[Discussion] Can Whitebeard beat Mihawk?

[chopstickchakra]

So Zoro, someone who is undeniably a swordsman, during the Skypeia arc...

If he went 1v1 against Enel, a logia DF user, which would work better and be more effective?

Zoro's primary fighting style, his 3 swords?

Or a rubber stick? Not his primary fighting style. At all. Something he never uses. Ever.



You want your sense of logic to be 100% correct.. but it's not. You want to claim that a swordsman can only fight and be as good as his sword/swordplay against every opponent. And that's simply absurd.

There is no rule on this earth, and especially not a fictional world, that someone can not choose to be something primarily, every day, yet be purely better at something else. Or have an equal level of skill in multiple things..

Like come on bro, are you serious?


Debating for the sake of debating is one thing.. but denying simple logic and facts while doing so is just ridiculous.

@ Like Michael Jordan playing Baseball. For awhile he was primarily(and only) a baseball player but his basketball skills still dwarfed his baseball skills.

 

[Punk Hazard]

So Zoro, someone who is undeniably a swordsman, during the Skypeia arc...

If he went 1v1 against Enel, a logia DF user, which would work better and be more effective?

Zoro's primary fighting style, his 3 swords?

Or a rubber stick? Not his primary fighting style. At all. Something he never uses. Ever.

Neither would be effective.

You want your sense of logic to be 100% correct.. but it's not. You want to claim that a swordsman can only fight and be as good as his sword/swordplay against every opponent. And that's simply absurd.

You're free to think so.

There is no rule on this earth, and especially not a fictional world, that someone can not choose to be something primarily, every day, yet be purely better at something else. Or have an equal level of skill in multiple things..

If he's better at something else, then it's not his primary skill. Repetition, while it can be an indicator of primary combat style, doesn't always mean primary.

pri·ma·ry
ˈprīˌmerē,ˈprīm(ə)rē/Submit
adjective
1.
of chief importance; principal.
"the government's primary aim is to see significant reductions in unemployment"
synonyms: main, chief, key, prime, central, principal, foremost, first, first-line, most important, predominant, paramount; informalnumber-one
"our primary role"

Primary=supreme output of ability.

Debating for the sake of debating is one thing.. but denying simple logic and facts while doing so is just ridiculous.

Everything being stated are opinions. What you have said about Mihawk's title is nothing more than your opinion and conjecture. Don't kid yourself.

 

[Luther]

Yes, very easy in my opinion. It will take the whole warlords to beat or match white-beard on equal footing. This match up is a joke.

 

[LBeezy]

@ Like Michael Jordan playing Baseball. For awhile he was primarily(and only) a baseball player but his basketball skills still dwarfed his baseball skills.

Lmao! Wow! Damn that's crazy!! I legit started typing the SAME Michael Jordan reference as you but I didn't want my post to be too long.. lol that's funny man, great minds think alike..

Neither would be effective.

Hmm.. interesting.. How did Luffy beat Enel again?

You're free to think so.


If he's better at something else, then it's not his primary skill. Repetition, while it can be an indicator of primary combat style, doesn't always mean primary.

pri·ma·ry
ˈprīˌmerē,ˈprīm(ə)rē/Submit
adjective
1.
of chief importance; principal.
"the government's primary aim is to see significant reductions in unemployment"
synonyms: main, chief, key, prime, central, principal, foremost, first, first-line, most important, predominant, paramount; informalnumber-one
"our primary role"

Primary=supreme output of ability.

Lol okay bro.. you obviously have no counter to what I'm saying.. you're in love with the art of debate.. and I understand that.. but this is just next level ignorance.

Everything being stated are opinions. What you have said about Mihawk's title is nothing more than your opinion and conjecture. Don't kid yourself.

A lot of opinions have been said..

