[Discussion] Is Monkey D Garp?

chopstickchakra

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Luffy was dead angry and sure he will Kill Mellegan and Blackbeard during impel, he got fodderised :sdo:
Luffy didn't have a strength hype comparable or above Magellan like Garp did with Akainu. Magellan guarded the world's worst prisoners, ALL OF THEM. That's a lot of hype on his strength at the same time what had Luffy done comparable? At MF Garp was the legend who contested Roger and WB in their prime where as Akainu was the strongest Admiral of the time and beat up WB(Though an older version then the one Garp fought) The hype between Garp and Akainu at MF was much closer than Luffy and Magellan at ID so that's not really a solid counter.
 

chopstickchakra

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1. Image. The entire point of the war was to show the dominance and effectiveness of the Marines and WG, hence why they went with such an extravagant and public execution of such a dangerous criminal. That's why Sengoku had Aokiji and the other staff cut off video feeds multiple times during the war, and why parts of it was broadcasted in the first place. How would it look if a legend like Garp among the Marines attacked not only a fellow Marine, but an Admiral?

2. How do you know he didn't hold down Garp because Garp would have gotten himself killed? Just because he was confident that means that Garp was definitely going to win and kill Akainu? In that case, Enel, Lucci, Caesar, Buggy and Foxy all should be stronger than Luffy and and have all killed him when they fought right? Oh wait...
What does point 1 have to do with the topic? I don't understand the context with which you brought this into the conversation. Point 2, you get the impression from Sengoku's reactions. It's just his confidence, it's just his skill, it's just his resolve, it's just his hype that's all. Garp and Sengoku were portrayed to be the strongest 2 marines with the Admirals just below them. Also it wasn't confidence it was bloodlust the two are very different concepts. Lucci was confident against Luffy, Luffy was bloodlusted against Lucci for hurting Robin.
 

HashiraMadara

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What does point 1 have to do with the topic? I don't understand the context with which you brought this into the conversation. Point 2, you get the impression from Sengoku's reactions. It's just his confidence, it's just his skill, it's just his resolve, it's just his hype that's all. Garp and Sengoku were portrayed to be the strongest 2 marines with the Admirals just below them. Also it wasn't confidence it was bloodlust the two are very different concepts. Lucci was confident against Luffy, Luffy was bloodlusted against Lucci for hurting Robin.
What defences that Garp has around magma other than dodging and hitting back? Just as an honest question?
 

chopstickchakra

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What defences that Garp has around magma other than dodging and hitting back? Just as an honest question?
We don't know much about Garp but from what we've seen probably not much besides his haki. But having not really seen him who's to say whether that would be enough or not. Either way though that's still a perfectly workable defense. He does have one small advantage though(and this would really be determined by fight location I suppose) in he's not a DF user and the Marines seem to have a lot of the OP world's supply of sea stone. If the fight happened at a Marine base sea stone could come into play, though Garp's character likely wouldn't use it.
 

Punk Hazard

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What does point 1 have to do with the topic? I don't understand the context with which you brought this into the conversation. Point 2, you get the impression from Sengoku's reactions. It's just his confidence, it's just his skill, it's just his resolve, it's just his hype that's all. Garp and Sengoku were portrayed to be the strongest 2 marines with the Admirals just below them. Also it wasn't confidence it was bloodlust the two are very different concepts. Lucci was confident against Luffy, Luffy was bloodlusted against Lucci for hurting Robin.
The reason Sengoku held down Garp wasn't because Garp was definitely gonna kill Akainu and Sengoku did it to prevent that, it was to preserve the integrity and image of the Marines.

lol no, Sengoku and Garp did not receive that kind of portrayal at all.

So what? Bloodlust=guaranteed victory?
 

chopstickchakra

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The reason Sengoku held down Garp wasn't because Garp was definitely gonna kill Akainu and Sengoku did it to prevent that, it was to preserve the integrity and image of the Marines.

lol no, Sengoku and Garp did not receive that kind of portrayal at all.

So what? Bloodlust=guaranteed victory?

