Text Debate: Who was right? (About Madara's Rinnegan)

[Magnolius]

Okay, so a friend and I were having a small debate about his original character in role play, called Rikuto.

Rikuto has rinnegan because he is the experiment Orochimaru developed by crossing Naruto and Sasuke's DNA. I told him that Rikuto could not have a rinnegan, because he had to prior dojutsu in his eyes before rinnegan.

Analyze the debate, consider the arguments made on both sides and tell me who is right. Because I honestly don't know.

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Plain Text:

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Me: Did Rikuto have Sharingan before Rinnegan?

Kal: No.

Me: Did he have any form of dojutsu?

Kal: No. He wasn't even a Shinobi before he had Rinnegan.

Me: So, he can't have Rinnegan.

Kal: He can

Me: Explain

Kal: He's the byproduct of Orochimaru's interest in not only Sasuke, but Naruto as the jinchuriki of the nine tails.

Me: Mhm, I heard. Continue.

Kal: Orochimaru used countless infants to attempt and develop a clone (much like what he did with Shin Uchiha) that carried the chakra of both Sasuke and Naruto, since a newborn's chakra system is so malleable.

Me: Mhm

Kal: Each subject died due to chakra poisoning, until he decided to integrate not only their (Naruto and Sasuke's) chakra but some of their genetic coding into an especially undeveloped child, a premature birth.

Kal: The assistance of the genetic coding allowed the chakra to flow and eventually mix more smoothly

Kal: And it isn't the sharingan which evolves into the Rinnegan, it's simply the mixture of Indra and Ashura's chakra.

Me: No. A dojutsu does not form from nothingness. I requires you have a dojutsu already. In order to level it to Rinnegan.

Kal: And where are you getting this information? Considering the Sage of Six paths certainly didn't have Dojutsu when he manifested it. It's not the Sharingan that matures, it's the combination of Indra and Ashura's chakra to form Hagaromo's chakra. This was explained in the manga.

Me: In Madara's case, he had Sharingan. Mixing his indra chakra with some ashura chakra resulted in the manifestation of Rinnegan.

Kal: In Madara's case. But Hagaromo himself, the Sage of Six Paths, just manifested the rinnegan, and the offspring of his mother's Rinne Sharingan.

Me: Hagaromo's chakra doesn't give you rinnegan.

Kal: Yes, it does.

Me: Naruto had half of it, and it resulted not in Rinnegan, but in body enhancements. It only resulted in rinnegan for Sasuke. Who, whocker, had sharingan.

Kal: Because Naruto received the Yang portion of Hagaromo's chakra. Naruto received the mirror of Ashura's inherited power from Hagaromo. Which was, shocker, the Sages Body. Sasuke received the mirror of Indra's power, which was the chakra and eyes.

Me: So?

Kal: Hence, Naruto wouldn't get Rinnegan.

Me: Because he doesn't have eye abilities to begin with.

Kal: Exactly. Naruto got the Sages Body. And combining Naruto AND Sasuke's dna in the infant Rikuto, Orochimaru combined Indra and Ashura, A.K.A the body and the eyes. So Instead of manifesting sharingan, he manifested Rinnegan with sharingan attributes.

Me: Good convo.

He was dominating the debate the entire time, and I didn't know if I was right or wrong. He did have a lot of good points. Tell me, who was right? Are the abilities of his original character plausible? Is the back story plausible?

 

[NarutoX28]

He's wrong. Hagoromo never had the Sharingan, hence why the Sharingan are considered the Uchiha's eyes whereas the Rinnegan is known as Rikudou's eyes.

 

[Magnolius]

He's wrong. Hagoromo never had the Sharingan, hence why the Sharingan are considered the Uchiha's eyes whereas the Rinnegan is known as Rikudou's eyes.

Did you even read?

 

[Insomniac Fueled Suicide]

I would say your friend was right because it doesn't necessarily require dojutsu all it requires is both chakras.

 

[davidou]

Nowhere it is said in the manga that you need a dojoutsu to be able to awaken the rinnegan, also nowhere it is said that you don't need a dojoutsu to awaken the rinnegan.
So both of you are wrong, you are wrong claiming unproved things (possible scenaris).
You 2 are talking about 2 probable hypothesis that both can be true and untrue.

I like the idea that Ashura+Indra's chakra gives Hagoromo's chakra and gives the ability to use every jutsu Hagoromo masters, including rinnengan dojoutsu.
I prefer your friend's idea.
I also like his idea that a simple human can be improved with a chakra network allowing him to awake the rinnegan with Ashura and Indra's chakra implantation.

 

[Rohan]

He is correct you are wrong.

You don't need Sharingan to awaken Rinnegan, you need Hagoromo's chakra.

Naruto has Rinnegan, it is on his back; Madara, Obito and Hagoromo all had it.

