[VS] Zabuza vs Mei

EZQ

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disturbing the lack of mei cqc feats in this manga.

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this is all i could find. lol but i'm pretty certain if zabuza had better cqc feats than mei,
then she shouldn't had lasted as long as she did against held back madara.
1- Mei's skills in cqc <<<<<<<<<<<< mei's skills in cqc while blinded by mist

That's all there is to it, and as i disagree with Mei being better in cqc than Zabuza where she has no feats on that category and relies on her 2 kekkei genkais, i won't touch that subject.
 

Icelerate

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@EZQ,

Zabuza has to get close to Mei to use silent killing but the type of mist near Mei will be acidic because it wouldn't have defused due to being close to the source. Being exposed to even a small amount of acid causes pain as shown by Sakura and Sasuke so Zabuza will make a grunt at the very least which gives Mei to opportunity to finish him off with one of her suiton. If he decides to blindside her with suiton, that immediately exposes his location and gets hard countered.

I'm wondering whether Zabuza's water clones are immune to acid mist because the water quantity of a clone is far greater than the acid it will be exposed to.
 

EZQ

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@EZQ,

Zabuza has to get close to Mei to use silent killing but the type of mist near Mei will be acidic because it wouldn't have defused due to being close to the source. Being exposed to even a small amount of acid causes pain as shown by Sakura and Sasuke so Zabuza will make a grunt at the very least which gives Mei to opportunity to finish him off with one of her suiton. If he decides to blindside her with suiton, that immediately exposes his location and gets hard countered.

I'm wondering whether Zabuza's water clones are immune to acid mist because the water quantity of a clone is far greater than the acid it will be exposed to.
I was waiting for this entrance.

What does the bold mean? Mei's mist is outside her body and that's it. Then it can dilute on Zabuza's water particles that will be next to mei too, since Zabuza covers the battlefield with it, especially next to the enemy. Plus the fact that how does she control the mist to stay close to her? She can't do that. At the kage summit, she increased the PH of her mist instead of making the acid not go where the kages are.

Underline: No, it was not a small quantity of acid. It was an enclosed space where the mist is concentrated. This is not the case, at all.

And if he decides to blindsid her with suiton FROM A LONG DISTANCE, He can throw the jutsu and then change locations. Mei will only see the jutsu when it's close to her, and Zabuza will have already changed his location. And if it's from close, he can have the clone do the jutsu.

And about the clones... the water in them is a lot, but they are clones after all. If they can't get affected by acid then they wouldn't be Zabuza's, they would be pieces of water that walk around.
 
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Icelerate

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What does the bold mean? Mei's mist is outside her body and that's it. Then it can dilute on Zabuza's water particles that will be next to mei too, since Zabuza covers the battlefield with it, especially next to the enemy. Plus the fact that how does she control the mist to stay close to her? She can't do that. At the kage summit, she increased the PH of her mist instead of making the acid not go where the kages are.
Mei is going to constantly emit acid mist from her mouth kind of like how it will be hot near a camp fire even if it is surrounded in cold weather.
Underline: No, it was not a small quantity of acid. It was an enclosed space where the mist is concentrated. This is not the case, at all.

And if he decides to blindsid her with suiton FROM A LONG DISTANCE, He can throw the jutsu and then change locations. Mei will only see the jutsu when it's close to her, and Zabuza will have already changed his location. And if it's from close, he can have the clone do the jutsu.
Sasuke was inside susanoo which means he was only exposed to a small amount of acid mist. Mei can hear water coming to her location from a long range even before she sees it. Unless you think Zabuza can make his water silent too. So as soon as Zabuza begins forming the jutsu, Mei hears it and prepares her own to counter. If we look at feats, Zabuza has no technique that can get Mei from long distance so he has to come in mid range. Proof that Zabuza's water clones are powerful enough to do jutsus of level.
And about the clones... the water in them is a lot, but they are clones after all. If they can't get affected by acid then they wouldn't be Zabuza's, they would be pieces of water that walk around.
That's true. I mean raiton kage bunshin Kakashi should theoretically be immune to a stab just like Enel from OP but this logic doesn't work with elemental kage bunshin.
 

TheSages456

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Acidic mist is a hard counter for Zabuza's mist+silent killing combo. He would start melting before he could even get close to Mei. She is also the superior Suiton user.
 

