeed a puppet (aside from his core). He has no brain, he has no heart, he has no organs, he has nothing. His conscious is merely inside of his core. So my fact sticks. Incorrect, he'd be water, and chakra. You assume as those components he'd be unable to sustain himself, where in the manga is this portrayed? If ones conscious canonically can be transferred into a tiny core inside of a puppet, one can undoubtedly can be composed of completely water.

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Spot on.

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I concede to the argument concerning Sasori. My response concerning it would be too reaching.

But I still stand by my argument concerning Suigetsu. Under the circumstances that he is entirely water, he has no core, nothing to maintain his consciousness or keep his senses functioning. Chakra can send information from one point to another and even transmit consciousness from one person to another. But still, there is always a biotic sender and reciever with these kind of things, one that posseses something (be it a core or brain) capable of processing and translating this information or consciousness to something coherent.


Besides, saying that chakra and water are enough to sustain life is a bunch of malarkey. Manga already shows us that to have chakra isn't just enough to create life. A physical body is needed to contain that chakra. And even then, life needs to be given to that physical body containing that chakra. Apparently Sasori's source of life is his core, but Suigetsu has no source for anything whatsoever. It is impossible for him to be a self-sufficient and self-sustaining organi--can't even call him an organism because apparently he has no organs--- entity, simply through the use of chakra. I will not accept this.

 

[Gabby-chan]

I have a headache :sdo: too much thinking.