Obviously you are wrong here if Lee can't defeat Neji, because the only options there are a block or a dodge. If Neji can't do either, he can't win, but we know he can win so he would either be able to dodge or block. So there's really no arguing here for you.
Either a block or a dodge and then an attack with Gentle Fist.
Which is my point , because if Neji blocks then he still gets the from kick and is staggered and sent flying due to Lee's physical power/speed while using the initial Gate and Lee can exploit this and continue to pummel at him using super speed Taijutsu.
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-Now if he evades it then it means CE Neji should be able to dodge weightless Lees normal Taijutsu with not much effort seeing that when using the initial Gate while constantly running in circles , he makes it so his next attack is non linear and aided by speed/power enormously faster than normal weightless combat speed taijutsu , pushing his stats close to his physical limit.
Ok, then I'll agree that their raw speed alone is enough to outspeed Gaara's sand defense.
Because Kimimaro's shown movements had nothing to do with raw movement speed, just reaction speed (still speed) and everything else you mentioned. Doesn't mean that Lee is quite a bit faster in raw speed, that is unless we aren't interpreting the DB correctly, or unless the DB is flat out wrong, in which case there's no reason to use it at all for any arguments.
The DB likely takes overall speed like combat speed into its gauges , with Prelims Neji having a (3) w/o Byakugan , which when applied jumps his stats to a level where he can deal with Weightless Lees combat speed (4) and initial Gated Lee then easily beat him.
-Another example is Haku who has a (4) in Combat Speed , even with that score Haku was still outperformed by ZA Sasuke due to his Combat Speed and most of all Sasuke's Dexterity in CQC which earned him a (2.5) in Taijutsu while Haku had a (1) , so even tho Haku had the higher speed stat his dexterity was much lower than Sasuke's which lead to him getting outperformed in CQC.
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-Sasuke's combat speed after training became a (3.5) w/o Sharingan meaning with Shringan his combat speed should be above Weightless Lees (4) when considering increased reactions and reflex.
-Kimimaro's Combat/Body Speed would include his raw Physical Agility earning him a 4.5 and his Taijutsu Dexterity/skill earns him a (5) , while Lee's combat/body speed without opening the 1st Gate earns him a (4) . I think Taijutsu stats plays into Dexterity in combat but im iffy as fck when it comes DB stats.
Compared to regular hand to hand Gaara's attacks are widespread, that's the point I'm trying to make here. And there's no reason why he'd be left open when he still has sand in his gourd that automatically reacts to incoming attacks.
I agree with this and never missed ur point , but Kimi's aim was to cover distance and get close , he already knew of Gaara's defense yet he opted to launch projectiles with hopes of trying to outpace and/or breach that defense from a distance.
-Gaara has to have his sights on the enemy in order to focus his sand attacks on them , Kimi was forced to use his agility in order to avoid the sand in tight quarters but weightless lee who is much faster than the sand itself would likely have no need to do this since his running speed is at a level where he could actually outpace the attacking sand itself rather than simply avoid it using agility.
DB scores put Kimimaro ahead of Lee in terms of raw unenhanced speed. So either DB takes overall speed into account (reaction speed and movement speed) when making their judgements or it's simply wrong.
It likely does but more so along the lines of combat speed , because i dont think raw running speed is wat gives the score seeing that Neji has a (4) compared to Sasuke's (3.5) and the same with Haku who is no doubt much slower in running speed compared to CE2 Sasuke.
Yeah, if it were the same Gaara from the Chuunin Exams it wouldn't have been effective, but it isn't so being as fast as Lee=/=Being able to outspeed SRA Gaara's sand.
Agreed but Lee made no notes about Gaara's sand being much faster than he remembered and i seriously doubt that Gaara's sand speed would've went from being unable to catch weighted Lee in the CE to being faster than weightless Lee in SRA without any such notes made about such a obvious jump in speed especially with Lee himself present to as the perfect person to give that note.
-So Lee should still be able to clear distance without much worry from Gaara's sand attacks , only needing to worry about getting passed the defensive variation.
No, not after looking at feats and DB. Sasuke is faster than Neji in terms of movement speed by feats during the Chunnin Exams as he can copy Lee's speed, and even his DB score is higher than Neji's during that timeframe. So there's no way his actual agility is higher. Reaction speed though? Neji has the advantage here since he can react to 5G Lee somewhat, but is the gap that large? Probably not.
Yes Sasuke is faster in movement/running speed but actual combat speed with Taijutsu Dexterity is a different matter since Neji's combat speed w/Byakugan would allow him to easily beat 1st Gated Lee in CQC who's combat speed should be above Neji's but since Lee only dreamed of beating him it seems this wasn't the case so likely Neji was simply much more nimble/agile in tight movements which ties into combat speed in tight quarters.
-I classify Reaction speed as Mental and Physical Agility , which i why i put CE Neji above CE2 Sasuke in that regard.
So yes, Neji would have an easier time dodging Lee than Sasuke would, but it's not like Sasuke would have an easy time dodging Lee himself so this doesn't really prove that SRA Neji has little problem avoiding that level of speed in CQC. Neji being able to evade=/=Neji being able to evade with no problems.
Agreed but seeing that SRA Neji's Taijutsu dexterity went from 3.5 to 4.5 and his Combat speed went from 3 w/o Byakugan to 4 , i could see him avoiding that level of speed without much problem.
-Take his evasion of Kido's daggers for example , to be able to dodge each and everyone of them in a confined and tight space requires extreme mental and physical agility/nimbleness since the daggers are constantly coming at him with zero lag time forcing him to continuously dodge in wat would be millisecond intervals between each dodge which would require extreme agility and nimbleness.
-Now if he evades it then it means CE Neji should be able to dodge weightless Lees normal Taijutsu with not much effort seeing that when using the initial Gate while constantly running in circles , he makes it so his next attack is non linear and aided by speed/power enormously faster than normal weightless combat speed taijutsu , pushing his stats close to his physical limit.
Stop. :lol Evading a charge then KICK from Weightless Lee=/=Evading all of or most of Weightless Lee's attacks in straight up hand to hand. Not sure what you aren't getting about that. And the bold doesn't make sense. Him running around in a circle doesn't change the fact that his attack is linear, it only makes it harder for said opponent to react to the attack because of what he does beforehand. He's no faster than he is normally w/o the weights because the 1st gate increases physical strength, not speed IIRC. Speed increases begin once 4G is opened.
Sasuke's is only "About" the same speed as normal Lee , not the exact same speed , so his 3.5 makes sense here imo.
Lmao about the same speed=/=.5 tier difference between the two. That doesn't make sense. Sasuke's speed is close enough for Gai to say it's about the same so there's no way he'd be half a tier below Lee in speed.
The DB likely takes overall speed like combat speed into its gauges , with Prelims Neji having a (3) w/o Byakugan , which when applied jumps his stats to a level where he can deal with Weightless Lees combat speed (4) and initial Gated Lee then easily beat him.
-Another example is Haku who has a (4) in Combat Speed , even with that score Haku was still outperformed by ZA Sasuke due to his Combat Speed and most of all Sasuke's Dexterity in CQC which earned him a (2.5) in Taijutsu while Haku had a (1) , so even tho Haku had the higher speed stat his dexterity was much lower than Sasuke's which lead to him getting outperformed in CQC.
I can agree with this interpretation of the stats, but combat speed isn't overall speed because combat speed doesn't take movement speed into account. Overall speed would be reaction speed and movement speed and striking speed tied together.
Dexterity? There is no dexterity state. Taijutsu stat is Taijutsu skill. Nothing more, nothing less. Haku is shit in Taijutsu that's why Sasuke would spank him in hand to hand despite being faster than him.
-Sasuke's combat speed after training became a (3.5) w/o Sharingan meaning with Shringan his combat speed should be above Weightless Lees (4) when considering increased reactions and reflex.
-Kimimaro's Combat/Body Speed would include his raw Physical Agility earning him a 4.5 and his Taijutsu Dexterity/skill earns him a (5) , while Lee's combat/body speed without opening the 1st Gate earns him a (4) . I think Taijutsu stats plays into Dexterity in combat but im iffy as fck when it comes DB stats.
Nah. Taijutsu just measures Taijutsu, which would be how good you are at said art. Dexterity ties into speed. Though there is a definition of Dexterity that would mean skill.
I agree with this and never missed ur point , but Kimi's aim was to cover distance and get close , he already knew of Gaara's defense yet he opted to launch projectiles with hopes of trying to outpace and/or breach that defense from a distance.