"The reason Sengoku held down Garp wasn't because Garp was definitely gonna kill Akainu"
That's your opinion despite the manga showing Sengoku holding Garp and Garp saying he'd kill Akainu. That's the only way shy of writing it out "Garp would kill Akainu" that the author can convey that message. By the author laying the images in the order he did and using the dialogue he did he implies had Sengoku not stopped Garp Akainu would be dead. Just because you disagree with that doesn't change it's intent.

Also if he did it to protect the Marines image then why wouldn't he have just cut the feeds like you pointed out he did throughout the war? It makes no sense as an argument to say he held Garp to protect the Marines' image when he could have just erased the images. You're contradicting yourself trying to come up with a definitive for a hypothetical.

Sengoku absolutely did by being the Fleet Admiral an honor that now goes to Akainu(Akainu is now undoubtedly, unarguably one of the top 2 active Marines). And Garp goes without saying how he was portrayed to be the top of the Marines, he was even asked to be Admiral multiple times showing he was = or >(even if just slightly) the 3 Admirals at MF.

Did I say it always = guaranteed win? Or was I speaking of a particular instance? Also in general in manga especially shonen if the bloodlusted person is on the side of the protagonist then it's statistically more skewered in their favor of a victory so take that for what you will.
 
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Punk Hazard

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"The reason Sengoku held down Garp wasn't because Garp was definitely gonna kill Akainu"
That's your opinion despite the manga showing Sengoku holding Garp and Garp saying he'd kill Akainu. That's the only way shy of writing it out "Garp would kill Akainu" that the author can convey that message. By the author laying the images in the order he did and using the dialogue he did he implies had Sengoku not stopped Garp Akainu would be dead. Just because you disagree with that doesn't change it's intent.
You really think this means shit, don't you? I suppose if I link all the images of Lucci, Crocodile, Enel, Doflamingo, Law, Smoker, Foxy, Kuro, and Kuma saying they would kill and/or defeat Luffy, it's proof that they did or had the capability of doing so when they did it right?

Garp being confident and bloodlusted to the point that he believes he can kill Akainu does not in fact mean he CAN kill Akainu. Shocking, I know, that saying you can do something doesn't always equal being able to do it.

Also if he did it to protect the Marines image then why wouldn't he have just cut the feeds like you pointed out he did throughout the war?It makes no sense as an argument to say he held Garp to protect the Marines' image when he could have just erased the images. You're contradicting yourself trying to come up with a definitive for a hypothetical.
Oh yeah cuz it'd be great for the other Marines to see Garp the Hero fighting Admiral Akainu too, right? Perfectly okay

Sengoku absolutely did by being the Fleet Admiral an honor that now goes to Akainu(Akainu is now undoubtedly, unarguably one of the top 2 active Marines).
Fleet Admiral isn't a rank of strength, it's a rank of political authority in the Marines. A Fleet Admiral is just an Admiral with the leadership skills to qualify for a higher position of authority.

And Garp goes without saying how he was portrayed to be the top of the Marines, he was even asked to be Admiral multiple times showing he was = or >(even if just slightly) the 3 Admirals at MF.
That doesn't prove at all that he's just as strong as those three or stronger, that just shows he qualifies for the position of being an Admiral.

Did I say it always = guaranteed win?
Yup.
Or was I speaking of a particular instance?
Nothing sets this particular instance apart from any other instance of "I will kill that character!" So yes, if in this instance it's proof character A would kill character B, then it's proof in every other instance of the same thing.

Also in general in manga especially shonen if the bloodlusted person is on the side of the protagonist then it's statistically more skewered in their favor of a victory so take that for what you will.
It's time to stop
 

Bogard

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Luffy will be pirate king level by end of serie, not yonko level
That said when talking about Garp, it depends if you're referring to his current state or prime?
If latter, then certainly yeah, if former not sure. Depends on how weakened his old state made him be especially now that he is an inactive marine
 

Punk Hazard

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Luffy will be pirate king level by end of serie, not yonko level
That said when talking about Garp, it depends if you're referring to his current state or prime?
If latter, then certainly yeah, if former not sure. Depends on how weakened his old state made him be especially now that he is an inactive marine
How can he be Pirate King level and also not Pirate King level at the same time?
 

