[Tier] Speed Tier List

[Draegod]

Madara and Mu weren't trying to blitz. If Ay and Tsunade were simply approaching them, you'd have a point but they got ported and immediately launched their attack without expecting Madara and Mu to be right in front of them. Anyway I've seen you use Sasuke attacking alongside Naruto to demonstrate speed equality so isn't this a contradiction?

lol Sounds like one to me.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Yeah, even if the cloak makes his precognitive abilities better, that doesn't account for the boost his eyes got during the fight with Obito. If he was able to perceive Juubito because of the cloak then he would've been doing so from the start. So while he might not be able to track Obito w/o the cloak, the point stands and I pretty much agree with your scaling listed above. That's actually what I've been saying is true.

Though what is the difference between BM and KCM in reaction speed? Because they are technically the same state until Kurama comes out.

And yes, let's pick up that discussion. Not like there's anything going on here anyway. :lol And I've gotten tired of arguing with the illiterate above me.

He's a decent deal better in physical ability. His feats were more impressive against Obito and Madara imo. The cloak does give him an extra boost over KCM without a doubt, it took him from needed a KB to use a "super Mini" BD to just his KB making Rasengan sized BD with just one hand. This is honestly a great feats in all departments

- Strength is far greater, since KCM could barely hold it up with both arms and chakra arms (compared to one)
- Far greater chakra control (doesn't need extra limbs)
- Able to leap great distances despite the weight

So just from watching him, Im inclined to believe that the BM cloak is just another general boost that he gets from connecting with Kurama. As for how much faster he gets, I can't quantify it any better than how much better Sasuke's tracking gets post post cloak. If we put it in numbers though, I feel like it would look like this (this is just me guestimating how much faster they would need to get to go from getting blitzed to tracking him)

Reactions:

BSM Naruto = Cloaked EMS Sasuke: 100
BM Naruto = Post Cloak Sasuke: 70
KCM Naruto = Pre Cloak Sasuke: 50

I believe they would have needed to be at least 2x faster (reaction wise) to have been able to go from getting blitzed to tracking and fighting him fine a high speeds.

---

I didn't have time to make a rebuttal to this yet, but im gonna leave this here. I'll probably have to give it a once over so I can remember everything we were discussing. Let me know if theres anything you've sinced changed your mind on, and i'll do the same when I reply.

Spoiler

Lmfao, I'll add B, as for Minato. Early EMS Sasuke can react just as fast as KCM Naruto, who isn't too far from Minato's reaction speed considering their feats against Ay, and Kabuto>Sasuke in reaction speed due to Sage Mode. Though now that I think about it, Ay was between 5-10, probably around 7 or 8, meters away from Minato when he attacked while Ay was farther away than that when he attacked Naruto, he also said Naruto is coming. So Minato has the edge when it comes to reaction speed, combine that with the fact that Naruto reacted to Ay when Ay's fist was farther away from his face than it was for Minato and Minato should still have the edge, but not by too much. Kabuto's feats against Sasuke and Itachi put him comfortably above Sasuke and anyone in his league.

No, Base Minato's reaction time isn't close to KCM Naruto, not even close.

The Hokages were brought back at

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. Whatever translation you read Tobirama basically says the same thing, that being the Hokages Edo Tensei forms had basically the same power as their alive versions, with a possible negligible difference. Madara statement later on doesn't contradict this or imply that the difference was large. Even if someone were to argue that Madara was implying a significant difference, then Tobirama's statement takes priority. As he's the creator of Edo Tensei and knows his own power better than anyone else.

So Base Minato >= Base Edo Minato in reaction time. Then as we head into the Juubito fight, we see EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto showing similar reaction times to KCM Minato.

Sasuke reacts to Juubito

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even faster than Minato does, and the former was using Shunshin while the latter used FTG. Naruto and Sasuke also mentally react to Juubito

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at the exact same time, so we know their reactions are on par. Minato reacts to Juubito just after this with FTG, indicated by the bottom panel. Naruto also reacts to this nearly as fast as Minato,

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. We know that Naruto reacts nearly as fast as Minato due to the fact that the only time lapse between Minato's FTG attempt and Naruto's Chakra arms was the time it took for Obito's "TSB" to start

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.