Yes, because Gaara's sand prevented him from getting close. Not because his own fighting style prevents him from getting close. That doesn't make sense.
-Gaara has to have his sights on the enemy in order to focus his sand attacks on them , Kimi was forced to use his agility in order to avoid the sand in tight quarters but weightless lee who is much faster than the sand itself would likely have no need to do this since his running speed is at a level where he could actually outpace the attacking sand itself rather than simply avoid it using agility.
No. Weightless Lee is far faster than CE Gaara's sand. This is not Chunnin Exams Gaara.
It likely does but more so along the lines of combat speed , because i dont think raw running speed is wat gives the score seeing that Neji has a (4) compared to Sasuke's (3.5) and the same with Haku who is no doubt much slower in running speed compared to CE2 Sasuke.
Explain this, I'm curious how you reached that conclusion.
Agreed but Lee made no notes about Gaara's sand being much faster than he remembered and i seriously doubt that Gaara's sand speed would've went from being unable to catch weighted Lee in the CE to being faster than weightless Lee in SRA without any such notes made about such a obvious jump in speed especially with Lee himself present to as the perfect person to give that note.
-So Lee should still be able to clear distance without much worry from Gaara's sand attacks , only needing to worry about getting passed the defensive variation.
Yes Sasuke is faster in movement/running speed but actual combat speed with Taijutsu Dexterity is a different matter since Neji's combat speed w/Byakugan would allow him to easily beat 1st Gated Lee in CQC who's combat speed should be above Neji's but since Lee only dreamed of beating him it seems this wasn't the case so likely Neji was simply much more nimble/agile in tight movements which ties into combat speed in tight quarters.
No, it really isn't. Combat speed has to do with reaction speed, which Sasuke is easily superior in. Neji only has the advantage when it comes to striking speed. Neji was shown to be that agile because he was just that fast in comparison to who or what he was fighting.
-I classify Reaction speed as Mental and Physical Agility , which i why i put CE Neji above CE2 Sasuke in that regard.
Agreed but seeing that SRA Neji's Taijutsu dexterity went from 3.5 to 4.5 and his Combat speed went from 3 w/o Byakugan to 4 , i could see him avoiding that level of speed without much problem.
Taijutsu stat is skill, so that's irrelevant to what he can evade or what he can't evade as that's not speed. And going from 3 to 4 w/o Byakugan puts him on a level above Lee w/o Byakugan, but because his reactions jump up, not his actual speed, and there's no evidence his reactions jump up to a point where he can easily avoid Lee.
-Take his evasion of Kido's daggers for example , to be able to dodge each and everyone of them in a confined and tight space requires extreme mental and physical agility/nimbleness since the daggers are constantly coming at him with zero lag time.
Lol don't start with this feat again. You don't know what level of speed it takes to dodge them so saying "extreme" is based on nothing because there is no speed feat proving that they are that fast. Just throwing this out there as an amazing feat because of the number of things he was able to dodge doesn't make sense.
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Lmao about the same speed=/=.5 tier difference between the two. That doesn't make sense. Sasuke's speed is close enough for Gai to say it's about the same so there's no way he'd be half a tier below Lee in speed.
Lol, no, it clearly isn't. Basically the same speed means that for all intents and purposes they are the same speed. Almost the same speed means that Sasuke is inferior, but close, but not close enough to put them on par.
Lol, no, it clearly isn't. Basically the same speed means that for all intents and purposes they are the same speed. Almost the same speed means that Sasuke is inferior, but close, but not close enough to put them on par.
Scan itself says practically the same speed , meaning almost , nearly, very nearly, not far from, close to , about or approaching which makes sense given his 3.5 imo especially with wat we discussed earlier about there being higher tiers of speed in similar stat points , putting CE2 Sasuke as a higher tier 3.5 which makes sense for it to be close to Lee's (4) but not quite at the same stat.
Stop. :lol Evading a charge then KICK from Weightless Lee=/=Evading all of or most of Weightless Lee's attacks in straight up hand to hand. Not sure what you aren't getting about that. And the bold doesn't make sense. Him running around in a circle doesn't change the fact that his attack is linear, it only makes it harder for said opponent to react to the attack because of what he does beforehand. He's no faster than he is normally w/o the weights because the 1st gate increases physical strength, not speed IIRC. Speed increases begin once 4G is opened.
I meant the attack isn't as straight forward seeing that he's constantly moving in a circle to make it harder for the enemy to react just as u said , since he's not running straight into the enemy in a normal linear method but is instead trying to mask his attack using blinding speed unlike a conventional straight forward attack or combo attack.
-I dont see how opening the 1st Gate wouldn't increase Combat speed when it pushes the physical power close to the limits and allows it to perform multiple super speed taijutsu meaning increased combat speed in hand to hand.
Lmao about the same speed=/=.5 tier difference between the two. That doesn't make sense. Sasuke's speed is close enough for Gai to say it's about the same so there's no way he'd be half a tier below Lee in speed.
I dont think the difference is showing half a tier , only a slight difference since as we talked about before , his 3.5 could mean that he's a higher tiered 3.5 making him about the same speed as a lower tier 4 which would be Lee.
I can agree with this interpretation of the stats, but combat speed isn't overall speed because combat speed doesn't take movement speed into account. Overall speed would be reaction speed and movement speed and striking speed tied together.
Dexterity? There is no dexterity state. Taijutsu stat is Taijutsu skill. Nothing more, nothing less. Haku is shit in Taijutsu that's why Sasuke would spank him in hand to hand despite being faster than him.
Dexterity can be applied to Taijutsu skill in generalization and the bold is exactly my point and plays into why he outperformed Haku in speed despite having inferior stats. Haku is easily fast enough to react to Sasuke's combat speed , but in terms of Dexterity he was piss poor compared to Sasuke which allowed him to get spanked despite being faster than him.
Nah. Taijutsu just measures Taijutsu, which would be how good you are at said art. Dexterity ties into speed. Though there is a definition of Dexterity that would mean skill.
Yes, because Gaara's sand prevented him from getting close. Not because his own fighting style prevents him from getting close. That doesn't make sense.
I feel its Kimi's own acknowledgment of his running speed that prevented him from getting close , so he opted to send small projectiles to do the job for him while evading the attacking sand with his extreme agility. Never said Kimi couln't get close because he doesn't want to.
Yes but where was it noted or shown that SRA Gaara's sand went from being unable to catch Weighted Lee in the CE to being able to catch up to or pressure Unweighted Lee in movement speed ? Lee made no such observation when observing the sands movement against Kimi since i cant remember him saying anything about the sand bein fast or faster than he remembers.
No doubt the sand would have become faster , but thats a hell of a gap there without any notes at all especially from lee himself so imo its safe to say that Lee could replicate his distance clearing feats and easily outpace the sand in movement.
No, it really isn't. Combat speed has to do with reaction speed, which Sasuke is easily superior in. Neji only has the advantage when it comes to striking speed. Neji was shown to be that agile because he was just that fast in comparison to who or what he was fighting.
Taijutsu stat is skill, so that's irrelevant to what he can evade or what he can't evade as that's not speed. And going from 3 to 4 w/o Byakugan puts him on a level above Lee w/o Byakugan, but because his reactions jump up, not his actual speed, and there's no evidence his reactions jump up to a point where he can easily avoid Lee.
I agree and i never meant to make it seem as such since i was only noting the increase in combat speed to his reaction speed and tying them together since combat speed is based on reactions.
Lol don't start with this feat again. You don't know what level of speed it takes to dodge them so saying "extreme" is based on nothing because there is no speed feat proving that they are that fast. Just throwing this out there as an amazing feat because of the number of things he was able to dodge doesn't make sense.
Bro im just trying to let u understand exactly wat im trying to say , im not using the speed at which they came at Neji to try and prove anything , im only showing exactly wat i mean when talking about his agility and nimbleness in tight quarters seeing that the daggers were all dodged when in point-blank range while they constantly came only inches apart from eachother not to mention this was my first time even mentioning the feat LOL.
I used to think Sasuke practically pooped on Neji, but Neji has the superior speed feats and taijutsu. Precognition is nice and all, but the only reason it was even effective on its debut was because it was easy to exploit KN0 Naruto's reckless and linear fighting style. Neji is quite frankly, nothing like Naruto at all. His Taijutsu is more refined, he has a sensory advantage through the Byakugan, his attacks are rather dangerous for Sasuke even if he does parry them, and Neji easily has a defensive advantage in combot such as emitting chakra as a defense. Neji has significantly more advantages than Sasuke does and I'm inclined to give Neji the win here. Quite frankly, people refer to Sasuke's performance against KN0 Naruto as a means to justify Sasuke's superiority over Neji when Neji and Naruto are two completely different fighters, one far more equipped in Taijutsu than the other.