The Rinnegan is manifested on the body as well as the eyes.

His only mistake is saying that Hagoromo divided his chakra, that didn't happen; Hagoromo only divided the seals. The abundance of Indra and Ashura chakra resulted in Yin dominating Yang - Sasuke awakens Rinnegan Eye not Body Rinnegan and Yang dominating Yin - Naruto awakens Body Rinnegan not Rinnegan Eye.

Hagoromo has a perfect balance of Yin and Yang that's why he has both Rinnegan Eye and Rinnegan Body.

If Hagoromo did divide his chakra then Rinnegan would not have awakened in Naruto and Sasuke cause Yin and Yang together make up Rinnegan.

 

[Magnolius]

He is correct you are wrong.

You don't need Sharingan to awaken Rinnegan, you need Hagoromo's chakra.

Naruto has Rinnegan, it is on his back; Madara, Obito and Hagoromo all had it.

The Rinnegan is manifested on the body as well as the eyes.

His only mistake is saying that Hagoromo divided his chakra, that didn't happen; Hagoromo only divided the seals. The abundance of Indra and Ashura chakra resulted in Yin dominating Yang - Sasuke awakens Rinnegan Eye not Body Rinnegan and Yang dominating Yin - Naruto awakens Body Rinnegan not Rinnegan Eye.

Hagoromo has a perfect balance of Yin and Yang that's why he has both Rinnegan Eye and Rinnegan Body.

If Hagoromo did divide his chakra then Rinnegan would not have awakened in Naruto and Sasuke cause Yin and Yang together make up Rinnegan.

I was just confused because Sasuke Base is going around saying that you need a to have a dojutsu in order to manifest the rinnegan. (if you're a transmigrant using another transmigrants chakra).

 

[SenseiSama]

Hagoromo wasn't born with a Sharingan, it's Indra's KKG and originally comes from the Juubi. Indra inherited Hagoromo's chakra genes, but the eye itself doesn't come from the Sage.

You need a dojutsu to awaken the Rinnegan because Indra was the one who inherited the DNA for Hagoromo's spiritual energy and the eye chakra is produced in the optic nerves instead of the body, it's the same rules for EMS where you need the eyes instead of chakra alone.

When Madara used Obito's eye it didn't evolve into a Rinnegan, when he used another Sharingan during Obito's rehabilitation he didn't awaken a Rinnegan, you specifically need the eyes of Indra's transmigrants because they contain the chakra with the spiritual energy he inherited from the Sage.

 

[davidou]

I was just confused because Sasuke Bae is going around saying that you need a to have a dojutsu in order to manifest the rinnegan. (if you're a transmigrant using another transmigrants chakra).

It is the idea of a fan, fans can't reason.
Nowhere the manga says what he says...He is wrong claiming unproved things, just don't listen to him..

 

[Magnolius]

When Madara used Obito's eye it didn't evolve into a Rinnegan, when he used another Sharingan during Obito's rehabilitation he didn't awaken a Rinnegan, you specifically need the eyes of Indra's transmigrants because they contain the chakra with the spiritual energy he inherited from the Sage.

Rinnegan didn't form, in all those examples you gave, because Madara didn't activate it. When Madara was an Edo, he had his EMS, despite being able to use Rinnegan. He had to manually activate Rinnegan in order for it to form in his eyes.

 

[Rohan]

I was just confused because Sasuke Base is going around saying that you need a to have a dojutsu in order to manifest the rinnegan. (if you're a transmigrant using another transmigrants chakra).

I think just like Madara Sasuke doesn't get the full picture. Care to show the manga panel where he says that?

 

[SenseiSama]

Rinnegan didn't form, in all those examples you gave, because Madara didn't activate it. When Madara was an Edo, he had his EMS, despite being able to use Rinnegan. He had to manually activate Rinnegan in order for it to form in his eyes.

You don't activate it, it evolves and evolution of the eyes requires the DNA for dojutsu which Senju and Uzumaki don't have. You need the transmigrant's eyes because dojutsu chakra is produced in the optic nerves as Tobirama already stated.

Having Ashura and Indra's chakra alone doesn't grant the Rinnegan otherwise Madara would have activated a new Rinnegan with Obito's eye which he didn't.

Instead of activating a dojutsu like you mention, he went to retrieve his original eye from Kamui land which proves your assumption wrong.

Furthermore, when Obito was refusing to hand the Rinnegan back Madara planned on getting Sasuke's eyes instead of stealing a random pair of eyes from someone, which further suggests you need a transmigrant's eye.

Obito had Rikudou chakra as a JuubiJin yet couldn't awaken the Rinnegan, Naruto received Hagoromo's chakra yet didn't awaken the Rinnegan, therefore only the eyes containing Indra's chakra can evolve into Hagoromo's dojutsu.