Mihawk's title is not one of those "opinions".. it's 100% fact that his title is WSS and that it only refers to being a swordsman. If it's Sword vs Sword, Mihawk's title implies that there is no one better. So Mihawk > anyone in swordsmanship. What you don't understand, or just don't want to admit, (for whatever reason) is that another swordsman can shoot Mihawk in the head with an average level of knowledge on how to pull a trigger and can kill him. Another swordsman can physically beat him to death. Another swordsman can strike him with a f*cking meteor. Lol like bruh... Mihawk can lose to another swordsman as long as that other swordsman has other means of attacking.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Hmm.. interesting.. How did Luffy beat Enel again?

A combination of rubber, speed, and strength that Zoro didn't have at the time.

Lol okay bro.. you obviously have no counter to what I'm saying.. you're in love with the art of debate.. and I understand that.. but this is just next level ignorance.

I provide the literal definition of the world, and you call me ignorant for the sake of debate. Sure, kid.

A lot of opinions have been said..

Mihawk's title is not one of those "opinions".. it's 100% fact that his title is WSS and that it only refers to being a swordsman.

You don't have to use only swordplay to be a swordsman. Mihawk being better than a swordsman who has equal power in DF, swordplay, and Haki is still him being better than a swordsman.

You simply can't grasp such a simple point, or you cling to your opinion. Either way, you're not stating facts, you're giving your interpretation. Nothing you say will change that.

If it's Sword vs Sword, Mihawk's title implies that there is no one better. So Mihawk > anyone in swordsmanship. What you don't understand, or just don't want to admit, (for whatever reason) is that another swordsman can shoot Mihawk in the head with an average level of knowledge on how to pull a trigger and can kill him. Another swordsman can physically beat him to death. Another swordsman can strike him with a f*cking meteor. Lol like bruh... Mihawk can lose to another swordsman as long as that other swordsman has other means of attacking.

Nope, because to be a swordsman, swordplay has to be a PRIMARY part of your effectiveness in combat. PRIMARY, meaning first and foremost. PRIMARY meaning supreme. PRIMARY meaning paramount. Meaning it produces your BEST combat ability. This doesn't mean your martial arts skills have to be worst than your swordplay, it just means your martial arts skills isn't better than Mihawk's swordplay. And that includes both parties enhancing themselves with Haki and DFs and whatevers.

 

[LBeezy]

A combination of rubber, speed, and strength that Zoro didn't have at the time.

So your answer should've been the rubber stick. The rubber stick would be more effective than a regular sword. Thus proving my point. Thus proving you wrong.

I provide the literal definition of the world, and you call me ignorant for the sake of debate. Sure, kid.




You don't have to use only swordplay to be a swordsman. Mihawk being better than a swordsman who has equal power in DF, swordplay, and Haki is still him being better than a swordsman.

No one is saying that this is impossible. That's what you're not getting.. Mihawk can be better. Mihawk can be beaten.

That's the point.

That's why when you say this vvvv

You simply can't grasp such a simple point, or you cling to your opinion. Either way, you're not stating facts, you're giving your interpretation. Nothing you say will change that.

It's backwards.

You are the one saying that Mihawk's title guarantees him the win against any swordsman.

Which is wrong.

Another swordsman can defeat him if they have other ways of attacking besides swordsmanship.

That's the exact reason why his title is WSS and not "World's Strongest at anything and everything"...

And that my friend is a fact. Not my "interpretation".

Nope, because to be a swordsman, swordplay has to be a PRIMARY part of your effectiveness in combat. PRIMARY, meaning first and foremost. PRIMARY meaning supreme. PRIMARY meaning paramount. Meaning it produces your BEST combat ability. This doesn't mean your martial arts skills have to be worst than your swordplay, it just means your martial arts skills isn't better than Mihawk's swordplay. And that includes both parties enhancing themselves with Haki and DFs and whatevers.

All of this is false. None of that is true or logical.. that is something you made up in your head for whatever reason to back up the character known as Mihawk.. when Oda himself, the creator, never said any of that.. instead said exactly what I've been saying this whole time - "World's Strongest Swordsman" not "World's Strongest at anything and everything".

 

[Punk Hazard]

So your answer should've been the rubber stick. The rubber stick would be more effective than a regular sword. Thus proving my point. Thus proving you wrong.