With the Cursed Seal, then we can agree that Sasuke poops on him ten times over, but without? Neji wins with moderate difficulty.
And yeah, it's good to be back. Everything was pretty good, just getting ready for university and I just needed a break from Naruto debating. It's back to reviewing the manga and getting back into the swing of things.
And yeah, it's good to be back. Everything was pretty good, just getting ready for university and I just needed a break from Naruto debating. It's back to reviewing the manga and getting back into the swing of things.
LOL Man restrictions are restrictions , even if it is , badly off-balanced with the loss of Neji's Taijutsu. How do u see the match going anyway? i gave Sasuke the win med diff.
Thats good to hear man , good to have u back here and knowing all was well lol , good luck with university man wish u the best and yea man , there's a time and place for everything and everything happens for a reason , but its funny u came back to base at this specific time LOL like the base is tryna make a small comeback wiggle LMAO , thats a good thing lol ur inputs were missed especially in this section..
What superior speed feats does SRA Neji have above Sasuke tho?
LOL Man restrictions are restrictions , even if it is , badly off-balanced with the loss of Neji's Taijutsu. How do u see the match going anyway? i gave Sasuke the win med diff.
Yeah, it's rather significant. I'm still not entirely sure if that's enough to stop Neji from winning.
Thats good to hear man , good to have u back here and knowing all was well lol , good luck with university man wish u the best and yea man , there's a time and place for everything and everything happens for a reason , but its funny u came back to base at this specific time LOL like the base is tryna make a small comeback wiggle LMAO , thats a good thing lol ur inputs were missed especially in this section..
Yeah, I noticed KidGamer and Dr. Proof were here which was interesting. Sorta excited for university, but I'm glad I still have a few weeks to brush up on debating and the Naruto manga before having to dedicate my time towards studying. Glad to see that my contributions were somewhat valuable. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute more towards the community.
What superior speed feats does SRA Neji have above Sasuke tho?
Mostly the ones that occurred in his fight with Kidoumaru such as:
1. Evading Kidoumaru's arrow at the start of the battle at point-blank range.
2. Managing to blitz Kidoumaru.
3. Managing to evade multiple of Kidoumaru's projectiles.
4. Managing to slice through dozens of Kidoumaru's webs after realizing Kaiten was ineffective.
All of these feats exceed what Sasuke was shown to be capable of.
Lmao I suggest you wipe your eyes, get some help from a friend and then read that again, because I literally just addressed this and you not being able to read what is clearly stated for you properly.
I-rel-le-vant
Not sure how many times I have to state this before it gets through your thick skull. Stop talking about this irrelevant nonsense when it has nothing to do with the point being made in this section of the post. The arguments you are addressing have been made in other parts of this post. Jesus Christ. How hard can this be?
I really i'm not sure why you're irate here? lol.. If you go back, you'll see i brought up the Kakashi-Zabuza scenario to show being in a disadvantageous position means you get tagged. Something you yourself agreed with..And then all of a sudden you brought up the irrelevant SM Naruto case?
I'm then telling you its irrelevant to bring those up but you're also saying it's irrelevant which is what i've been saying for the past two posts?
Quit asking me questions and start supporting your arguments. Bold is terrible terrible logic. Because Neji has dominated weaker people in that manner he'll do so to Sasuke? Are you even reading what you post before you post it? :lol
Bro...we had part 1 Neji fight 3 people on panel. Two of which he engaged in cqc with. What do you then want me to do? Not argue at all because we don't have him fight someone tougher than the two in cqc on panel? Judging abilities and who wins against who based on what we've seen from the characters....isn't this how debates work?
Also, to Neji when it comes to cqc, Sasuke is weaker than him. Sasuke is only stronger and faster than him at this point and that isn't enough to guarantee him a win as 1G Lee who is way faster and stronger than both canonically doesn't win against Neji.
You'll probably bring up Gentle fist (if i'm wrong sorry lol) but Gentle fist means nothing to 1G Lee when he can tank it does it not?
No, you've brought me scans of Neji parrying Hinata as proof he can parry Sasuke. Don't play dumb here. This logic is equivalent to saying "Since Ay destroyed Ribcage Susanoo, he can destroy Perfect Susanoo because they are both Susanoo" even though that disingenuous comparison doesn't take the different strengths of the two things being compared here.
Yet you continually have Sasuke parry Neji's strikes based on absolutely nothing. You came to terms with the fact Sasuke is the aggressor here and he's going to be attacking first but haven't provided anything to suggest Sasuke can maneuver himself after he launches in for an attack.
Because either fanboyism or plain ignorance is preventing you from debating like you should. A claim isn't right because you want it to be. You've provided no evidence that Neji can parry all of Sasuke's attacks yet you are actually sitting here in disbelief that your argument isn't being treated like it's valid.
Yet you have Sasuke parrying Neji's attacks based on nothing. You're here telling me not to use Hinata and Naruto as comparison to Sasuke..yet you're using Naruto as comparison to Neji here..not even considering the fact the fight at VoTE never included cqc.
The middle shows no spin, it shows him thrusting forward. :lol The only spins Neji does during 64 palms are at the beginning stages of the jutsu. Hilarious how you are saying he's spinning when you can literally only see his head, part of his torso and his hand. :lol :lol :lol :lol
I'm not nitpicking anything bro and a counter attack is a type of counter move? Isn't this like saying you can parry with a counterattack?
If you can't understand a concept as basic as this and continue to reply with nonsensical retorts then that's going to be on you. I can only waste my time repeating my arguments for so long.
-I've described what a parry is.
-I've described the difference between Neji's "parry" and a regular parry.
-Yet you keep responding with the same exact arguments.
"the parry Sasuke does is one that doesn't have a counter attack?"
Where in the world are you getting this from? :lol I specifically stated that a parry is a counter attack used to knock away an incoming attack. Nothing more, nothing less.
Do you not know what a counter attack is? You can't parry with a counter attack.. that makes no sense..A parry is warding off an attack with a counter move according to the definition you brought. How do you use a counter attack to ward off an attack?
Not really. I said that Neji can't parry Sasuke's attacks in the sense you are talking about, not the sense I'm talking about. But again, I expect another nonsense reply to a basic point like this.
That's what I'm asking for proof of. That's your claim. :lol So prove it and stop asking me dumb questions as if I'm the one who stated/implied that Sasuke missing would mean that he stumbles and loses his footing.
I never said Missed attacks result in a parry though :lol I brought scans of characters stumbling from parried attacks and dodged attacks.. I really don't get what you want me to do here bro.
No, the scans you posted showed them stumbling from PARRIED attacks ONLY. Not dodged attacks.
Naruto clearly stumbled when Sasuke dodged his attack though.
No, it's not. :lol Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Reactions don't need to be defensive, they can be offensive or defensive, and no, you haven't shown anything. Meanwhile I have a scan of Gai stating that if Lee wants to beat Neji, he needs a combo that'd prevent him from being touched.
What's even funnier is that you misread (a running theme in your posts) what I stated there. Who said that Gentle Fist isn't enough to take Lee down? I said it ALONE isn't WHY Neji wins. Two different meanings there bud.
Can you please enlighten how reactions can be offensive?
@bold ..They aren't two different meanings though...''Isn't enough'' and ''It alone'' basically mean the same thing do they not? For the past few posts you've just been seeming angry without reason bro. Why? lol
No, bring me feats of him doing something equivalent to someone on Sasuke's level or bring me feats that allow you to make such a statement. Not a hard task. Don't act like you need to perform the impossible just because what you are looking for isn't in the Manga.
I have done this by bringing scans of Neji doing all what i've said to characters he has engaged in cqc with and stated the manga portrayal of Gated (1&2) Lee who is faster and stronger than VoTE Sasuke losing to an inferior version of Neji (whose gentle fist alone wouldn't be enough to take him down)...how else do you want me to go about this? You want me to back down because we don't have Neji fighting Sasuke on panel?
Hah. Amazing that you ignore the definition that fits what I am referring to, what is important in this match, and what everyone on this forum uses durability as.
"Capable of withstanding wear and tear"
Susanoo can tank BD, thus it's durable. Neji getting a hole in his chest doesn't mean he's durable. Durability in the sense you are referring to is irrelevant to this argument.
