Itachi is the most unrealistic character in NV

[lndra]

Not sure tbh

 

[Chie]

^ Chie at it again with her weak Itachi defense force.

My "defense" is only as weak or strong as Kishimoto's. Take that as you will.

Besides, you should have expected this. If a Sasuke thread is a flashing signal to you, then an Itachi thread is a signal to me.

 

[Tyris]

I'm going to leave it to y'all to discus, but I'll just name a few things.

There are psychopaths in the word like Madara and Orochimaru.
There are young people who go down the wrong path and become criminals. sasuke, sasori, etc
There are schizophrenics like obito and gaara.
There are terrorists (deidara).
There are dictators like saddam, Stalin, etc like danzo.
There are people who love attention due to being ostracized NARUTO.

And so on and so on, Kakashi is also very realistic as he's a good example of how a good person deals with losses. All the kages have fairly realistic personalities, even other prodigies have had a matching personality and goal.

Itachi was rushed Af, when kishi wanted to change him to a good guy, sure he had a pretty hard life, but compared to people in nv and even billions irl it really wasn't the worst childhood ever. He killed his own clan and sacrificed himself, and there are different ways to protect his little brother, there's absolutely nobody who would just chose to end their future for a village that ****ed him over and took advantage of his passive nature, he didn't even get any rewards or benefits from killing his family, the least he could have done is take Sasuke and leave the village and stay out of it (maybe warn elders about details if he wants the uchihas to lose so bad) then stay away for a while till it's over. And instead of talking to Sasuke he makes him hate him so he can get stronger, horrible writing.

you've got m'Lord all wrong

In Chie we trust.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

I was summoned?! Okay, whatever happens in this thread is now your fault.



Okay, let's have a fun discussion.


Madara rambled on about being so for his clan but when things got tough, he left them. He could have just killed Tobirama instead as he was strong enough to & take the Hokage seat or if he didn't do the latter, at least his clan would be safer under anyone else really. He didn't. He instead opted to attack the village repeatedly which led more people to generalize about the Uchiha. Counterproductive.

Madara also rambled on about bringing peace but enjoyed "crushing skulls". Contradictory.

Orochimaru dropped his goal of destroying the village (and we never know why he wanted to) and is now considered a relatively "okay" guy despite all of his crimes (human experimentation, baby killing, etc).



Obito and Gaara both changed rather easily due to Naruto's speeches. No real therapy or medication required.



I haven't met anyone on the level of Naruto as far as attention seeking goes. What person would hunt down someone they only knew for 7 months and scream at wanting to acknowledge them.



Kakashi supported the same ninja system which led to his father's suicide when his father was apparently everything to him as a child. He is by far one of the most unrealistic characters in this manga.



A full manga volume, numerous manga chapters afterwards the reveal over the course of 6 years, two novels, and an anime adaptation is hardly rushed.

I have never heard of any 13 yr old double agent who had to kill his/her family in real life. No, there is no "worse" childhood. Losing one's parent is already painful but actually having to kill them and live with that sin? On another level that you and no one else on this forum can fathom.

No, there were not other ways to protect Sasuke or keep him sane with a purpose.

You mention running away like a coward would be better? You say he should have taken Sasuke with him? Can Sasuke enter Akatsuki... no. Can Itachi find any other place... no, Tobi's offer is what kept him from being homeless. if Itachi took Sasuke with him, he'd need a way to acquire funds. How would he do that? He can't go to any village, none will trust him with his new status. This is not ideal at all.

He didn't want the Uchiha to lose- he wanted them to negotiate which they rejected the very notion of. As a result, they died so that further people would not. He was not confident that they would win.

We're all entitled to our own opinions (hence why you made this thread and I can discuss mine with you too as can anyone else), but bad writing? It was very well-received both by the fandom in general and critics. Unlike other reveals such as Tobi's unmasking or the Sage fiasco.



*Age 7

Nature and nurture? This has everything to do with it. He spent more time of his life within the village than within clan compounds. He spent more time in a forest training alone instead of his dad teaching him anything bar a katon. He spent more time in the Academy around kids from other clans in the village than members his own age from his own clan. He was taken to a battlefield at age 4 and had to fight at a young age because Fugaku thought this would make him a better tool.

Why would Itachi be close to the Uchiha clan? Especially if he only interacts with his parents, Sasuke, Shisui, and some girl for a few moments when he's not training but no one else unless he'd be obligated to listen to them at a meeting. He spent most of his time in Anbu and before that on a genin team- only Konoha villagers aside from Uchiha included.


All Kishimoto has been doing these years has been adding reasons.