 

[NarutoX28]

Did you even read?

Yeah, I mixed you guys both up.

I was at school, so I skimmed through that post.

 

[Vulpepe]

Did you even read?

no sense is being made in this thread!!!

nice fanfic

you wrong and right bro

23% right 76 % wrong!!!

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

You don't activate it, it evolves and evolution of the eyes requires the DNA for dojutsu which Senju and Uzumaki don't have. You need the transmigrant's eyes because dojutsu chakra is produced in the optic nerves as Tobirama already stated.

Having Ashura and Indra's chakra alone doesn't grant the Rinnegan otherwise Madara would have activated a new Rinnegan with Obito's eye which he didn't.

Instead of activating a dojutsu like you mention, he went to retrieve his original eye from Kamui land which proves your assumption wrong.

Furthermore, when Obito was refusing to hand the Rinnegan back Madara planned on getting Sasuke's eyes instead of stealing a random pair of eyes from someone, which further suggests you need a transmigrant's eye.

Obito had Rikudou chakra as a JuubiJin yet couldn't awaken the Rinnegan, Naruto received Hagoromo's chakra yet didn't awaken the Rinnegan, therefore only the eyes containing Indra's chakra can evolve into Hagoromo's dojutsu.

I agree with you with mostly everything, however the reason why Madara wanted Sasuke's eyes was not because he was a transmigrant (in fact, Madara didn't even know this) but rather because Sasuke's eyes possessed similar aspects to his original eyes. The "Straight Tomoe" he called them.


As for Naruto, Hagoromo specifically split his power evenly between them, giving Naruto his Senjutsu and Sasuke his eyes. Ergo he gave them BOTH Yin and Yang chakra but he split how they formed in the two. Mind you, I doubt the Rinnegan would've formed even if he didn't do this. It is heavily implied as you say that Rinnegan equals "Indra's eyes". It could be a thing of not having enough pure Rikudou Chakra in Obito's case, as the Chakra he received from the Juubi was Senjutsu chakra (nature energy) instead of Hagoromo's literal power....but....its best not to speculate with that and just make the assumption that its the transmigrant's eyes. Just as one needs Ashura's body to handle his powers you need Indra's actual eyes and nerves to handle said powers (Non-Uchiha can have the Sharingan but their eye pathways can't handle it to the same extent as the Uchiha, thus this would be the same with other evolutions).

He is correct you are wrong.

You don't need Sharingan to awaken Rinnegan, you need Hagoromo's chakra.

Naruto has Rinnegan, it is on his back; Madara, Obito and Hagoromo all had it.

The Rinnegan is manifested on the body as well as the eyes.

His only mistake is saying that Hagoromo divided his chakra, that didn't happen; Hagoromo only divided the seals. The abundance of Indra and Ashura chakra resulted in Yin dominating Yang - Sasuke awakens Rinnegan Eye not Body Rinnegan and Yang dominating Yin - Naruto awakens Body Rinnegan not Rinnegan Eye.

Hagoromo has a perfect balance of Yin and Yang that's why he has both Rinnegan Eye and Rinnegan Body.

If Hagoromo did divide his chakra then Rinnegan would not have awakened in Naruto and Sasuke cause Yin and Yang together make up Rinnegan.

There is no 'Body Rinnegan", that's a symbol on the Rikudou clothes that is not actually a Rinnegan nor does it appear so. Hagoromo's power is Rikudou Senjutsu and the Rinnegan, they're not the same thing.

It was never implied to be the abundance of Indra and Ashura chakra's but rather Hagoromo deciding to split his power evenly between them, I mean, Rikudou Senjutsu wasn't even Ashura's original power in the first place but rather power he was later given (we don't even know much about the form he had) by Hagoromo. He divided his power but not his Chakra (Rikudou Senjutsu and Rinnegaan are both Six Paths powers, Six Paths Chakra is Yin-Yang powers and Chakra).

Hagoromo was specifically born with not just his Chakras but with the necessary pathways and body for both powers. Can a non-Uchiha awaken the Sharingan if given their Chakra? Can a non-Hyuuga awaken the Byakugan if they're given their Chakra? No they cannot. The Uchiha and Hyuuga are specifically born with Chakra pathways in their optic nerves that allow them to use their Dojutsu, this doesn't change through evolved Dojutsu either. Hagoromo never actually "awakened" the Rinnegan, he was "born" with it. This is because he was born with the Chakra pathways in the optic nerves already there and his body possessing its power already (inheriting it from Kaguya). The Manga shows us that despite the Chakra's of Uchiha and Senju's being handed out (also Ashura's Chakra) that people that were't born with said power can't use it to the same extent nor does it naturally create itself within their bodies. This is why non-Senju never attain the true strength of their body or non-Uchiha never gain the true power of their eyes.