At bold is what i've been using though. Neji moving coherently with two holes in him clearly shows him withstanding pain man. That's durability.
No it's not. Learn how to read. I've already addressed this and you repeating your idiotic interpretation (that was, again, addressed) isn't a counter it's you conceding your argument.
Are you kidding me? Everything he is talking about there refers to a single thing, Ura Renge. Please don't even try and deny that. He says "Extreme Lotus". Then he says "It (It=Extreme Lotus) is high speed Taijutsu that CAN'T EVEN BE TOUCHED". Then he says "THIS (This=Extreme Lotus, again) high speed combo is the answer to defeating Neji".
What's worse is that I gave you a helping hand and broke down that sentence(s) for you and you are still coming at me with this nonsense.
If you go back to where this part of the debate started, you'll see i made it clear the combo speed is fast enough Neji won't even have time to react not less touch. Meaning you have to be fast in striking to tag Neji as by portrayal 5G itself isn't enough to win against Neji (and i don't know how that's possible tbh) does it not? I then started asking for striking speed feats from Sasuke and you kept replying with ''he doesn't need to be fast''
Impacting in the same panel=/=Impacting at the same time. Lmao. Not sure how hard that concept is for you to grasp.
lol...we've been saying the same thing all along then..Perhaps i used ''same time'' and if so, i was wrong because i actually meant if it's shown in a panel, it happened all in that panel consecutively.
I'm sorry, but are you trolling or are you really this daft? LAUNCHING AT AND TARGETING SOMETHING ARE THE SAME EXACT THING SO WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING HERE? If a launch a rocket at a person, I targeted him and fired at him. Neji targeting and then attacking someone doesn't mean that he'll automatically hit them so cut this BS argument out, you don't make sense, at all.
If you launch a rocket at someone, then you must have already targeted. You can't launch at something you haven't targeted. Targeting comes first before launching. The DB says launch because once you're in the divination hexagram, you're automatically targeted.
-Superior strength.
-Superior movement speed.
[str]-Superior reaction speed.[/str]
Neji making his moves at the last minute doesn't automatically mean that Sasuke's own reaction speed is irrelevant. Not even sure how you came to that conclusion.
You haven't provided feats/scans supporting a scenario where Sasuke can maneuver his body perfectly after going in for a strike and getting counter-attacked. Especially when his opponent leaves his movement until the last moment.
This has literally been addressed. You repeating how Neji's fighting style works isn't going to prove that he can apply it against Sasuke.
Then how man..how? If showing Neji's fighting style with explanations and scans won't work, how do you want me to debate this? Again, you make it seem like you want me to bring scans of Neji fighting Sasuke.
I don't consider impossible scenarios and/or scenarios where the person I'm arguing with has failed to support happening with actual evidence.
Sasuke attacking Neji in cqc where Neji leaves his counter attacks/moves till the last moment leaving Sasuke with little to no time to react is an impossible scenario?
Neji spinning in motion is easier than him dodging. Striked out parts are irrelevant to the speed of Rotation, and the bold doesn't take Neji any noticeable time at all so of course, you make zero sense mentioning it.
'Striked out' parts are irrelevant to the speed of rotation yes...but relevant to why Neji had to use rotation in the first place especially when we see Neji had no
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until he expanded whatever it was that destroyed the ground.
Which is again, based on nothing considering you seem to be above the foolish belief that panels=time elapsed. An addressed argument is an addressed argument. Repeating the same defeated nonsense isn't going to prove your point.
Who cares if it's striking or movement? That's besides the point. Lee was faster and closer, thus he hit Sasuke while Haku was read. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Which is basically my point. Using Naruto as a basis for why Sasuke 'poops' on Neji makes no sense when he was coming at Sasuke from a distance thus he could be read. Neji and Sasuke would be engaging in cqc here.
No shit sherlock. Again, you aren't reading my posts properly. The point is, it being a counter attack doesn't mean that the nature of the movement wasn't an offensive nature.
More like you conceding because i've been asking for close to 6 posts now why Sharingan didn't read Lee's counter-attack to which you haven't given an answer.
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Not forgetting Sasuke's normal eyes were keeping up with Lee's attacks before. (
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)
We've seen how fast Neji does 64 palms ON PANEL. Stop mentioning off panel feats as if you knew what went down off panel.
We clearly see Kido had still not landed by the time Neji was done with him. Kido could not channel chakra meaning his tenketsu were closed after he landed...How do we not know what went down off panel?
:lol Them coming from 50m away is irrelevant when Neji can't see them until they are actually in his range, thus 50m away.
His range is 50m meaning those daggers were fired from outside 50m. If those daggers entered his 50m range without being controlled and without being fast, I seriously fail to see how Neji would watch them come all the way and restrict him from jumping out.
It isn't so because you say it's so pal. Number of panels=/=Elapsed time. That fact will never change.
When they are that many in number, no, they don't need to be exceptionally fast. :lol
-Back to this dumb argument again? Being able to travel 50m says shit about it's speed.
Holy shit I really can't take this guy seriously. This has been addressed above, below and in my last post. Neji dodging a bunch of daggers doesn't put him at the level where he easily dodges all of Sasuke's attacks. You repeating the same defeated arguments won't change that.
Being able to come from over 50m out (without being controlled) to restrict someone who can actually clearly see them coming from 50m out from jumping shows speed.
I would also like that you again look at the scan and if you can, kindly explain how newly launched daggers were in Neji's face before the dust from a previous wave could settle.
You were factoring human speed and what not and i was making it clear launched projectiles are launched projectiles. Nothing to do with how fast a human/ninja can run or what not.
:lol Stop. Arguing. Against. THE MANGA. It's getting pretty pathetic.
Focusing chakra into his blindspot means that he knows where it's coming. Him not being able to see it is irrelevant as he still detected it coming through another method so stop bringing up irrelevant points. Neji detected the arrow, and couldn't dodge. Neji saw the other daggers coming, and he could dodge.
And of course the underlined is nothing. If he had focused chakra into his blindspot he would've known that the daggers were coming thus he'd be able to avoid them as the only reason he couldn't dodge in the first place is because he did not know it was coming. Undeniable FACT.
Kido tells us he was dodging a hair's width from the
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though. Implying he detected those daggers but still got hit. The blindspot is the byakugan's weakness and that is a fact. You trying to imply the fact he can detect from his blindspot gives him the same advantage as actually seeing it is removing the weakness of the byakugan completely.
Hmm, what does that look like? Oh wait, another statement based on nothing at all.
You have. You've just chosen to ignore/dismiss them.
Lol it's funny how fast this guy's quality of argumentation plummeted. :lol
-Ignoring multiple Manga statements.
-Using panels in a still Manga to determine speed.
:lol And more of course. Make any more arguments on defeated points and I'll just strike them out. No reason to address them again when you aren't bringing anything new and/or worthwhile to the table. If you are going to repeat anything at all don't even bother quoting me tbh.
lol perhaps you're right..but what about yours? Resorting to yelling and hurling abusive words like 'idiotic' were things you never did in the first few posts of the debate. Not less talk about me bringing up Neji's actual feats that we see in the manga but you keep dismissing them because they didn't happen to Sasuke lol. And then you are using the basis of Sasuke dodging KN0 as proof that he poops on Neji when Naruto didn't engage him in cqc and Naruto and Neji do not use the same style of fighting.
Oh , im gonna on to ask u to elaborate a bit on that , see that Neji loses the basis to his Taijutsu i see it as him having to change from Gentle fist to Hard fist meanwhile Sasuke has easily greater durability and physical power especially considering he tanked multiple heavy hits from KN0 Naruto who is easily above Neji in physical power.
-3T would allow Sasuke to start following Neji's style in a prolonged Battle and Sasuke easily has better stamina/chakra. Neji would surely punk him earlier on , but his hits would do ntn more than make Sasuke smile.
Yeah, I noticed KidGamer and Dr. Proof were here which was interesting. Sorta excited for university, but I'm glad I still have a few weeks to brush up on debating and the Naruto manga before having to dedicate my time towards studying. Glad to see that my contributions were somewhat valuable. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute more towards the community.
Yea man , i told Kidgamer the same thing when he came back , his logical inputs are kinda the base to the base imo. University is the start to a whole new chapter i already know that ur focused , i myself am gonna start law school so my activity here is gonna be decapitated greatly pretty much that and dealing with family life.