EZQ

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Mei is going to constantly emit acid mist from her mouth kind of like how it will be hot near a camp fire even if it is surrounded in cold weather.
Chemical reactions don't behave like heat lol. In normal pressure and temperature, they react in contact. As soon as Mei emits her mist, it reacts with Zabuza's. Mei can keep releasing it but as i already adressed, her limit of how much acid mist she can release should be below her limit of normal mist, not to mention that she can't keep the boil near her at her own will. So it will be DISPERSED + DILUTED.
Sasuke was inside susanoo which means he was only exposed to a small amount of acid mist.
Sasuke's ribcage clearly has space between the ribs for the mist to enter.

Mei can hear water coming to her location from a long range even before she sees it.
Yes, but she can hear it when the water already started to move ==> Zabuza already changed location

Unless you think Zabuza can make his water silent too. So as soon as Zabuza begins forming the jutsu, Mei hears it and prepares her own to counter.
Overrating Mei's reactions. She'll hear the jutsu FORMING tho it is made really fast (Kakashi finished the seals and said the name of the jutsu just an instant before Zabuza, and the jutsu just fired itself and Zabuza couldn't even launch his). So there's no form of Mei lauching her counter BEFORE Zabuza's is fired.
If we look at feats, Zabuza has no technique that can get Mei from long distance
Med range is enough. Mei still doesn't have the reaction to accomplish what you claim.

so he has to come in mid range. Proof that Zabuza's water clones are powerful enough to do jutsus of level.
When Zabuza made 10 clones, he said they were one tenth his power. While only one clone could handle Kakashi pretty well, and shitstomped Sasuke, who at the same time shitstomped Zabuza's 1/10th clones, so one clone should be able to roughly make the same jutsu. Kisame's water clones could make jutsu as well, and Kisame has only 30% of his chakra, and it was divided on 3 clones, and they still could make water prison and some other fodder water jutsus without breaking a sweat. Then we have Kakashi with raiton Kage bunshin (which is a normal kage bunshin infused with lightining by databook) able to use raikiri dog. Clones using jutsu is pretty underrated. If Zabuza uses fair enough chakra on his clone, he could pull it off. It's one attack he needs. Even if Zabuza's clones can't accomplish this, he can do this:

1- Sends a bunch of clones as sacrifices inside the acid mist to distract Mei even for a second
2- At the same time prepares the jutsu
3- Fires it and as i stated before, Mei having her counter ready by that point is impossible

The clash of the two water jutsus would disperse even more the already diluted and dispersed mist =Zabuza can get close range and finish it

That's true. I mean raiton kage bunshin Kakashi should theoretically be immune to a stab just like Enel from OP but this logic doesn't work with elemental kage bunshin.
Plus raiton Kage bunshin is a kage bunshin infused with lightining, so it's like the bunshins, weak AF and when it "explodes" it electrocutes. But anyways, they are certain types of clones that don't follow this rule, for example:

-Gaara's sand clone is in fact a bunch of sand moving, and won't dissapear for getting damage

-Hashirama's wood clone could still move and restrain juubito despite having half of his body taken away

But this rule doesn't aply to Zabuza's clone since one of them dissapeared by being stabbed by Kakashi and Sasuke.
 
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EZQ

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Chemical reactions don't behave like heat lol. In normal pressure and temperature, they react in contact. As soon as Mei emits her mist, it reacts with Zabuza's. Mei can keep releasing it but as i already adressed, his limit should be below her limit of normal mist, not to mention that she can't keep the boil near her at her own will. So it will be DISPERSED + DILUTED.

Sasuke's ribcage clearly has space between the ribs for the mist to enter.


Yes, but she can hear it when the water already started to move ==> Zabuza already changed location


Overrating Mei's reactions. She'll hear the jutsu FORMING tho it is made really fast (Kakashi finished the seals and said the name of the jutsu just an instant before Zabuza, and the jutsu just fired itself and Zabuza couldn't even launch his). So there's no form of Mei lauching her counter BEFORE Zabuza's is fired.

Med range is enough. Mei still doesn't have the reaction to accomplish what you claim.