MickNerks

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From you all I really want to know "WHY ARE YOU CONCLUDING THAT GARP WAS CAPABALE OF MURDERING AKAINU"
Because Garp has superior haki (Pirate King Level Armandment Haki) and has displayed whitebeard level destruction capabilities with his bare fist.
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chopstickchakra

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You really think this means shit, don't you? I suppose if I link all the images of Lucci, Crocodile, Enel, Doflamingo, Law, Smoker, Foxy, Kuro, and Kuma saying they would kill and/or defeat Luffy, it's proof that they did or had the capability of doing so when they did it right?

Garp being confident and bloodlusted to the point that he believes he can kill Akainu does not in fact mean he CAN kill Akainu. Shocking, I know, that saying you can do something doesn't always equal being able to do it.
Of course it means something you moron that's why the author bothered to include it in his work. You're just so committed to refuting any evidence that is contrary to your point of view that you try to marginalize things even when they come directly from the manga.

You're only trying so hard to trivialize it because it stands against your opinion. None of those examples are even the same they weren't angered like Garp was they were arrogant that's not the same and if you still can't understand that I can't help you.


Oh yeah cuz it'd be great for the other Marines to see Garp the Hero fighting Admiral Akainu too, right? Perfectly okay
As if it was any worse then them seeing Garp go to kill Akainu and the FA having to stop him? Good job deflecting the point of your answer from the initial point btw. You're getting good at that. You said it was about protecting the Marines image and cutting feeds initially, not about protecting morale like you're claiming here now.


Fleet Admiral isn't a rank of strength, it's a rank of political authority in the Marines. A Fleet Admiral is just an Admiral with the leadership skills to qualify for a higher position of authority.
Yeah ok buddy, keep convincing yourself the Marines don't choose their strongest enlisted to be FA. I like how you're trying to downplay FA despite the 3 we've known to have the seat all being beasts. Also Sengoku was said to be one of the major figures during Rogers time, but you're right he wasn't portrayed to be strong, nah.

That doesn't prove at all that he's just as strong as those three or stronger, that just shows he qualifies for the position of being an Admiral.
What do you think the determining factors are in appointing an Admiral? Strength, primarily. That's why they got Issho and Ryogoku
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Well this just helps prove you're an instigative brat who likes to start arguments over non existent claims with poor comprehension. Go ahead and find me that quote where I said being bloodlusted always means victory for every character ever across all mediums. I'll wait.

Nothing sets this particular instance apart from any other instance of "I will kill that character!" So yes, if in this instance it's proof character A would kill character B, then it's proof in every other instance of the same thing.
It's like arguing a child. Sure, let's ignore any and all subtleties that would come in each individual fight and say if you think something for one case you have to think it for every case. strength levels, emotions all of that would come into play. Most of the instances it happens it's a villain not the protagonist which already sets this time apart from the vast majority, most times the power levels are very far apart which again sets this instance apart from the norm, most times the one making the claim is in one of two emotion states; frustration/annoyance or arrogance, Garp was neither.

It's time to stop
Oh look another dismissive non-reply from Riker deflecting from addressing the topic because it doesn't support his claim and he has no actual defense to it.


How can he be Pirate King level and also not Pirate King level at the same time?
Yonkou and PK aren't the same thing. The Yonkou seats weren't even created until after Roger's death iirc. Arguably the strongest Yonkou(WB) couldn't match(though he was the closest to) Roger. I know you like to act like PK isn't largely focused on strength but it's a big part of it and PK>Yonkou. Roger was able to stay free so long and finish the GL because he had the strength to avoid capture and the desire to find it.
 
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Punk Hazard

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Of course it means something you moron that's why the author bothered to include it in his work. You're just so committed to refuting any evidence that is contrary to your point of view that you try to marginalize things even when they come directly from the manga.