So overall, the difference in reactions between KCM Naruto and Base Minato is the entirety of the boost that KCM gives - the negligible difference between Edo Minato and Alive Minato. The Raikage fight means little as Naruto easily reacted to the Raikage while Minato barely did (Naruto absolutely shit on Ay's speed here, I didn't wanna go on to long about how but I can if need be). Even if you want to keep arguing that, Naruto's reaction against Juubito was even more impressive than Minato's reactions against Ay, since Naruto reacted with something that actually travels while Minato reacted with teleportation, and we all know Juubito >>> Ay in speed.

---

Im gonna go ahead and second KG's listing though, with the only difference is that SM Naruto is switched to above base Minato.

Wrong. A direct comparison between them both evading Ay's punch shows that they are on par if not Minato being superior.

-Ay charges at both.
-They both physically react with Ay almost hitting them.
-Ay is further away from Naruto by a bit, which would mean he reacts faster, but Ay was also further away from Naruto from the start when compared to how far from Ay Minato was.




No.



Wrong.

-Juubito attacks.
-Minato reacts in the next panel.

No point in mentioning Hiraishin when he had no way to use Hiraishin due to Obito's marking not being where Minato left it, something he didn't know. Not to mention he still reacted long before Sasuke blocked so you don't have a point there regardless. Sasuke didn't react just as fast or nearly as fast. None of these comparisons even hold since Minato isn't the one being attacked by Obito. The chakra arm feat doesn't matter because there is nothing for you to compare that to in order to come to the conclusion that KCM Naruto reacts just as fast as KCM Minato. The bold would make sense if Minato and Naruto had initiated their action at around the same time, but there is nothing showing or implying that they did.

-Juubito grabs them.
-Minato sees them get caught and then responds to Hiraishin.
-Hiraishin doesn't work, so Minato is left unable to act.
-Then Naruto solves the problem by extending his chakra arm.




1. No, the Raikage fight means everything. Minato reacted to Ay from a closer distance than Naruto did, and no he obviously didn't "barely" react when he was able to flick a Kunai above his head before teleporting away, or rather "barely reacting" isn't his limit. Had he barely reacted then he wouldn't have made any physical movement. Meanwhile we have Naruto who:

-Had a warning from Ay.
-And was further away from Ay than Minato was.

2. Naruto's reaction against Juubito is nonexistent. The only thing of Juubito's Naruto has ever reacted to is his Gudo Dama, which Hiruzen can react to so that's not a feat that'd put him above Minato. Juubito>>>Ay in speed, but Ay>>>>Juubito's Gudo Dama in speed.

And lol what? If the difference between Base Minato and KCM Naruto's reaction speed was the KCM boost itself, then Base Minato and Base Naruto would be on par in reaction speed and I don't think I need to explain how ridiculous that is. Nor would Base Minato have reacted to Ay from the distance he did.



What feat does SM Naruto have that puts him on par with Base Minato let alone above?

If someone charges you, and the only physical reaction you can make is to flick your hand, then you barely reacted. I don't see how people don't see that, I bet if it happen to your IRL then you wouldn't be saying you easily reacted or anything of the sort.

Raikage getting close to Naruto also means little, he was trying to draw

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. For this point to hold, it would also have to imply that it was the fastest that Naruto could react, which its not. As someones reactions are better than the speed that they can move, this has been constant throughout the manga and there hasn't been a single case otherwise.

Since Naruto's Shunshin >>>> Ay's (and his reactions are faster than his Shunshin), can react to Juubito, and was trying to get Ay away from Tsunade, this whole point with Ay is moot. Especially when Ay's Shunshin is nearly enough to blitz Minato.

The only thing you got is the distance Ay was from Minato, and that's so insignificant when you look at all aspects of how they reacted and when you look at the rest of Naruto's feats.



Your points here only strengthen my argument.