-Lol ur inputs were always valuable imo easily one of the greatest minds here , very calm and mature not easily provoked and u show signs of a very good-natured person in real life , logical and different in ur analogies at times but still making sure to have a basis in ur thoughts , glad to have u back to the community and hope the decorum is pleasing.
This is a great feat considering he didn't use shunshin and intercepted kido falling from a tree from well over a 60m starting distance. Considering he only started to run long after Kido already started his downward descent makes it the best running speed feat shown in the manga if im not wrong , also considering he did so while fatally wounded and almost completely out of Chakra.
Those are basically Agility Feats in tight quarters which are very substantial , but do u see these feats allowing Neji the capability to dodge of of Sasuke's attacks in tight quarters without much chance of getting a clean tag from him?
This always interested me , do u think if KN0 Naruto utilized clones against 3T Sasuke that he would've trashed him in CQC? i think he would've gotten trashed seeing that the Sharingan can only anticipate things that are in the users Los and obviously against so many targets attacking simultaneously this would cause problems which is why i think kishi restricted Naruto LOL.
ALso could u rank these Fighters in terms Of Skill in Taijutsu starting from 1 to 10?
I really i'm not sure why you're irate here? lol.. If you go back, you'll see i brought up the Kakashi-Zabuza scenario to show being in a disadvantageous position means you get tagged. Something you yourself agreed with..And then all of a sudden you brought up the irrelevant SM Naruto case?
SM Naruto was a side example to prove part of the point I was trying to make, a fact you would've caught if you had READ before you replied.
Bro...we had part 1 Neji fight 3 people on panel. Two of which he engaged in cqc with. What do you then want me to do? Not argue at all because we don't have him fight someone tougher than the two in cqc on panel? Judging abilities and who wins against who based on what we've seen from the characters....isn't this how debates work?
Lmao I don't care what you do as long as it makes sense. Saying that Neji beats Sasuke because he beat Hinata or anything along the lines of that reasoning doesn't make sense. There being no panels that actually prove your point isn't an excuse.
Also, to Neji when it comes to cqc, Sasuke is weaker than him. Sasuke is only stronger and faster than him at this point and that isn't enough to guarantee him a win as 1G Lee who is way faster and stronger than both canonically doesn't win against Neji.
Which is a point you've yet to actually prove, because CQC=/=Taijutsu skill. Neji is more skilled. And more of this nonsense logic. 1G Lee can't defeat a Neji w/ Gentle Fist. Sasuke would beat 1G Lee in hand to hand w/ Sharingan at VoTE as he can literally move as fast as Lee, but with far better reaction speed. You keep bringing up this Lee point when the Lee you are referencing would not beat Sasuke.
You'll probably bring up Gentle fist (if i'm wrong sorry lol) but Gentle fist means nothing to 1G Lee when he can tank it does it not?
Another defeated point you keep bringing up. You say "Haha lol Gentle Fist is irrelevant because Lee can tank it", yet Gai himself said that Lee's key to victory is to AVOID BEING TOUCHED. Then we have the fact that Lee being able to fight after being hit=/=Lee not being damaged or weakened by it. :lol This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't read before you reply and I can't continue typing walls of text for someone like that.
Yet you continually have Sasuke parry Neji's strikes based on absolutely nothing. You came to terms with the fact Sasuke is the aggressor here and he's going to be attacking first but haven't provided anything to suggest Sasuke can maneuver himself after he launches in for an attack.
No, based on the fact that he can react and is physically strong enough to knock away his blows. What's funny is that you are also twisting my words since you can't come up with a logical counter argument of your own. Who said "continually parries his attacks"? :lol.
Yet you have Sasuke parrying Neji's attacks based on nothing. You're here telling me not to use Hinata and Naruto as comparison to Sasuke..yet you're using Naruto as comparison to Neji here..not even considering the fact the fight at VoTE never included cqc.
No, you see them in that position after a turn. You never see a turn in that actual panel so you can kindly stop lying about what the Manga panels depict now.
I'm not nitpicking anything bro and a counter attack is a type of counter move? Isn't this like saying you can parry with a counterattack?
Yes you fool because a counter attack is a type of counter move. :lol
Do you not know what a counter attack is? You can't parry with a counter attack.. that makes no sense..A parry is warding off an attack with a counter move according to the definition you brought. How do you use a counter attack to ward off an attack?
-A parry is warding off an attack with a counter move.
-A counter attack is a type of counter move.
-Thus it fits the definition.
And bold is a stupid ass question. Go watch any sword fight ever and you'll see how counter attacks are used to ward off incoming attacks. That's a parry.
Is that another reply that doesn't make sense I see? What is based on nothing? Lmao. Oh wait, you have no idea what you are talking about, which is another obvious theme of your posts.
I never said Missed attacks result in a parry though :lol I brought scans of characters stumbling from parried attacks and dodged attacks.. I really don't get what you want me to do here bro.
This was also addressed. Because Naruto threw all his force and weight into a single punch and he dashed at Sasuke, something I specifically stated Sasuke doesn't need to do here yet you are STILL replying with this nonsense. :lol
Can you please enlighten how reactions can be offensive?
@bold ..They aren't two different meanings though...''Isn't enough'' and ''It alone'' basically mean the same thing do they not? For the past few posts you've just been seeming angry without reason bro. Why? lol
DB states that Gai's quick as a flash reflexes let him combat an armed opponent even when he's unarmed. That's offense right there. Reactions aren't just defensive. If reaction speed only helped defense Sasuke getting Sharingan wouldn't have let him beat Naruto's ass.
Lol I'm not going to waste my time explaining sentence structure to you. Just know that that is what I meant.
Because you are either choosing to not to read my posts or you just can't. Either way I'm typing walls of text to someone who isn't reading. Waste of effort right there. :lol
I have done this by bringing scans of Neji doing all what i've said to characters he has engaged in cqc with and stated the manga portrayal of Gated (1&2) Lee who is faster and stronger than VoTE Sasuke losing to an inferior version of Neji (whose gentle fist alone wouldn't be enough to take him down)...how else do you want me to go about this? You want me to back down because we don't have Neji fighting Sasuke on panel?
-Jinrou thinks that Neji defeating Hinata means that Neji beats Sasuke.
-Jinrou thinks that Neji parrying all of Hinata's attacks means that Neji parries all of Sasuke's attacks. (despite Hinata being inferior to Sasuke)
-Jinrou thinks that Gated Lee being unable to defeat Neji w/ Gentle Fist means that Neji w/o Gentle Fist defeats VoTE Sasuke despite Sasuke being superior.
-Jinrou, after being told what I meant when I said what I said since his poor reading skills lead him to misunderstand my post despite the phrasing and the context, still uses a point I didn't make to try and prove his own point since everyone reading this and he himself knows that he makes zero sense with the support he has set up so far.
At bold is what i've been using though. Neji moving coherently with two holes in him clearly shows him withstanding pain man. That's durability.
Neji moving with holes in his body is a different definition of Durability altogether and I literally just showed you what definition it was so you can stop now. Neji moving with holes in his body isn't his body withstanding wear and tear. Neji getting a hole in his body from an attack isn't durability in that sense and it never will no matter how you try to twist it.
If you go back to where this part of the debate started, you'll see i made it clear the combo speed is fast enough Neji won't even have time to react not less touch. Meaning you have to be fast in striking to tag Neji as by portrayal 5G itself isn't enough to win against Neji (and i don't know how that's possible tbh) does it not? I then started asking for striking speed feats from Sasuke and you kept replying with ''he doesn't need to be fast''
-The Manga stated that Lee needs to move faster and hit Neji faster than he can react.
-You start talking about this meaning that fast striking speed is needed to tag Neji even though the scan didn't even begin to imply the following:
1. That Neji can't be tagged w/o 5G Ura Renge level striking speed.
2. That Neji>5G Lee in raw hand to hand without Gentle Fist.
-Then I state that you are wrong because Gai made it clear that Lee needs to avoid being touched by Neji, because Gentle Fist is dangerous (only reason why he'd need to avoid being touched).
-Then you ask for striking speed feats without addressing my argument (because you can't :lol) despite the fact that my argument (you know, the one you ignored) shows that he doesn't need 5G Level speed to tag Neji.
And now you are repeating the same defeated argument without addressing my argument. :lol :lol :lol This is why I'm done arguing with you after this post.
lol...we've been saying the same thing all along then..Perhaps i used ''same time'' and if so, i was wrong because i actually meant if it's shown in a panel, it happened all in that panel consecutively.