Manga
>Civil war would definitely start
>Next shinobi war would probably start
>Villagers do not want Uchiha to rule, thus there would be rebellion if the clan won
>Uchiha won't succeed most likely as Anbu/Root are enough to stalemate if the clan is caught in time, all going to be eliminated anyway
>Lol theory of Tobirama's "the clan is genetically unstable"
>Hiruzen willing to negotiation, so he's a fair leader.

Novels/Anime

>Fugaku and Mikoto thought the coup was a dumb idea and would entail much bloodshed as people would retaliated until the end for Hiruzen. They were going for it out of fear since they didn't want their people to think of them as traitors and try to assassinate them.
>Itachi repeatedly told the clan that Hiruzen could give them rights at the clan meetings but they blew it off.
>If the clan members found out Fugaku had MS (which they inevitably would if he became Hokage as he'd have to use it to protect Konoha from enemies as strong as Pein or even Orochimaru), they'd force him to use the Kyuubi to destroy everyone as a statement.


You provided no justification, so why do you think it's justified?

Explain how a takeover is justified when the other party is willing to begin peace talks. Don't worry, I'll wait. I always thought it could only be justified if they accept a peace talk and they either fail right away or they come to a conclusion but the other party doesn't hold up the bargain. But they didn't even give it a chance.


He attempted to kill Danzo in the novels but fails as he is surrounded by Anbu (some) ready to jump him the moment he slashes the old man's throat. He considered doing it anyway and killing the Anbu, but then realized other Anbu would attack the Uchiha instead along with other shinobi. Thankfully, he did not kill Danzo as that would not only mean the end of the Uchiha but also their name, thus any chance Sasuke has at living anywhere.


In both the databooks and novel, the Police Force accounts for over 50% of the clan. In what sense is it logical to kill all the men and think that their wives would be okay with it and all would be fine/dandy with no conflict?



It's very realistic given what they were attempting to do. The main reasons Fugaku/Mikoto didn't resist were a) They didn't think the coup had merit in the first place, they were just going with it and b) They knew the clan was gone and if they lived that they would have to fess up. This assisted suicide let them avoid the fate of being publicly executed of imprisoned for life in Konoha.



And then they give up when a teen talks to them, amirite?


Nuclear weapons in real life are worse than the majority of NV techs.

Only character with a reason for everything he did & alternatives were worse. Thus, any logical person would deem it justified. When keeping in mind the scenario and shinobi setting, of course.

Because if we look at it all from a real-life sense alone, well killing is not morally justified in general, thus we cannot justify any character in NV. But, I doubt that's what you meant as you seem to have justified others in a peculiar sense.




You will never find a realistic character in NV with that way of thinking. You're ignoring the setting and circumstances in favor of real life alone.

@bold- That would have failed and he had no means or even a safe place to stay so he could take care of Sasuke. In this sense, what he did was realistic as well. I guess some people, like yourself (as you're making it seem that way with these false scenarios or perhaps you just didn't think it through?) would have let your sibling die and moved on. But some people in real life really can't stand the thought of losing a loved one, however selfish or selfless that may seem.



Did you have to fight in a war because your dad made you when you were 4 as well? And did said father also tell you that your main purpose was just to train and that all life holds for you is nothing but killing?

No? Alright then.



>Supportive family- his family mainly looked at him as a tool to be proud of aside from Sasuke who didn't understand him but just deified him. Thus, he felt isolated even when with them.
>Loving brother- a brother who would eventually come to complain and get annoyed with his existence as their father would problematically not pay enough attention to him.
>Food- true
>Education- true, but he was also primarily self-taught.
>Safety- going into conflict to fight since age 4 isn't safe for the shinobi world. This is abnormal treatment, even from a shinobi parent. Even from an Uchiha. Just because he was lucky to not die doesn't mean he was safe.

The only thing 100% correct here was food.



*4

Fugaku took him there the day he turned 4. What a fantastic father. How could Itachi not support a fine man like that?

The only remotely redeeming factor for Fugaku and Mikoto as parents to Itachi is their deaths but even this is stretching it as the clan was gone so they didn't want to live at that point deep down anyway.



*Is a peaceful small child who doesn't even know what reality is yet*

Fugaku: Here's your birthday gift for turning 4, son.
Itachi...
-Dead bodies everywhere-
Fugaku: And since the war is continuing, you'll have to fight too.
Itachi: But why... did this happen?
Fugaku: Because all shinobi live to do is kill. You're a smart kid, I think you'll understand.

Lmao, wth xD

*Decides that he's not going to kill if he can help it*

Fugaku: I know you're 10 and all, but I need you to join Anbu.
Itachi: I...
Fugaku: It's for the sake of the clan, don't you know your place?!
Itachi: Understood.
-Itachi is now an assassin*

*Makes first & only best friend he can talk to at age 5 but said friend loses hope about the coup despite saying he'll never betray him even though the clan members all despise him... said friend commits suicide when Itachi is 11 and says he is giving up*

Shisui: Don't stop me! Not if you're my friend!
Shisui moves to edge of cliff more after giving his eye to Itachi.
Itachi: Shisui!
Itachi looks down at the rushing waters and awakens MS.