If Minato had actually reacted with Hiriashin before Sasuke blocked, then he would have known that the marking wasn't there. He found out the second time when Obito grabbed them and he tried to teleport. So Sasuke reacted with Shunshin before Minato could even attempt FTG. The bold is also ignoring a scan I posted earlier, since the only thing that takes place between Minato's FTG attempt and Naruto extending his chakra arms was Obito beginning to form his Gudodama, and only a small amount had started to form before Naruto's arms grabbed Minato.

I shouldn't have to explain how fast molding Gudodama are

-

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- Fast enough to form in reaction to FTG attempts [

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] (from someone you consider to have faster reactions/striking speed than even KCM Minato)

I can get the Madara ones too, which are even better considering their shouldn't be much if any speed difference between the twos TSB

You point on Minato not being the one being attack makes it even worse since he should be reacting even faster considering he was watching them get attacked. Being on the outside of a battle allows people like 6G Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi interfere with people like JJ Madara and 8G Gai







Your reaching so bad right now.

Naruto and Sasuke both mentally

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, signified by the "!!" in the panel before their grabbed, then Naruto physically reacts to him with the Chakra arms.

Hiruzen didn't react in the way your trying to imply. [

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][

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].

- Charged at him with a much slower speed than he did Hashirama/Tobirama or Naruto/Sasuke.
- Formed THREE different Gudodama weapons in succession
- Stuck at him with striking speed first, which is slower than just forming a weapon, then grabbed him
- On top of all this Obito was a farther distance away (since that seems so important to you in Minato v Raikage)

Do I need to keep on with this point? I can get the scans of Gudodama being faster than Kamui and Madara being able to form one fast enough to block Naruto before even got Shinju or his other Rinnegan.





It may sound ridiculous when you look at his early feats, but Base Naruto hasn't been showcased since before the Pain Arc. The only feat afterwards is him scaling the God Tree before Kakashi can speak a couple sentences, which is a damn good feat.

So don't bring If and Then logic into this when we have no idea how fast Base Naruto is. The feats stack up when we compare KCM forms, where people go from their isn't my problem nor is Base Naruto what we're discussing. Plus I can use this logic to poke all kinds of holes in your argument.

---

Wtf is up with some of the lists people are putting up Lol

Only thing I agree with out of this part of your post, so I'll drop the Ay comparison point. Doesn't 100% prove your point though, especially not the Base naruto=Base Minato stuff/How large Minato's power up is business.

And the bold is clearly an exaggeration. Naruto is easily faster, but not by as much as you clearly think.




Whether he reacted and managed to initiate Hiraishin before Sasuke blocked is irrelevant. Him making that handseal is a reaction. So unless you are going to tell me that Minato's handseal was made before Sasuke blocked the attack, which it wasn't.

-Mental reaction comes first.
-Then physical reaction for the handseal.
-Then and only then does Sasuke react with Shunshin.




In reaction to Hiraishin attempts? No. Obito forming his Gudo Dama as a shield is a reaction to the ball exploding.

-Tobirama warps to it.
-Tobirama warps it to him.
-Tobirama then takes him and warps somewhere else.
-Then the ball explodes.

In between their arrival to the final destination and the ball exploding is when Obito reacted with the Gudo Dama. So Tobirama's own speed is completely irrelevant here. But considering the only time gap in between the specified events isn't the speed the Gudo Dama forms at, you barely have a point.








What are you talking about? Naruto reacted mentally with his surprise and then he sent his chakra arms out after he was grabbed. His chakra arms were not a reaction to Obito's Shunshin so don't argue that they were. Mentioning his mental reaction is irrelevant when I was addressing this:



Which is indeed 100% incorrect. Not sure why you are trying to argue that Naruto firing his chakra arms after being blitzed is a reaction, but it makes no sense. The only thing you are showing me is that Naruto reacted to the Gudo Dama with something that travels.

As for Hiruzen, uh, no.

-The first two points are irrelevant as Hiruzen made no attempt to dodge anything as there was no attack coming for him.
-And no he didn't stick him with striking speed.