You're only trying so hard to trivialize it because it stands against your opinion. None of those examples are even the same they weren't angered like Garp was they were arrogant that's not the same and if you still can't understand that I can't help you.
So because Oda included it in his work, it's automatically true? Because other things included in Oda's work were:

1. Enel saying his will alone spawned the entirety of the One Piece universe

2. Moriah saying he'd crush Luffy

3. Zoro saying he'd kill Luffy

4. Law telling Smoker he'd destroy Luffy

5. Kuma saying he'd turn Luffy into the World Government

6. Magellan saying he'd stop anyone from breaking out of Impel Down

7. Whitebeard saying Ace would leave Marineford alive

8. Crocodile saying he'd become King of Alabasta

9. Doflamingo saying he was a good that could never be defeated by humans like Luffy and Law

Should I go on?

As if it was any worse then them seeing Garp go to kill Akainu and the FA having to stop him? Good job deflecting the point of your answer from the initial point btw. You're getting good at that. You said it was about protecting the Marines image and cutting feeds initially, not about protecting morale like you're claiming here now.
No one was paying attention to those two at the time because all of the attention was either on fighting or the dying son of the Pirate King right in front of them. Garp attacking Akainu would have brough major attention towards them.

Yeah ok buddy, keep convincing yourself the Marines don't choose their strongest enlisted to be FA. I like how you're trying to downplay FA despite the 3 we've known to have the seat all being beasts. Also Sengoku was said to be one of the major figures during Rogers time, but you're right he wasn't portrayed to be strong, nah.
They don't. The fact that both Akainu and Aokiji were NOMINATED shows that they don't. Akainu and Aokiji simply chose to settle it with a duel since both would make great leaders. The very fact that Aokiji, the Admiral, pushed Akainu, the Fleet Admiral, to an extreme diff, gruelish match shows that the difference between an Admiral and Fleet Admiral isn't as large as you're trying to make it out to be.

What do you think the determining factors are in appointing an Admiral? Strength, primarily.
And also the ability to lead, since Admirals need to also make political decisions and run an entire military organization.


Well this just helps prove you're an instigative brat who likes to start arguments over non existent claims with poor comprehension. Go ahead and find me that quote where I said being bloodlusted always means victory for every character ever across all mediums. I'll wait.
By claiming that Garp's bloodlust means it's a fact that he would have killed Akainu, you are de facto claiming that any instance of extreme bloodlust means a guaranteed kill because nothing sets Garp's bloodlust apart from the bloodlust of other characters.

It's like arguing a child. Sure, let's ignore any and all subtleties that would come in each individual fight and say if you think something for one case you have to think it for every case. strength levels, emotions all of that would come into play. Most of the instances it happens it's a villain not the protagonist which already sets this time apart from the vast majority, most times the power levels are very far apart which again sets this instance apart from the norm, most times the one making the claim is in one of two emotion states; frustration/annoyance or arrogance, Garp was neither
.

There are no subleties in the instance of Garp's bloodlust that exist outside of your imagination.

Oh look another dismissive non-reply from Riker deflecting from addressing the topic because it doesn't support his claim and he has no actual defense to it.
Right, because "an author of this work doing this means Oda is also doing it" is a good argument.


Yonkou and PK aren't the same thing. The Yonkou seats weren't even created until after Roger's death iirc. Arguably the strongest Yonkou(WB) couldn't match(though he was the closest to) Roger. I know you like to act like PK isn't largely focused on strength but it's a big part of it and PK>Yonkou. Roger was able to stay free so long and finish the GL because he had the strength to avoid capture and the desire to find it.
Yonko and PK aren't the same thing, but they're on the same general level. It was also said that Whitebeard and Roger were even in strength, so there goes that part of your argument.

"PK>Yonko" is false.
 

chopstickchakra

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So because Oda included it in his work, it's automatically true? Because other things included in Oda's work were:

1. Enel saying his will alone spawned the entirety of the One Piece universe
Not even combat related.

2. Moriah saying he'd crush Luffy
Wasn't bloodlusted

3. Zoro saying he'd kill Luffy
Wasn't bloodlusted

4. Law telling Smoker he'd destroy Luffy
A character saying an outright lie in the story isn't the same as hyperbole.

5. Kuma saying he'd turn Luffy into the World Government
A character saying an outright lie in the story isn't the same as hyperbole.