*Becomes friends with comrade on genin team when he's 8*

Tobi shows up.
Comrade lunges at Tobi.
Tobi slices comrade up and kamuis away.
Itachi is left with the corpse and awakens 3-tomoe.

*Shisui sells out the clan by giving info to the Konoha echelons whereas Itachi has not (yet)*
Shisui: Yeah, the clan members pretty much hate you since they think you sold them out.
Itachi: I haven't done anything, though I don't really agree with what's going on now.
Shisui: Don't worry, if they attempt to kill you, you're stronger than them.
Shisui is still revered despite selling out his clan at this point but Itachi is being dragged through the mud despite not having done anything yet- he's being blamed for a "crime" he did not commit.

*Tells clan about possibility of negotiation but is called a traitor instead*
Left with choice of either killing them or running away since they no longer trust him to assist in their coup.

^I would hardly call this normal.

You also say he made the choice to kill his clan, but the other was running away and letting them die. This isn't favorable either way.


So, you think he should just let those kids die by another's hands along with more kids? And that this would qualify as peace loving?



I never knew that any version of Hitler (your take on "2") was willing to negotiate with the Jews. You learn something new every day.



This was said in terms of him caring about people outside of his clan. That is all. I don't consider it unreal for a child to care for more people than those directly around them, actually it's more common when a person is young than when they're older and have further established their bonds with family while really grasping how valuable they are.



There weren't any Hitlers in the situation. Danzo is closer to that designation, but even he doesn't reach it here. He has done worse involving Kabuto and Nagato, their plights were entirely his fault.

Here the Uchiha had an option to talk. They didn't take it. Are you saying that you would find it more productive to let your entire family die along with others? And that this is what people would rather do, something they would NOT struggle/die for but be okay with? What lunacy.



No, and it is very realistic that a clan which hates the village would not listen to someone they only value as a tool. They wanted Itachi to work like a dog, then accused him of being a spy before he became one, then ignored him when he mentioned peaceful options at their meetings. It didn't work because it was a Catch-22 the author went for.

I'm sorry if you think Naruto's messianic crusades are more applicable to real life.



I highly doubt it. In fact, I know he's not given what you've said about this drawing before.



The Leaf Village wasn't aware. It was just 4 elderly people and some Anbu/Root.

However, they did not know:

a) When the Uchiha will attack as they could be lying to Itachi due to the distrust they had of him for years.
b) What abilities all the Uchiha have.
c) What the attack formation will be.

It's possible for the Uchiha to cause damage as spreading out and attacking is not the same as being surprise attacked at night by a man that is intangible and the Anbu captain who knows of all their abilities. Simply saying "two people" and comparing them to Leaf villagers is not an apt way of putting it.



Danzo believed the Anbu could wipe out the Uchiha in a surprise attack, but this was not approved and they were going to attack IF the Uchiha initiated things instead. Then, conflict like a civil war would result when others would decide to assist Anbu.



The Will of Fire doesn't always fix problems and this form of nationalism is the cause of many problems in the series. Though, not to the extent of the Uchiha clan's pride.

I don't see how he's a scumbag in regards to the clan not wanting to talk to him. How can he control that? Do you mean he should have forced them to submit in another way? Perhaps do the alternative to killing them which would be lifetime imprisonment?

He can be weak for not reprimanding Orochimaru or not killing him early on due to favoritism. Or letting Danzo handle scenarios which led to Nagato's/Kabuto's plights.

You KNOW Itachi's not one of my faves? You couldn't be more wrong. If I ever say anything about Itachi, it's meant as an insult to his 'fans', the ones who think he can Totsuka the planet (I know they're joking but it's annoying).

I know Kishi was going for a catch-22 but I think he could've made it more convincing. I know Itachi is a pacifist and the readers are supposed to know that he had no other options. But I still don't think he's realistic. Naruto isn't realistic but I think his character is meant to be ideal.

As for Hiruzen, he is just horribly written. All preachy but he never led, he just got himself stuck in corners and allowed others to run around with their plans. No way he should've let Danzo or Orochimaru do 10% of the shit that they did. Allowing orphans to live on their own is another thing that's idiotic. But Hiruzen is off-topic anyways.