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That's obviously the Gudo Dama extending. The distance is the only thing you have but even then that's irrelevant. If Hiruzen can react to that thing from a distance of of less than 30ish meters even though he's nowhere close to being any kind of speedster, then someone miles ahead of him in any kind of speed reacting to it from point blank isn't a feat worth mentioning in this discussion.



None of those are feats of the Gudo Dama's extension speed nor are they mindless Obito's feats so you can bring them if you want, it won't matter. There is a gap in between Obito grabbing the duo/Minato about to use Hiraishin and Obito activating the Gudo Dama, so bringing how fast the Gudo Dama can move isn't going to prove your point as that time gap isn't just how fast the Gudo Dama can move.

-Obito grabs them.

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-Minato realizes that Obito's marking is gone.
-Obito stares at the duo.

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Only then does he activate the Gudo Dama.

And if you want to talk Gudo Dama, why don't we go look at Minato being able to teleport away before the Gudo Dama can put holes in his body. And yes it's a reaction feat for him. He's not a bystander, he's the one intercepting and he acted before the Gudo Dama themselves could "act" That's a feat superior to Naruto reacting to the Gudo Dama's extension (slower than Perfect JJ Obito and JJ Madara's Gudo Dama whether it be formation or traveling by feats) from point blank considering the traveling of the balls is far faster than the extension of the Gudo Dama as:

-Hiruzen can partially evade one.
-From not even double the distance the same Gudo Dama traveling outspeeds Kamui (much faster than Hiruzen so don't try and capitalize on the distance) and reaches Kakashi's face before they can initiate and completely resolve Double Kamui hence the presence of the portal.

And let's continue to talk Gudo Dama.

Spoiler

-Naruto was able to react to the Gudo Dama's extension from point blank range by sending his chakra arm to Minato before the Gudo Dama could extend and skewer his head (extension has already started as you have shown us)
-Meaning Naruto's Chakra Arm>>>Gudo Dama's extension in speed.
-You claim that in this particular scenario they possess the speed above that of Kamui.
-Meaning Naruto's chakra arm>>>Gudo Dama>Kamui.
-Yet Obito (on two occasions) has evaded KCM Naruto's chakra arms. Once from around 10m away during their fight on the rocks and another

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before Kakashi and Gai showed up.
-Yet against Madara's Gudo Dama Obito (but with Hagoromo's power this time around and was also not point blank distance from Madara) was unable to warp himself to the other dimension and he was only barely able to block the Gudo Dama, so evasion is out of the question.

-Madara is able to form a Gudo Dama before Naruto can reach him, thus the Gudo Dama forms faster than Base RSM Naruto can Shunshin.
-Your argument pretty much states "KCM chakra arm travels much faster than the extension of the Gudo Dama"
-So are you saying that Naruto can extend his chakra arm over 5m faster than Base RSM Naruto can Shunshin? Like I said, your feats don't add up.

And we also have Obito being able to block BSM and EMS Sasuke's attack (the same attack he himself couldn't dodge) with the Gudo Dama yet despite those same Gudo Dama (according to your argument, speed wise) were unable to skewer KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke from point blank distance. In fact, after the Gudo Dama had started to extend.

-The same chakra arm that Obito easily evaded was able to cross over 5 meters and grab Minato.
-Then Minato was able to warp them with Hiraishin.
-And only then did the Gudo Dama extend past Naruto and Sasuke's original positions.

It should be clear that your transition of these feats doesn't even come close to adding up. So unless you are using Mindless Obito's feats they don't apply, as people with more power (Obito post control and Madara) have shown better and more fluid control over the Gudo Dama. The extension speed of Mindless Obito's Gudo Dama has shown to be nothing special.

Spoiler

Uh, no.

-SM Naruto>>Base Naruto in reaction speed. And he has sensing to boot.
-SM Naruto vs. Alive Madara, Alive Madara manages to speed past him and Sai and the only reaction Naruto can manage is a block (please don't say "he only blocked because that's all he needed when a simple block isn't the optimal reaction against a charging enemy you are trying to kill/seal)
-Alive Madara is not as fast as Ay. Not even close. Not when Edo Madara could only manage a block against Ay.

