Even if Minato could extend SM Naruto could still be the strongest Sage.

[SasukeSixPack]

First off Minato could only arguably be placed above Naruto in SM if he has SM himself for the simple fact that SM users can react to his striking speed and even Non-SM users have been able to do so. SM Enhanced reflexes are different to regular ones but I'm not sure if Sages outside of the Juubi's Jin could react to it or if all perfect Sages could.

 

[90sKids98]

Minato said himself his SM was bad

You failed hard :tea:

 

[LoZelda101]

First off Minato could only arguably be placed above Naruto in SM if he has SM himself for the simple fact that SM users can react to his striking speed and even Non-SM users have been able to do so. SM Enhanced reflexes are different to regular ones but I'm not sure if Sages outside of the Juubi's Jin could react to it or if all perfect Sages could.

base off what?

 

[SasukeSixPack]

base off what?

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(Tobirama but it counts cus its the same Jutsu and their striking speed is the same)

 

[LoZelda101]

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(Tobirama but it counts cus its the same Jutsu and their striking speed is the same)

juubidara has six path senjutsu, it's stronger than what minato and SM naruto was given.
and madara's reflexes stacks with his senjutsu to which he countered tobirama.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

juubidara has six path senjutsu, it's stronger than what minato and SM naruto was given.
and madara's reflexes stacks with his senjutsu to which he countered tobirama.

Senjutsu is Sage techniques. Are you trying to say that becoming Jin Made his reflexes better than what they were before when he had SM? Where did you even get that info. Senjutsu enhances your reflexes and your sensing as well. It's not just about reflexes so Madara having better reflexes than Naruto in base isn't why he was able to react

 

[Holy God]

Senjutsu is Sage techniques. Are you trying to say that becoming Jin Made his reflexes better than what they were before when he had SM? Where did you even get that info. Senjutsu enhances your reflexes and your sensing as well. It's not just about reflexes so Madara having better reflexes than Naruto in base isn't why he was able to react

I agree that Sage Mode users can react, but if you're suggesting Six Paths Sage Mode has equivalent reaction speed to Sage Mode, then that's just silly.

 

[LoZelda101]

Senjutsu is Sage techniques. Are you trying to say that becoming Jin Made his reflexes better than what they were before when he had SM? Where did you even get that info. Senjutsu enhances your reflexes and your sensing as well. It's not just about reflexes so Madara having better reflexes than Naruto in base isn't why he was able to react

Let me rephrase it. having the bijuu chakra already gives you fast reaction timing right? (naruto reacting to Ay) that is only complimented when senjutsu is given on top of it. obviously juubijin madara would have better reaction than say someone with just plain old sage mode. imo. I had to go back and check, I thought BSM enabled naruto's senjutsu to be stronger but it didn't. but he still should have gained better reaction timing compared to his BM but it seems only jiraiya is the only who naturally has inferior sensing compared to those with perfect sage mode.

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but yes, i'm sure rikudou sagemode has better reaction skills/sensory. however that works.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

I agree that Sage Mode users can react, but if you're suggesting Six Paths Sage Mode has equivalent reaction speed to Sage Mode, then that's just silly.

Ok. Show me the difference between 1RSM Madara reacting to Tobirama and JJ Madara reacting to SM Minato's striking speed respectively.

 

[Holy God]

Ok. Show me the difference between 1RSM Madara reacting to Tobirama and JJ Madara reacting to SM Minato's striking speed respectively.

Why would there be a difference when both versions can react? The only thing that could be said was that there was no "!" indication when Minato appeared in front of Madara.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

Let me rephrase it. having the bijuu chakra already gives you fast reaction timing right? (naruto reacting to Ay) that is only complimented when senjutsu is given on top of it. obviously juubijin madara would have better reaction than say someone with just plain old sage mode. imo. I had to go back and check, I thought BSM enabled naruto's senjutsu to be stronger but it didn't. but he still should have gained better reaction timing compared to his BM but it seems only jiraiya is the only who naturally has inferior sensing compared to those with perfect sage mode.

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but yes, i'm sure rikudou sagemode has better reaction skills/sensory. however that works.

No when Naruto uses SM while in BM it enhances the Cloaks/BM's abilities because he's using it along with BM. It doesn't mean his reactions will get better because what he is doing is utilizing the attributes from both powers at once. BM already made his reflexes >>> SM so adding SM to it wouldn't make it better that's why there wasn't a notable change in his reaction or speed after he got BSM when compared to BM. Sensing yes but in terms of compiling the abilities that's not how it works.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

Why would there be a difference when both versions can react? The only thing that could be said was that there was no "!" indication when Minato appeared in front of Madara.

Obviously because he appeared in front of Madara. Six Path Senjutsu is still senjutsu but it adds other abilities to the basic Senjutsu ones but there was never any indication that it increased speed and reaction time beyond that of a perfect Sage which was already made clear in the JJ obito fight.

 

[Holy God]

Obviously because he appeared in front of Madara. Six Path Senjutsu is still senjutsu but it adds other abilities to the basic Senjutsu ones but there was never any indication that it increased speed and reaction time beyond that of a perfect Sage which was already made clear in the JJ obito fight.

Six Paths Sage chakra may just be Six Paths chakra infused with the same nature energy as regular Sage chakra, but Six Paths Sage Mode, just like any other Sage Mode, provides differing abilities to another. The Databook itself even attributes Naruto's reaction speed being equivalent to Madara's to his Six Paths Sage Mode, also saying that it surpasses Kurama Mode, so it's clear that it is better in every aspect.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

Six Paths Sage chakra may just be Six Paths chakra infused with the same nature energy as regular Sage chakra, but Six Paths Sage Mode, just like any other Sage Mode, provides differing abilities to another. The Databook itself even attributes Naruto's reaction speed being equivalent to Madara's to his Six Paths Sage Mode, also saying that it surpasses Kurama Mode, so it's clear that it is better in every aspect.