 

[baul 24]

May be the reason why he is unique, as a kind of guy who truly hated war i think his actions are justified as per narutoverse as it was only option he got either die with the clan or go against it for the sake of village and his brother. Leaving along with his brother only taint the honor and pride of the uchihas who are already suspected by the village by his actions not only did he stopped the war also maintained the honor of the clan Top of that given the abilities of uchiha clan it would only be a stale mate where the uchihas and the village kills each other making the konoha in to a grave yard so he took the side which results in less blood shed to kill a hundred to protect thousand so in the end behaved and act like a ninja who fight for the village not for once clan or for once personal agendas. For the record most of the narutoverse is unrealistic not just him. we live in a world where we live and care for our families. Lol we don't die for our neighbours considering our city / country as our family like them who die for their comrades and their village.

 

[unknownvillain1254]

He didn't overcome the hatred as a kid though, he abandoned it after his death, remember what he told Kisame "you don't know who you truly are until you die". He had the Will of Fire but he still gave in to a hatred to a certain extent, but not to the same extent as Uchiha.

Before dying he wanted to do everything on his own like Madara and Indra, and he wanted to use his brother's hatred to make Sasuke strong enough to bring change in the world similar to how Madara used Obito's. After dying he realized the error in his ways and admitted to Sasuke that the path he chose was wrong.



He witnessed war at a young age and didn't like it, he witnessed his clan's pride and arrogance and didn't like it. He was a genius at observation which is why his nurture played a part in his nature. Child geniuses aren't unrealistic there are plenty that have lived throughout our history.

He never saw the value in having the Uchiha name because he understood that pride was more of a human flaw than a benefit which is why he was never able to experience the same feelings of hatred as other Uchiha, he wanted peace and to him a coup d'etat with the clan would only lead to the opposite and him re-experiencing the war he witnessed as a child.





The difference between him and others is that his hatred only fuelled his desire to avoid war and maintain peace, in contrast the Uchiha were known to use hatred to gain power for revenge at the cost of peace.

Their history of pride and war is what led him to the slaughter of his clan, he was more rational and knew that diplomatic talks wouldn't stop some from conspiring against Konoha due to them being unable to overcome feelings of hatred, and killing one leader or a couple of village traitors would only lead more Uchiha to follow Madara's ideology.

He left Sasuke as the sole survivor because as the author mentions he was "pure", he didn't know anything about the history of the clan or the village due to his young age, and Itachi also believed Sasuke would change the Uchiha clan due to him having the stronger eye power.

That only part I disagree with

 

[Uchiha420]

Exactly! He understood these traumas of other people despite living in a peacefull home! To save the people of the village from all that he sacrificed his loving peaceful life! That makes him a very unique character! You answered your own question!

At age 7....

I'm not looking for realism in a Shonen manga to begin with so :sdo:

Irrelevant; good for u tho.

 

[Uchiha420]

I was summoned?! Okay, whatever happens in this thread is now your fault.



Okay, let's have a fun discussion.


Madara rambled on about being so for his clan but when things got tough, he left them. He could have just killed Tobirama instead as he was strong enough to & take the Hokage seat or if he didn't do the latter, at least his clan would be safer under anyone else really. He didn't. He instead opted to attack the village repeatedly which led more people to generalize about the Uchiha. Counterproductive.

Madara also rambled on about bringing peace but enjoyed "crushing skulls". Contradictory.

Orochimaru dropped his goal of destroying the village (and we never know why he wanted to) and is now considered a relatively "okay" guy despite all of his crimes (human experimentation, baby killing, etc).



Obito and Gaara both changed rather easily due to Naruto's speeches. No real therapy or medication required.



I haven't met anyone on the level of Naruto as far as attention seeking goes. What person would hunt down someone they only knew for 7 months and scream at wanting to acknowledge them.



Kakashi supported the same ninja system which led to his father's suicide when his father was apparently everything to him as a child. He is by far one of the most unrealistic characters in this manga.



A full manga volume, numerous manga chapters afterwards the reveal over the course of 6 years, two novels, and an anime adaptation is hardly rushed.

I have never heard of any 13 yr old double agent who had to kill his/her family in real life. No, there is no "worse" childhood. Losing one's parent is already painful but actually having to kill them and live with that sin? On another level that you and no one else on this forum can fathom.

No, there were not other ways to protect Sasuke or keep him sane with a purpose.

You mention running away like a coward would be better? You say he should have taken Sasuke with him? Can Sasuke enter Akatsuki... no. Can Itachi find any other place... no, Tobi's offer is what kept him from being homeless. if Itachi took Sasuke with him, he'd need a way to acquire funds. How would he do that? He can't go to any village, none will trust him with his new status. This is not ideal at all.

He didn't want the Uchiha to lose- he wanted them to negotiate which they rejected the very notion of. As a result, they died so that further people would not. He was not confident that they would win.

We're all entitled to our own opinions (hence why you made this thread and I can discuss mine with you too as can anyone else), but bad writing? It was very well-received both by the fandom in general and critics. Unlike other reveals such as Tobi's unmasking or the Sage fiasco.