Nope, because Zoro wouldn't have been able to hit Enel with it, so it's just as effective as a sword in his hands.

No one is saying that this is impossible. That's what you're not getting.. Mihawk can be better. Mihawk can be beaten.

Not by swordsmen, he can't.

You are the one saying that Mihawk's title guarantees him the win against any swordsman.

That is my interpretation. Just like you, I'm stating my opinion. Neither of are stating for a fact what Mihawk's WSS title means, you're the only one who has actually deluded himself into thinking it's a fact.

Another swordsman can defeat him if they have other ways of attacking besides swordsmanship.

Says you.

That's the exact reason why his title is WSS and not "World's Strongest at anything and everything"...

Because there are non-swordsman stronger than him is why, not because there are swordsman that can beat him by switching to guns or Haki or martial arts.

And that my friend is a fact. Not my "interpretation".

It's interpretation because there's nothing in the manga that supports this beyond a reasonable doubt.

All of this is false. None of that is true or logical.. that is something you made up in your head for whatever reason

This sums your interpretation up to a tee, minus the "false" part.

to back up the character known as Mihawk.. when Oda himself, the creator, never said any of that

The opposite has never been stated either. Hence why it's all interpretation.

instead said exactly what I've been saying this whole time - "World's Strongest Swordsman" not "World's Strongest at anything and everything".

Oda has never stated that WSS applies only to duels where only swords are used.

 

[LBeezy]

Nope, because Zoro wouldn't have been able to hit Enel with it, so it's just as effective as a sword in his hands.

It would be more effective.

Thus proving you wrong.

Not by swordsmen, he can't.


That is my interpretation. Just like you, I'm stating my opinion. Neither of are stating for a fact what Mihawk's WSS title means, you're the only one who has actually deluded himself into thinking it's a fact.


Says you.

It is a fact because it is his title. Lol how do you not understand that? It is what the title means. Only you have a false interpretation.

What I'm saying is backed up by Oda himself, the one who decided to give Mihawk that title.

What you're saying is mostly just your own imagination.

Because there are non-swordsman stronger than him is why, not because there are swordsman that can beat him by switching to guns or Haki or martial arts.

His title still doesn't include that though.. it only speaks on swordsmanship. And. That's. It.

It's interpretation because there's nothing in the manga that supports this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Manga says facts.

This sums your interpretation up to a tee, minus the "false" part.


The opposite has never been stated either. Hence why it's all interpretation.

It's what the title means.

Oda has never stated that WSS applies only to duels where only swords are used.

Lol

By Oda wording the title that way, it is him saying that.. lol... anything with Swordsmanship Mihawk is supposed to be the strongest in the world. Add anything else that isn't a sword and the title is no longer a guarantee for Mihawk to be better than anyone.

That is exactly what the title means.

 

[Punk Hazard]

It would be more effective.

Thus proving you wrong.

In Zoro's hands? No it would not. Swords or rubber stick would accomplish the same thing: Nothing. Reasons might be different, but it's still the same outcome.

It is a fact because it is his title. Lol how do you not understand that? It is what the title means. Only you have a false interpretation.

Nothing in the manga backs this up.

What I'm saying is backed up by Oda himself, the one who decided to give Mihawk that title.

Where? Where in the manga has Oda backed up the meaning of WSS is that he's the best at swordplay skill, and not that he defeats anyone who's a swordsman?

What you're saying is mostly just your own imagination.

We have both been doing this.

His title still doesn't include that though.. it only speaks on swordsmanship. And. That's. It.

Manga says nothing of the sort.

Manga says facts.

Where?

It's what the title means.

Chapter and page please?

By Oda wording the title that way, it is him saying that.. lol... anything with Swordsmanship Mihawk is supposed to be the strongest in the world. Add anything else that isn't a sword and the title is no longer a guarantee for Mihawk to be better than anyone.

Both of our interpretations fall under the wording of the title.

 

[HashiraMadara]

I've already explained how one method can be stronger but not used as a primary method at the same time, stop trying to pass off how you feel a fight should be represented as fact.