When Zabuza made 10 clones, he said they were one tenth his power. While only one clone could handle Kakashi pretty well, and shitstomped Sasuke, who at the same time shitstomped Zabuza's 1/10th clones, so one clone should be able to roughly make the same jutsu. Kisame's water clones could make jutsu as well, and Kisame has only 30% of his chakra, and it was divided on 3 clones, and they still could make water prison and some other fodder water jutsus without breaking a sweat. Then we have Kakashi with raiton Kage bunshin (which is a normal kage bunshin infused with lightining by databook) able to use raikiri dog. Clones using jutsu is pretty underrated. If Zabuza uses fair enough chakra on his clone, he could pull it off. It's one attack he needs. Even if Zabuza's clones can't accomplish this, he can do this:

1- Sends a bunch of clones as sacrifices inside the acid mist to distract Mei even for a second
2- At the same time prepares the jutsu
3- Fires it and as i stated before, Mei having her counter ready by that point is impossible

The clash of the two water jutsus would disperse even more the already diluted and dispersed mist =Zabuza can get close range and finish it



Plus raiton Kage bunshin is a kage bunshin infused with lightining, so it's like the bunshins, weak AF and when it "explodes" it electrocutes. But anyways, they are certain types of clones that don't follow this rule, for example:

-Gaara's sand clone is in fact a bunch of sand moving, and won't dissapear for getting damage

-Hashirama's wood clone could still move and restrain juubito despite having half of his body taken away

But this rule doesn't aply to Zabuza's clone since one of them dissapeared by being stabbed by Kakashi and Sasuke.
Also Ice, Databook 1 lists bortex as a long ranged jutsu

look for suiton bakafuda or gakafuda something like tha
 

EZQ

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And for Kidgamer, from Databook 1 itself, the size of water dragon comes down to the user's skill and not how much chakra it's used.

NINJUTSU; Suiton: Suiryuudan no jutsu (Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet technique)
User: Momochi Zabuza
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B

Main text

A jutsu where a large amount of water hits the opponent with formidable might, dealing physical damage. It was named after the fact that the manipulated water takes the shape of a dragon. The ideal place to use it is near a body of water but if the caster's skill allows it, it is possible to use it even in a place where there is none. That said, the amount of water used will be in proportion with the caster's skill.

link: arutoforums.com/threads/databook-collection-thread-part-i.496343/page-2

just erase the space between the n and the a

Literal words of what i said earlier, Mei having more chakra than Zabuza based on the dragon thing is plain wrong, so lets say Mei can make as much normal mist Zabuza can (lol no), can she make enough acid mist so it'll still be effective on an open field where it disperses and it gets diluted by Zabuza's mist?
 
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BLAZE

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didn't Zabuza take like 40 something handseal to spew suiton dragon while Mei did make much gigantic one right after the gigantic water sprout after.Whelp diff between her and Zabuza
 

neosmith500

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You don't use that kind of logic when neji is involved dude lol
LMAO when did i ever bring a Neji to a Kage fight??

OT: I just gave a quick answer before reading any posts so im gonna read ur points because i know zabuza has the taijutsu advantage and silent killing due she has counters for that but interesting thread since im the one who reminded u how badass the demon is LOL..
 

EZQ

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LMAO when did i ever bring a Neji to a Kage fight??

OT: I just gave a quick answer before reading any posts so im gonna read ur points because i know zabuza has the taijutsu advantage and silent killing due she has counters for that but interesting thread since im the one who reminded u how badass the demon is LOL..
But it's that same tier logic that you dislike. Zabuza is elite jonnin level and i put him against a relatively weak kage anyways... and lmaoo dude Zabuza is my favo, it surprises me that you don't know that

didn't Zabuza take like 40 something handseal to spew suiton dragon while Mei did make much gigantic one right after the gigantic water sprout after.Whelp diff between her and Zabuza
Water dragon is 40 handseals while water bortex is 18, and Zabuza made water prison's handseals (8) fast enough behind behind Kakashi and Kakashi couldn't even move to dodge the water prison. So making 18 handseals while completely hidden is a joke to him.

And yes, Mei is an amazing suiton user while Zabuza is not. That alone does not determine the result of this match.
 

neosmith500

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But it's that same tier logic that you dislike. Zabuza is elite jonnin level and i put him against a relatively weak kage anyways... and lmaoo dude Zabuza is my favo, it surprises me that you don't know that

I see ur point but i do hope u see mine LOL Tier logic is important to me since im a bigger fan of P1 where Jonin and kage tiers actually meant something lol but i get u.