*Age 7

Nature and nurture? This has everything to do with it. He spent more time of his life within the village than within clan compounds. He spent more time in a forest training alone instead of his dad teaching him anything bar a katon. He spent more time in the Academy around kids from other clans in the village than members his own age from his own clan. He was taken to a battlefield at age 4 and had to fight at a young age because Fugaku thought this would make him a better tool.

Why would Itachi be close to the Uchiha clan? Especially if he only interacts with his parents, Sasuke, Shisui, and some girl for a few moments when he's not training but no one else unless he'd be obligated to listen to them at a meeting. He spent most of his time in Anbu and before that on a genin team- only Konoha villagers aside from Uchiha included.


All Kishimoto has been doing these years has been adding reasons.

Manga
>Civil war would definitely start
>Next shinobi war would probably start
>Villagers do not want Uchiha to rule, thus there would be rebellion if the clan won
>Uchiha won't succeed most likely as Anbu/Root are enough to stalemate if the clan is caught in time, all going to be eliminated anyway
>Lol theory of Tobirama's "the clan is genetically unstable"
>Hiruzen willing to negotiation, so he's a fair leader.

Novels/Anime

>Fugaku and Mikoto thought the coup was a dumb idea and would entail much bloodshed as people would retaliated until the end for Hiruzen. They were going for it out of fear since they didn't want their people to think of them as traitors and try to assassinate them.
>Itachi repeatedly told the clan that Hiruzen could give them rights at the clan meetings but they blew it off.
>If the clan members found out Fugaku had MS (which they inevitably would if he became Hokage as he'd have to use it to protect Konoha from enemies as strong as Pein or even Orochimaru), they'd force him to use the Kyuubi to destroy everyone as a statement.


You provided no justification, so why do you think it's justified?

Explain how a takeover is justified when the other party is willing to begin peace talks. Don't worry, I'll wait. I always thought it could only be justified if they accept a peace talk and they either fail right away or they come to a conclusion but the other party doesn't hold up the bargain. But they didn't even give it a chance.


He attempted to kill Danzo in the novels but fails as he is surrounded by Anbu (some) ready to jump him the moment he slashes the old man's throat. He considered doing it anyway and killing the Anbu, but then realized other Anbu would attack the Uchiha instead along with other shinobi. Thankfully, he did not kill Danzo as that would not only mean the end of the Uchiha but also their name, thus any chance Sasuke has at living anywhere.


In both the databooks and novel, the Police Force accounts for over 50% of the clan. In what sense is it logical to kill all the men and think that their wives would be okay with it and all would be fine/dandy with no conflict?



It's very realistic given what they were attempting to do. The main reasons Fugaku/Mikoto didn't resist were a) They didn't think the coup had merit in the first place, they were just going with it and b) They knew the clan was gone and if they lived that they would have to fess up. This assisted suicide let them avoid the fate of being publicly executed of imprisoned for life in Konoha.



And then they give up when a teen talks to them, amirite?


Nuclear weapons in real life are worse than the majority of NV techs.

Only character with a reason for everything he did & alternatives were worse. Thus, any logical person would deem it justified. When keeping in mind the scenario and shinobi setting, of course.

Because if we look at it all from a real-life sense alone, well killing is not morally justified in general, thus we cannot justify any character in NV. But, I doubt that's what you meant as you seem to have justified others in a peculiar sense.




You will never find a realistic character in NV with that way of thinking. You're ignoring the setting and circumstances in favor of real life alone.

@bold- That would have failed and he had no means or even a safe place to stay so he could take care of Sasuke. In this sense, what he did was realistic as well. I guess some people, like yourself (as you're making it seem that way with these false scenarios or perhaps you just didn't think it through?) would have let your sibling die and moved on. But some people in real life really can't stand the thought of losing a loved one, however selfish or selfless that may seem.



Did you have to fight in a war because your dad made you when you were 4 as well? And did said father also tell you that your main purpose was just to train and that all life holds for you is nothing but killing?

No? Alright then.



>Supportive family- his family mainly looked at him as a tool to be proud of aside from Sasuke who didn't understand him but just deified him. Thus, he felt isolated even when with them.
>Loving brother- a brother who would eventually come to complain and get annoyed with his existence as their father would problematically not pay enough attention to him.
>Food- true
>Education- true, but he was also primarily self-taught.
>Safety- going into conflict to fight since age 4 isn't safe for the shinobi world. This is abnormal treatment, even from a shinobi parent. Even from an Uchiha. Just because he was lucky to not die doesn't mean he was safe.

The only thing 100% correct here was food.



*4

Fugaku took him there the day he turned 4. What a fantastic father. How could Itachi not support a fine man like that?