6. Magellan saying he'd stop anyone from breaking out of Impel Down
wasn't bloodlusted

7. Whitebeard saying Ace would leave Marineford alive
Only one of your examples that fits but WB technically succeeded in freeing Ace, the only reason Ace didn't leave was Ace it wasn't technically WB failing to do what he said because he couldn't take into account Ace throwing his life away once it was saved. But you'll ignore that and only focus on the aspects of it that help your point of view so...

8. Crocodile saying he'd become King of Alabasta
Wasn't bloodlusted

9. Doflamingo saying he was a good that could never be defeated by humans like Luffy and Law

Should I go on?
Wasn't bloodlusted

Seriously those are terrible examples since half aren't even the same scenario(battle) and most are statements of arrogance not anger and none of them were from an enraged opponent. Also none of those instances are coming from the protagonist which plays a heavy role on who wins and loses in fiction. And the biggest flaw with this counter is those are all situations where Oda actually went on to correct the statements, this time that didn't happen. There is no resolution to the statement. claiming something is hyperbole when it's not shown to be just because you disagree with it is ridiculous.

No one was paying attention to those two at the time because all of the attention was either on fighting or the dying son of the Pirate King right in front of them. Garp attacking Akainu would have brough major attention towards them.
They noticed as soon as Garp moved, they knew Sengoku was holding him down from attacking Akainu. Yes it would have brought more attention but there was already attention, Marines already saw the dissent. You're acting as if they were in some remote corner of MF hiding in shadows when they were a few dozen feet behind Akainu, people saw.

They don't. The fact that both Akainu and Aokiji were NOMINATED shows that they don't. Akainu and Aokiji simply chose to settle it with a duel since both would make great leaders. The very fact that Aokiji, the Admiral, pushed Akainu, the Fleet Admiral, to an extreme diff, gruelish match shows that the difference between an Admiral and Fleet Admiral isn't as large as you're trying to make it out to be.
They chose the two strongest and the winner got the seat. How again does that not reinforce the notion Marines give FA seat to their strongest in service Admiral? Also technically the WG only chose Akainu, Sengoku had recommended Aokiji but the WG chose Akainu instead. Aokiji challenged their decision and challenged Akainu for the spot he was already given so technically the WG nominated their top Admiral for the FA seat.

And also the ability to lead, since Admirals need to also make political decisions and run an entire military organization.
Yes and also, notice that and also meaning even you subconsciously acknowledged it's not the primary focus. Admirals need strength first since they have WG and FA's to lead them.


By claiming that Garp's bloodlust means it's a fact that he would have killed Akainu, you are de facto claiming that any instance of extreme bloodlust means a guaranteed kill because nothing sets Garp's bloodlust apart from the bloodlust of other characters.
No, that's just how you want to see it because you like to be polarizing and act as if things have to exist wholly in one of two forms and can never share characteristics, "It must exist in this frame that supports my idea or it must exist in this frame which I call wrong" Most other examples of bloodlust you can even bring up are from antagonists whereas Garp would be the protagonist in this case, for an accurate comparison you'd have to find instances of the protagonist having a bloodlust towards his/her enemy then losing.

There are no subleties in the instance of Garp's bloodlust that exist outside of your imagination.
Everything I listed is why his situation isn't the same as any of the scenarios you presented as the standard.

Right, because "an author of this work doing this means Oda is also doing it" is a good argument.
Yeah it's called precedent, heard of it?

Yonko and PK aren't the same thing, but they're on the same general level. It was also said that Whitebeard and Roger were even in strength, so there goes that part of your argument.

"PK>Yonko" is false.
Same general level yes but with PK edging out every Yonko bar WB who's gone. Just like Aokiji and Akainu are the same general level but Akainu>Aokiji. If no Yonkou can beat him then how is he anything other than>yonkou?
 
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MickNerks

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Luffy third gear >>> Chinjao, does that mean he has Pirate King Level Haki :sdo:?
I said Pirate King Levl haki because he fought with Roger and had he not had just as powerful haki (or close to it) I doubt they would be rivals.

Luffy and Garp have different feats.

Garp destroyed a weapon (Chinjao's Head) that could split continents in two and destroyed multiple mountains like they were punching bags.

Luffy fought a who already lost the strength he had in his prime (thanks to Garp). Chinjao was no where near as powerful against Luffy as he had been against Garp.
 
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