If you launch a rocket at someone, then you must have already targeted. You can't launch at something you haven't targeted. Targeting comes first before launching. The DB says launch because once you're in the divination hexagram, you're automatically targeted.
Hmm, and does that mean that the person being attacked can't dodge? No. :lol So stop with this nonsense point.
You haven't provided feats/scans supporting a scenario where Sasuke can maneuver his body perfectly after going in for a strike and getting counter-attacked. Especially when his opponent leaves his movement until the last moment.
I haven't provided feats for that idiotic scenario because in your scenario, Neji parries his attacks like he did Hinata, yet you've failed to show that he can with sufficient proof.
Then how man..how? If showing Neji's fighting style with explanations and scans won't work, how do you want me to debate this? Again, you make it seem like you want me to bring scans of Neji fighting Sasuke.
Lmao amazing. You should probably stop arguing anything at all if this is how you try and do things. Your points not being valid simply means that they aren't valid. If you can't find anything that proves your point in the Manga, you don't have an argument. There not being scans of Neji being able to do what you say he can do doesn't mean you can use whatever you want and get away with it.
Sasuke attacking Neji in cqc where Neji leaves his counter attacks/moves till the last moment leaving Sasuke with little to no time to react is an impossible scenario?
Yup, because that describes what he did to Hinata and you cant prove the gap in ability is that large.
'Striked out' parts are irrelevant to the speed of rotation yes...but relevant to why Neji had to use rotation in the first place especially when we see Neji had no
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until he expanded whatever it was that destroyed the ground.
Which is basically my point. Using Naruto as a basis for why Sasuke 'poops' on Neji makes no sense when he was coming at Sasuke from a distance thus he could be read. Neji and Sasuke would be engaging in cqc here.
More like you conceding because i've been asking for close to 6 posts now why Sharingan didn't read Lee's counter-attack to which you haven't given an answer.
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Not forgetting Sasuke's normal eyes were keeping up with Lee's attacks before. (
No, if you weren't illiterate then you would've known that I addressed this BS already.
We clearly see Kido had still not landed by the time Neji was done with him. Kido could not channel chakra meaning his tenketsu were closed after he landed...How do we not know what went down off panel?
Come from all the way? He can only see 50m ahead first of all, and if he can't escape all of them before they cross it means that the speed+area of the daggers=Neji being unable to evade the entire area. :lol Also addressed in my last post, and the post before that.
In a manga that isn't animated. I really am curious to know how you then depict speed and time from a manga.
Being able to come from over 50m out (without being controlled) to restrict someone who can actually clearly see them coming from 50m out from jumping shows speed.
I would also like that you again look at the scan and if you can, kindly explain how newly launched daggers were in Neji's face before the dust from a previous wave could settle.
It doesn't show the necessary level of speed to prove your point. So try again. All you have proven is that they move fast, not fast enough, and you can't do that because they literally have no speed feats. The rest is irrelevant and has been addressed before, but once again, you can't read. :lol The dust settling still when Kidomaru launched his traps means that Kidomaru launched the traps as soon as the daggers settled. Irrelevant to speed. Why do such simple concepts escape your comprehension?
You were factoring human speed and what not and i was making it clear launched projectiles are launched projectiles. Nothing to do with how fast a human/ninja can run or what not.
It has everything to do with how fast Ninjas and Humans can REACT. Not how fast they can run.
Kido tells us he was dodging a hair's width from the
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though. Implying he detected those daggers but still got hit. The blindspot is the byakugan's weakness and that is a fact. You trying to imply the fact he can detect from his blindspot gives him the same advantage as actually seeing it is removing the weakness of the byakugan completely.
Lmao that doesn't imply anything of the sort. Kidomaru himself stated MULTIPLE TIMES that Neji COULD NOT SEE the daggers coming. Why are you switching up your argument? Just 2 or 3 posts ago you were posting scans showing that the daggers that hit Neji in his blindspot only hit him because he couldn't see them, now you are here saying that he did detect them.
Neji stated that if he focuses chakra to his blindspot, he can detect attacks coming there. That's a fact. Nothing more to discuss on this point.
At this point i would say actually proving Naruto has greater reactions than Neji would suffice here.
Naruto can attack Sasuke faster than Sasuke can properly react. Reaction speed of a person>>movement speed of a person. That puts his reaction speed far above Sasuke's since Sasuke can't react properly to Naruto's level of speed, but Naruto can properly react to a level of speed beyond that.
That's VoTE 2 Tomoe Sasuke w/ Lee's level of speed copied already. Where has Neji displayed reaction speed above KN0? Oh wait, that question doesn't matter because I'm not dragging this argument on after this post.
You have. You've just chosen to ignore/dismiss them.
lol perhaps you're right..but what about yours? Resorting to yelling and hurling abusive words like 'idiotic' were things you never did in the first few posts of the debate. Not less talk about me bringing up Neji's actual feats that we see in the manga but you keep dismissing them because they didn't happen to Sasuke lol. And then you are using the basis of Sasuke dodging KN0 as proof that he poops on Neji when Naruto didn't engage him in cqc and Naruto and Neji do not use the same style of fighting.
Oh , im gonna on to ask u to elaborate a bit on that , see that Neji loses the basis to his Taijutsu i see it as him having to change from Gentle fist to Hard fist meanwhile Sasuke has easily greater durability and physical power especially considering he tanked multiple heavy hits from KN0 Naruto who is easily above Neji in physical power.
-3T would allow Sasuke to start following Neji's style in a prolonged Battle and Sasuke easily has better stamina/chakra. Neji would surely punk him earlier on , but his hits would do ntn more than make Sasuke smile.
I agree, he loses the basis for his Taijutsu, but he still holds other advantages such as greater strike speed and evasion along with a perception advantage similar to the Sharingan which is crucial for handling the Sharingan. As I stated before, Precognition is most effective in response to linear attacks, but Neji's attacks are more refined and he places more emphasis on evasion then individuals like KN0 Naruto, so I don't necessarily believe that Precognition is as effective as most would think here.
Let's also take into consideration how Zabuza managed to compete with Kakashi despite both operating at around the same speed tier, so there's no issues with Neji being capable of contending with Sasuke when he mitigates Sasuke's advantages with his Byakugan and is more evasive than Sasuke.
Yea man , i told Kidgamer the same thing when he came back , his logical inputs are kinda the base to the base imo. University is the start to a whole new chapter i already know that ur focused , i myself am gonna start law school so my activity here is gonna be decapitated greatly pretty much that and dealing with family life.
-Lol ur inputs were always valuable imo easily one of the greatest minds here , very calm and mature not easily provoked and u show signs of a very good-natured person in real life , logical and different in ur analogies at times but still making sure to have a basis in ur thoughts , glad to have u back to the community and hope the decorum is pleasing.
Shit, Law School seems kind of rough. Hopefully things are going good with your family and hopefully you'll be able to go on somewhat. When does school start for you btw?
Thanks! That's the best compliment I've ever received.
You also helped me quite a bit with your debating because you actually enlightened me more on Neji's ability. For instance, I didn't know that Neji's Byakugan doesn't give him greater perception within a certain radius nor did I know that Hinata had no knowledge of her blindspot.
He didn't even it but rather slowed it down hit chakra and altered it trajectory making it a non critical hit.
This is a great feat considering he didn't use shunshin and intercepted kido falling from a tree from well over a 60m starting distance. Considering he only started to run long after Kido already started his downward descent makes it the best running speed feat shown in the manga if im not wrong , also considering he did so while fatally wounded and almost completely out of Chakra.
I was referring to the scenario that I listed before, but that's also an impressive speed feat.
Those are basically Agility Feats in tight quarters which are very substantial , but do u see these feats allowing Neji the capability to dodge of of Sasuke's attacks in tight quarters without much chance of getting a clean tag from him?
I do considering each of those daggers were fired simultaneously with each projectile being a centimeter, if not, even less, away from each other which gave Neji very little wiggle room to evade these attacks. With Sasuke, each of his his attacks have a longer interval in-between than Kidoumaru's projectiles, so I do view Neji's feat as a representation of him being capable of evading Sasuke's attacks.
This always interested me , do u think if KN0 Naruto utilized clones against 3T Sasuke that he would've trashed him in CQC? i think he would've gotten trashed seeing that the Sharingan can only anticipate things that are in the users Los and obviously against so many targets attacking simultaneously this would cause problems which is why i think kishi restricted Naruto LOL.