The only remotely redeeming factor for Fugaku and Mikoto as parents to Itachi is their deaths but even this is stretching it as the clan was gone so they didn't want to live at that point deep down anyway.



*Is a peaceful small child who doesn't even know what reality is yet*

Fugaku: Here's your birthday gift for turning 4, son.
Itachi...
-Dead bodies everywhere-
Fugaku: And since the war is continuing, you'll have to fight too.
Itachi: But why... did this happen?
Fugaku: Because all shinobi live to do is kill. You're a smart kid, I think you'll understand.

Lmao, wth xD

*Decides that he's not going to kill if he can help it*

Fugaku: I know you're 10 and all, but I need you to join Anbu.
Itachi: I...
Fugaku: It's for the sake of the clan, don't you know your place?!
Itachi: Understood.
-Itachi is now an assassin*

*Makes first & only best friend he can talk to at age 5 but said friend loses hope about the coup despite saying he'll never betray him even though the clan members all despise him... said friend commits suicide when Itachi is 11 and says he is giving up*

Shisui: Don't stop me! Not if you're my friend!
Shisui moves to edge of cliff more after giving his eye to Itachi.
Itachi: Shisui!
Itachi looks down at the rushing waters and awakens MS.

*Becomes friends with comrade on genin team when he's 8*

Tobi shows up.
Comrade lunges at Tobi.
Tobi slices comrade up and kamuis away.
Itachi is left with the corpse and awakens 3-tomoe.

*Shisui sells out the clan by giving info to the Konoha echelons whereas Itachi has not (yet)*
Shisui: Yeah, the clan members pretty much hate you since they think you sold them out.
Itachi: I haven't done anything, though I don't really agree with what's going on now.
Shisui: Don't worry, if they attempt to kill you, you're stronger than them.
Shisui is still revered despite selling out his clan at this point but Itachi is being dragged through the mud despite not having done anything yet- he's being blamed for a "crime" he did not commit.

*Tells clan about possibility of negotiation but is called a traitor instead*
Left with choice of either killing them or running away since they no longer trust him to assist in their coup.

^I would hardly call this normal.

You also say he made the choice to kill his clan, but the other was running away and letting them die. This isn't favorable either way.


So, you think he should just let those kids die by another's hands along with more kids? And that this would qualify as peace loving?



I never knew that any version of Hitler (your take on "2") was willing to negotiate with the Jews. You learn something new every day.



This was said in terms of him caring about people outside of his clan. That is all. I don't consider it unreal for a child to care for more people than those directly around them, actually it's more common when a person is young than when they're older and have further established their bonds with family while really grasping how valuable they are.



There weren't any Hitlers in the situation. Danzo is closer to that designation, but even he doesn't reach it here. He has done worse involving Kabuto and Nagato, their plights were entirely his fault.

Here the Uchiha had an option to talk. They didn't take it. Are you saying that you would find it more productive to let your entire family die along with others? And that this is what people would rather do, something they would NOT struggle/die for but be okay with? What lunacy.



No, and it is very realistic that a clan which hates the village would not listen to someone they only value as a tool. They wanted Itachi to work like a dog, then accused him of being a spy before he became one, then ignored him when he mentioned peaceful options at their meetings. It didn't work because it was a Catch-22 the author went for.

I'm sorry if you think Naruto's messianic crusades are more applicable to real life.



I highly doubt it. In fact, I know he's not given what you've said about this drawing before.



The Leaf Village wasn't aware. It was just 4 elderly people and some Anbu/Root.

However, they did not know:

a) When the Uchiha will attack as they could be lying to Itachi due to the distrust they had of him for years.
b) What abilities all the Uchiha have.
c) What the attack formation will be.

It's possible for the Uchiha to cause damage as spreading out and attacking is not the same as being surprise attacked at night by a man that is intangible and the Anbu captain who knows of all their abilities. Simply saying "two people" and comparing them to Leaf villagers is not an apt way of putting it.



Danzo believed the Anbu could wipe out the Uchiha in a surprise attack, but this was not approved and they were going to attack IF the Uchiha initiated things instead. Then, conflict like a civil war would result when others would decide to assist Anbu.



The Will of Fire doesn't always fix problems and this form of nationalism is the cause of many problems in the series. Though, not to the extent of the Uchiha clan's pride.

I don't see how he's a scumbag in regards to the clan not wanting to talk to him. How can he control that? Do you mean he should have forced them to submit in another way? Perhaps do the alternative to killing them which would be lifetime imprisonment?

He can be weak for not reprimanding Orochimaru or not killing him early on due to favoritism. Or letting Danzo handle scenarios which led to Nagato's/Kabuto's plights.

I'll reply more in details later but a few things (I can't answer every point by quoting separately since I always post on a phone, esp since the post is huge. but u look over ur points that I'm addressing.