Sage mode in general gives standard abilities regardless of the type. 1) Enhanced reflexes and strength 2) Enhanced sensing. Other abilities may come along with these but they are generic for Sage mode itself. The Databook states that it surpasses Kurama Mode for the very said reason that to begin with Six Paths Sage mode requires Bijuu Chakra/Kurama and then Enhances the user with both Natural energy as regular SM and Six paths Sage chakra which is a stronger Chakra. It's stronger in the sense that the higher quality of chakra gives you much more powerful and stronger attacks as well as special perks and sensing too but in terms of the individuals actual reactions and speed it's the same as with Sage mode. Which is the reason why we never saw Naruto show speeds greater than BSM and if any of his reactions were better then it's only because of the enhanced sensing.

 

[Holy God]

Sage mode in general gives standard abilities regardless of the type. 1) Enhanced reflexes and strength 2) Enhanced sensing. Other abilities may come along with these but they are generic for Sage mode itself. The Databook states that it surpasses Kurama Mode for the very said reason that to begin with Six Paths Sage mode requires Bijuu Chakra/Kurama and then Enhances the user with both Natural energy as regular SM and Six paths Sage chakra which is a stronger Chakra. It's stronger in the sense that the higher quality of chakra gives you much more powerful and stronger attacks as well as special perks and sensing too but in terms of the individuals actual reactions and speed it's the same as with Sage mode. Which is the reason why we never saw Naruto show speeds greater than BSM and if any of his reactions were better then it's only because of the enhanced sensing.

You have to agree though, there'd be no point in saying Naruto had gained equal sensing speed to a Ten-Tails Host if it was not increased. I would also argue that he's faster with Six Paths Sage Mode (at full speed), but there's no concrete evidence for it except for the Kaguya feat, but that's a different circumstance.

 

[SasukeSixPack]

You have to agree though, there'd be no point in saying Naruto had gained equal sensing speed to a Ten-Tails Host if it was not increased. I would also argue that he's faster with Six Paths Sage Mode (at full speed), but there's no concrete evidence for it except for the Kaguya feat, but that's a different circumstance.

Greater Sensing = earlier reaction ≠ change in reflexes. You could but thats only theory if there was a dramatic change then you'd have alot more to go off of which means you're most likely wrong on that too

 

[LoZelda101]

No when Naruto uses SM while in BM it enhances the Cloaks/BM's abilities because he's using it along with BM. It doesn't mean his reactions will get better because what he is doing is utilizing the attributes from both powers at once. BM already made his reflexes >>> SM so adding SM to it wouldn't make it better that's why there wasn't a notable change in his reaction or speed after he got BSM when compared to BM. Sensing yes but in terms of compiling the abilities that's not how it works.

So lemme get what you're saying, that BSM only advantage over BM is simply using senjutsu and that's all? his reaction timing is the exact same? that doesn't make sense, what if there were a ninja with the exact same reflexes as BM naruto, then we give him SM. are you saying he wouldn't gain any enhanced reaction timing? the same enhanced reaction/sensory whatever that allowed SM naruto to parry the 3rd raikage with rasengan?

 

[SasukeSixPack]

So lemme get what you're saying, that BSM only advantage over BM is simply using senjutsu and that's all? his reaction timing is the exact same? that doesn't make sense, what if there were a ninja with the exact same reflexes as BM naruto, then we give him SM. are you saying he wouldn't gain any enhanced reaction timing?

Feats speak for themselves. If a Ninja had base reflexes as BM Naruto then SM would give them better reflexes than BM Naruto. The point is and i'll put it in a more understanding way...if a character has a reaction of 3 and SM enhances that to a 4 while BM enhances it to a 5, even if you have both as BSM they're reaction would still only be a 5 because SM only enhances it to 4 but they will have the other SM perks added to their abilities. Without it, if they only had BM then their reaction would also be a 5 but without the perks.

 

[Holy God]

Greater Sensing = earlier reaction ≠ change in reflexes. You could but thats only theory if there was a dramatic change then you'd have alot more to go off of which means you're most likely wrong on that too

I don't think you can ever measure reflexes, since that is involuntary movement and both times Madara sensed the attacker. Being unable to measure Naruto's speed though is simply a case of him fighting opponents with comparable speed, so it can't be directly juxtaposed to the weaker opponents he fought.

 

[LoZelda101]

Feats speak for themselves. If a Ninja had base reflexes as BM Naruto then SM would give them better reflexes than BM Naruto. The point is and i'll put it in a more understanding way...if a character has a reaction of 3 and SM enhances that to a 4 while BM enhances it to a 5, even if you have both as BSM they're reaction would still only be a 5 because SM only enhances it to 4 but they will have the other SM perks added to their abilities. Without it, if they only had BM then their reaction would also be a 5 but without the perks.

What I thought using your tool is that base naruto with the reaction of 3 will used kyuubi chakra mode to give him the mental/physical ability to react and dodge. that would give him a 4 which is how he dodged Ay. then when he mixes his kyuubi chakra with sage mode. it bumps it up to a 5. find it odd how the reaction enhancement only applies to base users. going by your statement I'm assuming you're implying that kcm naruto reacting to Ay had nothing to do with kcm? if so then base naruto should've been alot more stronger than he was prior.