The irony

 

[HashiraMadara]

I've already explained how one method can be stronger but not used as a primary method at the same time, stop trying to pass off how you feel a fight should be represented as fact.

~To the other point even if they had an auxiliary power stronger than their sword but still for whatever used their sword first and foremost they'd still be a swordsman. If I'm great with a sword but Amazing with a gun(never miss, hit from ridiculous distance and angles, ability with multiple guns etc) and don't use my gun but in the rarest of occasions(Life and death moments only) and instead fight with my sword until the most dire of situations where I need my best then I would be seen as a swordsman because that would be my primary fighting method despite actually being better with a gun.

Also it doesn't have to be superior to their swordplay to get them an advantage over a swordsman. If you switch from a sword to a spear you gain an advantage from the range, you can be weaker with your spear skills but it can still perform better against a sword then your sword would. Just because it can doesn't mean it will but saying it absolutely can't is a logical fallacy.

Their battles were all out and legendary according to Whitebeard. A man who is a gigantic shade thrower :|. They echoed the entire grandline :sdo: Are you blind???

The fact that Whitebeard references to it :sdo: means Shanks was all out whether he has a hidden power or not :|

 

[chopstickchakra]

The irony

You should probably bother yourself to highlight the rest of it rather than just the part you want to use to support your stance. AS FACT. I've never claimed my side AS FACT, that's you guys. I've admitted it's my understanding of WSS that leads this discussion and until we get more from Oda neither can claim how a fight with Mihawk will play out as fact. I never said Mihawk will absolutely lose a future fight against an opponent whose primary attack method is swords, I've been saying I don't agree with your blanket definition of WSS.

Their battles were all out and legendary according to Whitebeard. A man who is a gigantic shade thrower :|. They echoed the entire grandline :sdo: Are you blind???

The fact that Whitebeard references to it :sdo: means Shanks was all out whether he has a hidden power or not :|

Adding emoji in random spots doesn't make your argument any stronger. The fact that WB referenced their fights doesn't MEAN Shanks went all out that's your interpretation of his words and you're trying to claim it as fact. Again. "The irony" ~ Hashiramadara

 

[A v i]

I'm saying the former and I'm saying we can't know who's actually all around stronger between the two until we see some top tier fight from either/both. Mihawk is undoubtedly above him in sword but I don't agree with you guys' interpretation of his title and it meaning he can absolutely automatically overcome an opponents other fighting methods just because he could best them with his sword. Shanks may not be able to beat him but that doesn't mean someone can't, we're all getting too hung up on using Shanks as a specific example when I'm not claiming to know as fact anyone in particular can do it I just don't believe the title closes the door to the possibility as some do.

Only thing that exists in OP is whether or not someone is stronger than the person in question regardless of how they fight. If Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, "a swordsman" nothing can stop him from being stronger than a sniper as strong as him. That's how things work in one piece. There is no such a thing as he's stronger only as a swordsman and inferior when the other things count as long as the guy in question is primarily a swordsman. You're mixing things from real world with OP world which is where the problem arises.

We certainly have people who're proficient in swordsmanship and still do not include themselves among swordsman with the best available example being Kizaru. But our imaginary "pure sword fights" doesn't happen in the manga, they fight using every available option they have as a means to fight. Was Kizaru hopeless when he's fighting a manga who primarily fights with a sword? Or Do you think Rayleigh would have been outclassed had Kizaru choose to use his devils attacks instead of a light sword? "No" is the answer for both the questions. People in OP can fight about any kind of opponent as long as the opponent's fighting capacity remains within their reach. Mihawk isn't just stronger than all swordsman in the world, he's also stronger than all kinds of fighters with inferior fighting capacity.