1. I didn't say he should take Sasuke and leave the village, rather, take him somewhere safe until the conflict is over, and since he has been working for Konoha (as Danzo is gonna pull what he did to shisyi), he could offer a deal with The Third in exchange for his dad's info, allow him and Sasuke to be protected. Either that or he can leave re village after giving the info and making sure Sasuke is protected (and before u say that it wouldn't be guranteed that Danzo would be ok with it, how would Itschi know that danzo wouldn't kill Sasuke AFTER the massacre anyway?). Either way, he can explain to Sasuke What was going on and keep in contact as he matures so he can help him understand what had to happen, and at least Sasuke would know he has someone left. After all, itachi did acknowledge it was a mistake to keep Sasuke in the dark when he was reanminated.

2. He should have accounted for Sasuke finding out through Tobi.

3. About the dad thing, though it's a diff scenario, you don't know my father to just assume Fugaku was THE WORST parent ever (I'm not justifying what he did either, but since you used "you" I'll debate that) at least Fugaku loved, supported(as in being around) and didn't abuse his child like many fathers out there let's just say.

4. A point I was trying to make is, why did Itachi back up the village till his last dying breath, when he saw all the corruption there was. First of all the whole using of children in the anbu, if he hated war so much wouldn't he think less of the village for doing that?
What about what Danzo did to Shisui who tried to KA the uchiha into peace, doesn't that seem that they were pushing for wiping out the Uchiha, which brings me to:

5. The reason I could justify the coup is because the lead has outlawed and mistrusted the Uchiha for years, the blame for the kyuubi attack, putting them in the outskirts, and the elders planting a spy (tho that goes both ways). And like I said, Danzo wanted them to rebel so he could end their existence, which is why he pushed for takin out Shisui.

6. He trusted the elders who didn't give a crap about him so much that he was simply ok to make himslef and his brother suffer. He accepted being labeled rogue after all he did JUST TO PROTECT THE VILLAGE REPUTATION, doesn't that tell him something? That ppl would look at the hokage differently for forcing an innocent adolescent to do his dirty work.

7. Continuing off my last point, if he couldn't make s deal fo protect himself and his brother if he would stay out of it (also he knew about The masked man, he could have helped the leaf village even further in the future). So if that didn't work out, if not any rational person, at least I would rather fight for if not the people I grew up with, but for the people that would actually treat me like a human being and have at least try to have a shot at a normal life after the coup.

 

[Chie]

I'll reply more in details later but a few things (I can't answer every point by quoting separately since I always post on a phone, esp since the post is huge. but u look over ur points that I'm addressing.

Okay.

1. I didn't say he should take Sasuke and leave the village, rather, take him somewhere safe until the conflict is over, and since he has been working for Konoha (as Danzo is gonna pull what he did to shisyi), he could offer a deal with The Third in exchange for his dad's info, allow him and Sasuke to be protected. Either that or he can leave re village after giving the info and making sure Sasuke is protected (and before u say that it wouldn't be guranteed that Danzo would be ok with it, how would Itschi know that danzo wouldn't kill Sasuke AFTER the massacre anyway?). Either way, he can explain to Sasuke What was going on and keep in contact as he matures so he can help him understand what had to happen, and at least Sasuke would know he has someone left. After all, itachi did acknowledge it was a mistake to keep Sasuke in the dark when he was reanminated.

Problem is, Itachi didn't want the conflict to occur so this is not a valid option. He had more than Sasuke he wanted to keep safe back then.

2. He should have accounted for Sasuke finding out through Tobi.

He did. That was the point of the lies during the fight along with the amaterasu activation. But as he's human (oh snap, realism) he failed.

3. About the dad thing, though it's a diff scenario, you don't know my father to just assume Fugaku was THE WORST parent ever (I'm not justifying what he did either, but since you used "you" I'll debate that) at least Fugaku loved, supported(as in being around) and didn't abuse his child like many fathers out there let's just say.

Well, if you think a father saying that it's good your friend died and that you should work like a dog is loving, then who am I to judge? Being proud of ability and determination is vastly different than "love".

4. A point I was trying to make is, why did Itachi back up the village till his last dying breath, when he saw all the corruption there was. First of all the whole using of children in the anbu, if he hated war so much wouldn't he think less of the village for doing that?
What about what Danzo did to Shisui who tried to KA the uchiha into peace, doesn't that seem that they were pushing for wiping out the Uchiha, which brings me to:

He probably didn't think much of them using children in Anbu as he was the only child in Anbu at the time & the only reason he was in the organization in the first place was because his dad told him he had to be. That goes to the clan, not village.

Danzo did so as he didn't trust Shisui, we know the only Uchiha trusted deeply by the higher-ups was Itachi. A village is not the same as one man.