-Actually i remember Zabuza being ur fave from our debate with Hidan and Neji lol but u didn't remember how badass the Demon was and i did since im all knowing when it comes to P1 , jk lol.
 

EZQ

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I see ur point but i do hope u see mine LOL Tier logic is important to me since im a bigger fan of P1 where Jonin and kage tiers actually meant something lol but i get u.

-Actually i remember Zabuza being ur fave from our debate with Hidan and Neji lol but u didn't remember how badass the Demon was and i did since im all knowing when it comes to P1 , jk lol.
Yes tiers determine a lot of the battle. But in this case, Zabuza has counters for Mei, and the tier gap is not avismal so Zabuza could take it.

Im fully aware that if Kishimoto drew this fight, Mei would stomp. But if we work with what's been shown...
 

DrProof

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To be very honest, since this is Full Knowledge, and both candidates know of each other's arsenals, if Zabuza were to use Hidden Mist, and Mei were to surround herself in Acid Mist, then I can absolutely see Zabuza blitzing through the veil of acidic mist, OHKOing her with a beheading.

From what we've seen, in the manga, Mei's mist didn't cause severe burns to Sasuke immediately, then you configure Zabuza's pain threshold which is severly high, then factor in Zabuza is much more profound in the art of silent killing than Mei is.

I can absolutely see Zabuza assassinating Mei in that situation. However, there are multiple other ways to set this battle in Mei's for favor.

Zabuza's pain intolerance is what can win him this battle, if the battle plays out like multiple people in this thread have set forth.

EZQ is the new Shaneyyyy, but with better arguments lol.
 

EZQ

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To be very honest, since this is Full Knowledge, and both candidates know of each other's arsenals, if Zabuza were to use Hidden Mist, and Mei were to surround herself in Acid Mist, then I can absolutely see Zabuza blitzing through the veil of acidic mist, OHKOing her with a beheading.

From what we've seen, in the manga, Mei's mist didn't cause severe burns to Sasuke immediately, then you configure Zabuza's pain threshold which is severly high, then factor in Zabuza is much more profound in the art of silent killing than Mei is.

I can absolutely see Zabuza assassinating Mei in that situation. However, there are multiple other ways to set this battle in Mei's for favor.

Zabuza's pain intolerance is what can win him this battle, if the battle plays out like multiple people in this thread have set forth.

EZQ is the new Shaneyyyy, but with better arguments lol.
Thanks lol

I hadn't tought about the pain tolerance... he did kill gato with a kunai in his mouth and having his body shattered by blades tho. If the mist if diluted enough, he could take some burns..

But yeah, i severely changed the table towards Zabuza's favor with this conditions. Tho i found it funny that people came in saying "lol what is this" and no arguments at all
 

DrProof

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Thanks lol

I hadn't tought about the pain tolerance... he did kill gato with a kunai in his mouth and having his body shattered by blades tho. If the mist if diluted enough, he could take some burns..

But yeah, i severely changed the table towards Zabuza's favor with this conditions. Tho i found it funny that people came in saying "lol what is this" and no arguments at all
It's usually the smaller things that make the biggest impact in regards to a battles outcome. Especially in matchups that pertain to a weaker character vs a stronger one (by portrayal).

And you didn't really make it in Zabuza's favor tbh. I see it as in Mei's favor. The full knowledge works out for both, sure favoring Zabuza ever so slightly, but the distance you put between him, and Mei severly ups it in her favor thanks to her overall long-mid range versatility.
 

EZQ

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It's usually the smaller things that make the biggest impact in regards to a battles outcome. Especially in matchups that pertain to a weaker character vs a stronger one (by portrayal).

And you didn't really make it in Zabuza's favor tbh. I see it as in Mei's favor. The full knowledge works out for both, sure favoring Zabuza ever so slightly, but the distance you put between him, and Mei severly ups it in her favor thanks to her overall long-mid range versatility.
Yeah but in a mid-close range fight, Zabuza has less changes to dodge Mei's huge AoE attacks to safely put up the mist. Mei's advantage with long range attacks gets nullified if she can't pick where to attack.
 
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