One thing we have to take into consideration is how Naruto performs significantly better with a strategy in mind as opposed to fighting recklessly. Naruto performed rather poorly against Sasori and Deidara and it wasn't up until Kakashi formulated a plan with Naruto and took advantage of his clones that Naruto managed to land a clean hit. This is further emphasized against Kakuzu where fighting recklessly would've gotten him slaughtered yet making efficient usage of his clones enabled him to perform significantly better.
With Naruto's unpredictability and what the manga suggests, Naruto operates much better with clones and an actual strategy, so I'd imagine he would've performed significantly better than he did in the manga.
ALso could u rank these Fighters in terms Of Skill in Taijutsu starting from 1 to 10?
1. Kimimaro
2. SRA Neji
3. VoTE Sasuke w/o Sharingan
4. Rock Lee
One has to take into consideration of how Rock Lee's Databook stat takes into account of his knowledge in Taijutsu which includes Opening the first 5 Gates which isn't necessarily indicative of how proficient he is in Taijutsu without them.
Oh , im gonna on to ask u to elaborate a bit on that , see that Neji loses the basis to his Taijutsu i see it as him having to change from Gentle fist to Hard fist meanwhile Sasuke has easily greater durability and physical power especially considering he tanked multiple heavy hits from KN0 Naruto who is easily above Neji in physical power.
-3T would allow Sasuke to start following Neji's style in a prolonged Battle and Sasuke easily has better stamina/chakra. Neji would surely punk him earlier on , but his hits would do ntn more than make Sasuke smile.
Yea man , i told Kidgamer the same thing when he came back , his logical inputs are kinda the base to the base imo. University is the start to a whole new chapter i already know that ur focused , i myself am gonna start law school so my activity here is gonna be decapitated greatly pretty much that and dealing with family life.
-Lol ur inputs were always valuable imo easily one of the greatest minds here , very calm and mature not easily provoked and u show signs of a very good-natured person in real life , logical and different in ur analogies at times but still making sure to have a basis in ur thoughts , glad to have u back to the community and hope the decorum is pleasing.
He didn't even it but rather slowed it down hit chakra and altered it trajectory making it a non critical hit.
This is a great feat considering he didn't use shunshin and intercepted kido falling from a tree from well over a 60m starting distance. Considering he only started to run long after Kido already started his downward descent makes it the best running speed feat shown in the manga if im not wrong , also considering he did so while fatally wounded and almost completely out of Chakra.
Those are basically Agility Feats in tight quarters which are very substantial , but do u see these feats allowing Neji the capability to dodge of of Sasuke's attacks in tight quarters without much chance of getting a clean tag from him?
This always interested me , do u think if KN0 Naruto utilized clones against 3T Sasuke that he would've trashed him in CQC? i think he would've gotten trashed seeing that the Sharingan can only anticipate things that are in the users Los and obviously against so many targets attacking simultaneously this would cause problems which is why i think kishi restricted Naruto LOL.
ALso could u rank these Fighters in terms Of Skill in Taijutsu starting from 1 to 10?
Would you mind showing me how sasuke has a physical ability strong enough to handle Naruto . Because all I remember him doing was counterpunching which takes little to no effort because he used most of that person's momentum against them
But neji on the other hand finger poke a grown Man through a tree . With just his finger
Why would Sasuke be able to dismantle Neji in the one area that he's good at, and has specialized in for his entire life? Bad writing? Sasuke is going to need his other tools to have any hope of winning this one.
Would you mind showing me how sasuke has a physical ability strong enough to handle Naruto . Because all I remember him doing was counterpunching which takes little to no effort because he used most of that person's momentum against them
But neji on the other hand finger poke a grown Man through a tree . With just his finger
Sasuke has the physical to stomp KN0 Naruto simply due to his CM2 Awakening ritual which amped his stats and durability and Neji's feats are irrelevant since Sasuke is superior in physical power even before the ritual not to mention Sasuke would laught at Neji's hits LMAO.
I agree, he loses the basis for his Taijutsu, but he still holds other advantages such as greater strike speed and evasion along with a perception advantage similar to the Sharingan which is crucial for handling the Sharingan. As I stated before, Precognition is most effective in response to linear attacks, but Neji's attacks are more refined and he places more emphasis on evasion then individuals like KN0 Naruto, so I don't necessarily believe that Precognition is as effective as most would think here.
I can agree here , but how does he take down a Sause that can withstand multiple heavy hits and combos from KN0 Naruto without any injury while KN0 Naruto himself got taken down by only a few hits from him??
Let's also take into consideration how Zabuza managed to compete with Kakashi despite both operating at around the same speed tier, so there's no issues with Neji being capable of contending with Sasuke when he mitigates Sasuke's advantages with his Byakugan and is more evasive than Sasuke.
Shit, Law School seems kind of rough. Hopefully things are going good with your family and hopefully you'll be able to go on somewhat. When does school start for you btw?
Yea man it was never a plan for me but i have a couple familiy members in the field + allot of support so i'm just gonna give it my all and do the best i can.
-Starts next week.
Thanks! That's the best compliment I've ever received.
You also helped me quite a bit with your debating because you actually enlightened me more on Neji's ability. For instance, I didn't know that Neji's Byakugan doesn't give him greater perception within a certain radius nor did I know that Hinata had no knowledge of her blindspot.
I do considering each of those daggers were fired simultaneously with each projectile being a centimeter, if not, even less, away from each other which gave Neji very little wiggle room to evade these attacks. With Sasuke, each of his his attacks have a longer interval in-between than Kidoumaru's projectiles, so I do view Neji's feat as a representation of him being capable of evading Sasuke's attacks.
I fully agree here especially when trying to fully gauge the feat , the mental and physical agility needed for those feats is extreme and the sheer numbers and tightness gave literally zero obvious wiggle room.
-This ties into my Discussion with Kidgamer that people like Neji and Kimimaro are much more agile/flexible in tight quarters more so that they are fast in running/body speed like Lee , which enables people like prelims Neji to easily deal with the Combat speed of 1st Gated Lee who is much faster and stronger than weightless Lee in CQC and comfortably beat him without chance of getting tagged since getting tagged would immediately give Lee the advantage due to his enhanced 1st Gated power and speed.
One thing we have to take into consideration is how Naruto performs significantly better with a strategy in mind as opposed to fighting recklessly. Naruto performed rather poorly against Sasori and Deidara and it wasn't up until Kakashi formulated a plan with Naruto and took advantage of his clones that Naruto managed to land a clean hit. This is further emphasized against Kakuzu where fighting recklessly would've gotten him slaughtered yet making efficient usage of his clones enabled him to perform significantly better.
With Naruto's unpredictability and what the manga suggests, Naruto operates much better with clones and an actual strategy, so I'd imagine he would've performed significantly better than he did in the manga.
1. Kimimaro
2. SRA Neji
3. VoTE Sasuke w/o Sharingan
4. Rock Lee
One has to take into consideration of how Rock Lee's Databook stat takes into account of his knowledge in Taijutsu which includes Opening the first 5 Gates which isn't necessarily indicative of how proficient he is in Taijutsu without them.
I can agree with ur analogy but VOTE Sasuke being above Lee is something i cant agree with seeing as Lee is a genius of Taijutsu while Sasuke is simply adept.
Lmao I don't care what you do as long as it makes sense. Saying that Neji beats Sasuke because he beat Hinata or anything along the lines of that reasoning doesn't make sense. There being no panels that actually prove your point isn't an excuse.
Yet you have Sasuke defeating Neji because he beat a reckless one hit coming from a distance Naruto?? Shame you aren't replying this though lol
Which is a point you've yet to actually prove, because CQC=/=Taijutsu skill. Neji is more skilled. And more of this nonsense logic. 1G Lee can't defeat a Neji w/ Gentle Fist. Sasuke would beat 1G Lee in hand to hand w/ Sharingan at VoTE as he can literally move as fast as Lee, but with far better reaction speed. You keep bringing up this Lee point when the Lee you are referencing would not beat Sasuke.
1st gate Lee is faster than unweighted Lee though. Not that it matters anyway as movement speed means nothing in cqc as if that were the case, Neji shouldn't be able to touch unweighted not less 1st and 2nd gated Lee.
Another defeated point you keep bringing up. You say "Haha lol Gentle Fist is irrelevant because Lee can tank it", yet Gai himself said that Lee's key to victory is to AVOID BEING TOUCHED. Then we have the fact that Lee being able to fight after being hit=/=Lee not being damaged or weakened by it. :lol This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't read before you reply and I can't continue typing walls of text for someone like that.
lol...Lee's body is already being wrecked while in gates.