5. The reason I could justify the coup is because the lead has outlawed and mistrusted the Uchiha for years, the blame for the kyuubi attack, putting them in the outskirts, and the elders planting a spy (tho that goes both ways). And like I said, Danzo wanted them to rebel so he could end their existence, which is why he pushed for takin out Shisui.

Well, I can't justify it as they had peaceful alternatives but disregarded them out of pride.

6. He trusted the elders who didn't give a crap about him so much that he was simply ok to make himslef and his brother suffer. He accepted being labeled rogue after all he did JUST TO PROTECT THE VILLAGE REPUTATION, doesn't that tell him something? That ppl would look at the hokage differently for forcing an innocent adolescent to do his dirty work.

Wrong, it was to protect the Uchiha reputation. No one would side with the Uchiha if their takeover succeeded, they'd be traitors and the villagers themselves would revolt.

People wouldn't think differently of Hiruzen as all ninjas are required to follow orders, regardless of age. Maybe they'd look down upon his parents who opted for him to be in Anbu & thus that situation in the first place.

7. Continuing off my last point, if he couldn't make s deal fo protect himself and his brother if he would stay out of it (also he knew about The masked man, he could have helped the leaf village even further in the future). So if that didn't work out, if not any rational person, at least I would rather fight for if not the people I grew up with, but for the people that would actually treat me like a human being and have at least try to have a shot at a normal life after the coup.

His comrades in Konoha treated him better than the Police Force members that thought of him as a traitor and wanted him dead.

Itachi would only be able to have a normal life if he told the truth after the massacre, the villagers would appreciate him undertaking such a painful mission, and he'd be made Hokage while having no truths hidden. That's all.

 

[shelke]

^ He WAS a traitor to his clan. They were right.

 

[Dannie]

Jesus Christ Chie...

 

[Chie]

^ He WAS a traitor to his clan. They were right.

Yes, he was. Later on.

However, they already suspected him before he had actually become one and Shisui had been leaking intel first.

Jesus Christ Chie...

Okay, I'll stop replying to this thread. This is my last post. /sike.

 

[Aznkidd]

Chie: he'd be made Hokage while having no truths hidden

 

[Chie]

Chie: he'd be made Hokage while having no truths hidden

If he didn't care about keeping a facade for Sasuke and let Danzo kill him... then yes, that would have been a possibility with how nationalistic people in Konoha are.

 

[Aznkidd]

If he didn't care about keeping a facade for Sasuke and let Danzo kill him... then yes, that would have been a possibility with how nationalistic people in Konoha are.

He was not wise to come to that decision because he could have let everybody on both side knows what is going on and try his best to stand between and be reasonable or alert both side. If he did that then he is truly Hokage.
Or if he had evacuated elders and children to a safety place and only deal with the main problem then he is truly Hokage.

He is just being hypocrite for saving his brother - his most important person while slaughter anyone he does not care about - those who are hopeless like children and elders. That is not a decision of a truly leader when it comes down to difficult choice.

 

[shelke]

Yes, he was. Later on.

However, they already suspected him before he had actually become one and Shisui had been leaking intel first.
Okay, I'll stop replying to this thread. This is my last post. /sike.

He was a double agent since the time he headed the Anbu squad.

 

[Chie]

He was not wise to come to that decision because he could have let everybody on both side knows what is going on and try his best to stand between and be reasonable or alert both side. If he did that then he is truly Hokage.
Or if he had evacuated elders and children to a safety place and only deal with the main problem then he is truly Hokage.

He is just being hypocrite for saving his brother - his most important person while slaughter anyone he does not care about - those who are hopeless like children and elders. That is not a decision of a truly leader when it comes down to difficult choice.

I completely disagree as if he told the villagers that the Uchiha wanted to take over, then that would not have ended well. And he had no place to "evacuate" people- only reason he wasn't homeless is due to the spot Obito offered him in Akatsuki.

He could only save Sasuke, so I don't find it hypocritical. That was the only decision he could make given the rest were set to be eliminated regardless. It looks like you have a problem with Hiruzen's/Danzo's/Fugaku's leadership instead.

He was a double agent since the time he headed the Anbu squad.

That wasn't until he was 13 and he was already suspected before then.

 

[shelke]

That wasn't until he was 13 and he was already suspected before then.

He was in the Anbu before as well. He simply became a captain when he was 13.

 

[Chie]

He was in the Anbu before as well. He simply became a captain when he was 13.

He was in Anbu since he was 10 and a half and didn't leak intel until later years. He was just in the organization at that point.

They suspected him a few years too early.

 

[shelke]

He was in Anbu since he was 10 and a half and didn't leak intel until later years. He was just in the organization at that point.

They suspected him a few years too early.

When the distant brother started, he was 12 or 13. He was leaking intel before it from the looks of it.