There is no way to interpret a "Title" other than considering the holder to be the strongest. I agree that there are things that may enable a person to hold the "title" even when he's no longer qualified enough to keep the title. But nothing of that sort's been implied or hinted in the case of Mihawk. In One piece, You're considered the strongest only when your overall fighting capacity is deemed to be unparalleled. So the title is enough to warrant victory, in almost all cases. Mihawk can't be the strongest solely because of a trait or two. He should be "overall" superior to any other not just in one way or two. It's the same as how Luffy's offensive capabilities are superior to Doflamingo's, yet he's still weaker than him. Kaido can't be beaten in a one on one fight, It was the same with Whitebeard"at least when he was truly the strongest", Sengoku implied pretty much the same thing about Roger-Shiki. That's simply how "Titles" work in OP.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Only thing that exists in OP is whether or not someone is stronger than the person in question regardless of how they fight. If Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, "a swordsman" nothing can stop him from being stronger than a sniper as strong as him. That's how things work in one piece. There is no such a thing as he's stronger only as a swordsman and inferior when the other things count as long as the guy in question is primarily a swordsman. You're mixing things from real world with OP world which is where the problem arises.

We certainly have people who're proficient in swordsmanship and still do not include themselves among swordsman with the best available example being Kizaru. But our imaginary "pure sword fights" doesn't happen in the manga, they fight using every available option they have as a means to fight. Was Kizaru hopeless when he's fighting a manga who primarily fights with a sword? Or Do you think Rayleigh would have been outclassed had Kizaru choose to use his devils attacks instead of a light sword? "No" is the answer for both the questions. People in OP can fight about any kind of opponent as long as the opponent's fighting capacity remains within their reach. Mihawk isn't just stronger than all swordsman in the world, he's also stronger than all kinds of fighters with inferior fighting capacity.

There is no way to interpret a "Title" other than considering the holder to be the strongest. I agree that there are things that may enable a person to hold the "title" even when he's no longer qualified enough to keep the title. But nothing of that sort's been implied or hinted in the case of Mihawk. In One piece, You're considered the strongest only when your overall fighting capacity is deemed to be unparalleled. So the title is enough to warrant victory, in almost all cases. Mihawk can't be the strongest solely because of a trait or two. He should be "overall" superior to any other not just in one way or two. It's the same as how Luffy's offensive capabilities are superior to Doflamingo's, yet he's still weaker than him. Kaido can't be beaten in a one on one fight, It was the same with Whitebeard"at least when he was truly the strongest", Sengoku implied pretty much the same thing about Roger-Shiki. That's simply how "Titles" work in OP.

We can't say yet with proof only conjecture based on personal interpretations of the title who is stronger. Also Zoro only fights with swords and Mihawk seemingly does too. There are fighters who only use their swords. Anyway I'll be honest I only skimmed this for this reply I'll re-read later and adjust if needed.

 

[A v i]

We can't say yet with proof only conjecture based on personal interpretations of the title who is stronger. Also Zoro only fights with swords and Mihawk seemingly does too. There are fighters who only use their swords. Anyway I'll be honest I only skimmed this for this reply I'll re-read later and adjust if needed.

How can there be any room for interpretations when the manga made it explicit that the holder of a "Title"is superior to anyone who gets encompassed by that title. Who wins in a fight b/w Kaido and Shanks? Kaido, B/w Akainu and Kaido?Once again Kaido. It's that simple. Zoro uses haki to boost his strength, you consider haki it to be an outlier, don't you?

I am kind of busy too. So I probably won't be able to respond for a while. So it's cool.

 

[HashiraMadara]

You should probably bother yourself to highlight the rest of it rather than just the part you want to use to support your stance. AS FACT. I've never claimed my side AS FACT, that's you guys. I've admitted it's my understanding of WSS that leads this discussion and until we get more from Oda neither can claim how a fight with Mihawk will play out as fact. I never said Mihawk will absolutely lose a future fight against an opponent whose primary attack method is swords, I've been saying I don't agree with your blanket definition of WSS.



Adding emoji in random spots doesn't make your argument any stronger. The fact that WB referenced their fights doesn't MEAN Shanks went all out that's your interpretation of his words and you're trying to claim it as fact. Again. "The irony" ~ Hashiramadara

Your denial is beyond my hope

 

[chopstickchakra]

Your denial is beyond my hope

"the irony :|" ~ Hashiramadara

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