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that is a fact. We've seen gentle fist against Hinata and even she was able to stand up from it multiple times. Gentle fist probably worsens the condition Lee will be in after gates runs out but it wouldn't make any sense for gentle fist to actually effect Lee in gates when his innards are already being wrecked from using said gates.
No, based on the fact that he can react and is physically strong enough to knock away his blows. What's funny is that you are also twisting my words since you can't come up with a logical counter argument of your own. Who said "continually parries his attacks"? :lol.
All boils down to aggressor scenario again. Neji does not flat out attack his opponents lol. Sasuke would have to come in first and iirc, he has no maneuverability agility feats to suggest he can alter his positioning to jump away or knock away a counter attack while already in an attacking pose/motion/form.
Yes you fool because a counter attack is a type of counter move. :lol
-A parry is warding off an attack with a counter move.
-A counter attack is a type of counter move.
-Thus it fits the definition.
And bold is a stupid ass question. Go watch any sword fight ever and you'll see how counter attacks are used to ward off incoming attacks. That's a parry.
lol what? There is so much wrong with this...i'm not even sure how to explain
@underlined...Bro..those are counter moves..not counter attacks lol
This was also addressed. Because Naruto threw all his force and weight into a single punch and he dashed at Sasuke, something I specifically stated Sasuke doesn't need to do here yet you are STILL replying with this nonsense. :lol
So Sasuke won't be using all his strength in this fight.. so you have him winning from light punches...which i honestly doubt are even a thing.
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DB states that Gai's quick as a flash reflexes let him combat an armed opponent even when he's unarmed. That's offense right there. Reactions aren't just defensive. If reaction speed only helped defense Sasuke getting Sharingan wouldn't have let him beat Naruto's ass.
Lol I'm not going to waste my time explaining sentence structure to you. Just know that that is what I meant.
Because you are either choosing to not to read my posts or you just can't. Either way I'm typing walls of text to someone who isn't reading. Waste of effort right there. :lol
- lmao..Sasuke won against Naruto because of offensive timing which he won't have in a straight up cqc with an opponent that doesn't set out to attack
- I see you stylishly want to equate reflexes as being = reactions. Nice try there.
Neji moving with holes in his body is a different definition of Durability altogether and I literally just showed you what definition it was so you can stop now. Neji moving with holes in his body isn't his body withstanding wear and tear. Neji getting a hole in his body from an attack isn't durability in that sense and it never will no matter how you try to twist it.
Would have really loved to know this different definition of durability you're mentioning though.
You can't read for shit to be honest.
-The Manga stated that Lee needs to move faster and hit Neji faster than he can react.
-You start talking about this meaning that fast striking speed is needed to tag Neji even though the scan didn't even begin to imply the following:
1. That Neji can't be tagged w/o 5G Ura Renge level striking speed.
2. That Neji>5G Lee in raw hand to hand without Gentle Fist.
-Then I state that you are wrong because Gai made it clear that Lee needs to avoid being touched by Neji, because Gentle Fist is dangerous (only reason why he'd need to avoid being touched).
-Then you ask for striking speed feats without addressing my argument (because you can't :lol) despite the fact that my argument (you know, the one you ignored) shows that he doesn't need 5G Level speed to tag Neji.
And now you are repeating the same defeated argument without addressing my argument. :lol :lol :lol This is why I'm done arguing with you after this post.
1G Lee is stronger and faster than CE Neji. Blocking against this Lee who already in base was strong enough to rip out the root of a tree would be suicidal would it not? If Neji blocked any of those Lee's attacks, then we are giving Neji a very high durability feat here.
We then have 5G Lee whose strength is probably 5 times that already still needing a combo (fast consecutive strikes) to defeat said Neji when one or two clean hits would probably do the job at that stage. You have clearly being trying to ignore the context here.
You also kept emphasising on the 'can't be touched' phrase implying Neji would need only 1 touch with Gentle fist to bring down 5G Lee..in which case, Neji would be winning against all part 1 Jounin in their base forms since you're implying just one touch is needed from Neji to end a fight. And if that is what you are suggesting, we know that isn't the case as Hinata stood up multiple times from Neji's gentle fist strikes and the only time he wanted to put her down with 1 strike, it was implied she would have been killed.
I haven't provided feats for that idiotic scenario because in your scenario, Neji parries his attacks like he did Hinata, yet you've failed to show that he can with sufficient proof.
lmao...what exactly does Sasuke have/shown that suggests his attacks won't be parried by someone who has been training in taijutsu?
Lmao amazing. You should probably stop arguing anything at all if this is how you try and do things. Your points not being valid simply means that they aren't valid. If you can't find anything that proves your point in the Manga, you don't have an argument. There not being scans of Neji being able to do what you say he can do doesn't mean you can use whatever you want and get away with it.
Yet throughout the debate you used this same logic to prove Sasuke defeats Neji. Sasuke had no impressive cqc feats in part 1 and the only advantage he has here are offensive timing (which is rendered useless by Neji's fighting style as he waits for Sasuke to come instead) and limited overall movement speed which counts for nothing in cqc. Yet you expected me to accept your points without actual proof of anything either.
Yes..with opinions that directly contradict the manga and surely you don't expect me to pick your opinion over the manga's? The sharingan clearly wasn't able to read the counter attack.
Irrelevant. Why do they have to be exceptionally fast to cross a distance of over 50m? Why are you still using this crap argument?
Come from all the way? He can only see 50m ahead first of all, and if he can't escape all of them before they cross it means that the speed+area of the daggers=Neji being unable to evade the entire area. :lol Also addressed in my last post, and the post before that.
It isn't a crap argument though..you just have a crap logic it seems. Uncontrolled daggers come from over 50m out and you can see them but you wait for them to converge and restrict you from jumping when you can simply run towards one side of the aoe and either slide/jump over that side? This makes no sense especially if they are slow.
Shame tbh..Like i said before..would have loved to know how KidGamer denotes speed from a manga that can only use panels to illustrate what it wants to.
It doesn't show the necessary level of speed to prove your point. So try again. All you have proven is that they move fast, not fast enough, and you can't do that because they literally have no speed feats. The rest is irrelevant and has been addressed before, but once again, you can't read. :lol The dust settling still when Kidomaru launched his traps means that Kidomaru launched the traps as soon as the daggers settled. Irrelevant to speed. Why do such simple concepts escape your comprehension?
lol..fast enough to do what? Those daggers were fast enough to restrict Neji from jumping out, had layers separated by what looks like inches from each other and Neji evaded them all point blank. Sasuke is going to be coming at Neji and can't even dream of replicating strikes in the number of daggers that Neji dodged point blank. Which is why i've been asking for striking speed feats since the beginning..But well...since you're done, it can't be helped eh?
Lmao that doesn't imply anything of the sort. Kidomaru himself stated MULTIPLE TIMES that Neji COULD NOT SEE the daggers coming. Why are you switching up your argument? Just 2 or 3 posts ago you were posting scans showing that the daggers that hit Neji in his blindspot only hit him because he couldn't see them, now you are here saying that he did detect them.
Neji stated that if he focuses chakra to his blindspot, he can detect attacks coming there. That's a fact. Nothing more to discuss on this point.
I didn't know Kido knew more about Neji than Neji himself.
I was obviously wrong with my initial assessment as i realized with that scan that Kido stated Neji was dodging from critical organs at the last minute and that can only refer to the daggers that actually hit Neji as all others were dodged neg diff implying Neji did detect the daggers in his blindspot but was able to deflect them from his critical organs at the last minute much like he did with the final arrow.
Naruto can attack Sasuke faster than Sasuke can properly react. Reaction speed of a person>>movement speed of a person. That puts his reaction speed far above Sasuke's since Sasuke can't react properly to Naruto's level of speed, but Naruto can properly react to a level of speed beyond that.
Very true. Good points. So Naruto who had faster reactions than Sasuke couldn't react to Sasuke's counter attack due to his offensive timing. I'm seeing an explanation here of why Sasuke who you claim has faster reactions than Neji still loses to him lol
The bold proves my entire point. I'm done. :lol Nothing else needs to be said after this point.
btw i spent the whole debate trying to make you see a case for Neji and when it looked like it wasn't getting through i brought up a scenario which you immediately dismissed with ''It's an impossible scenario'' lol.
Nevertheless, it was fun and i look forward to debating with you again if i have the time ^^