If SM Naruto could only manage a block against Madara then he wouldn't be physically reacting to Madara at all in Base. So if I decided to agree "Base Naruto=Base Minato" in reaction speed, then I'd be agreeing that Minato can't react to someone faster than Ay from a distance similar to what he already reacted to Ay in the Manga. :lol

Then we have 3-Tomoe Sasuke, who has reactions superior to Base Naruto. He can't even perceive V2 Ay yet Base Minato can physically and mentally react to him. Yet somehow Base Naruto=Base Minato? And don't say that Base Naruto=3-T Sasuke in reaction speed either.

-VoTE 2 downscaling shows that Base Naruto and Dojutsu-less Sasuke tie in hand to hand and are equal in every physical aspect. If Naruto reacted that much faster then he would've whooped Sasuke.

-Naruto needed Sage Mode to do to the 3rd Raikage practically the same thing that Sasuke did using his 3-Tomoe Sharingan.

Base Naruto=Base Sasuke (No Dojutsu) Are you also going to argue that Base Sasuke has reactions equal to Base Ay and reactions equal to Base Minato? Are you going to argue that Base Sasuke w/ no Dojutsu can even react mentally to Ay let alone physically? I really hope not. And no, this means that your comparisons don't make sense and are 100% false or that KCM Minato's boost isn't as large as Naruto's boost. So don't act like it's irrelevant to your points, because it's not. Whatever it means, it definitely shows that the difference in their reaction speed isn't the KCM power boost and it definitely shows that Base Naruto is not on par with Base Minato in reaction speed. So either:

-KCM Minato>>KCM Naruto, and none of the feats you have listed above are valid as I have shown.
-Or KCM Naruto=KCM Minato, but for some reason Minato's power up isn't the same as Naruto's.

Nah bro. VM's are a pain in the ass to argue with when we start typing paragraphs. Not to mention I don't even feel like addressing the moron above you.

And lmaoooo right. These people's lists are killing me, especially this Tobious Uchiha guy. Wtf? Kakashi above Ay? Lord.

 

[KidGamer65]

He's a decent deal better in physical ability. His feats were more impressive against Obito and Madara imo. The cloak does give him an extra boost over KCM without a doubt, it took him from needed a KB to use a "super Mini" BD to just his KB making Rasengan sized BD with just one hand. This is honestly a great feats in all departments

That's just chakra control, and he didn't do anything against Obito or Madara that'd make him more impressive in regular physical ability and speed. He barely fought against Obito and Madara in his BM w/o Avatar form.

- Strength is far greater, since KCM could barely hold it up with both arms and chakra arms (compared to one)
- Far greater chakra control (doesn't need extra limbs)
- Able to leap great distances despite the weight

-Nope. That was a larger Bijuu Dama that Naruto never completed. KCM and BM have both used mini Bijuu Dama with no trouble. The only thing BM has over KCM is that he can do this without using chakra arms due to better chakra control.

-Where is the bold coming from? Leaping with Mini BD? Not a feat that KCM can't do. The only thing KCM had issues holding was the Bijuu Dama he tried to form w/ B and against the Raikage. Mini BD is far smaller. So I don't see any reason why BM and KCM would be different in physical capabilities.

-snip-

Alright. I'll just wait for your reply since there's nothing I've changed my stance on.

 

[4 Sword Style]

What is all this post cloak and pre cloak shit Lol I don't know what's so hard to understand about him being a certain speed, getting a power up that makes him faster, and losing that speed when he loses the power up

All of this is baseless

 

[Ambivalence]

I knew there was no way EMS Sasuke was somehow equal to BSM Naruto in reactions. No offense to KG, of course.

 

[NarutoX28]

I think it makes sense. It's been emphasized how Sasuke's eyes were developing rapidly.

 

[RedRobin]

Nothing to address here since you are literally repeating what he already said without actually addressing anything.

Your counter to him was not sufficient. Ice brought up a great point and you failed to acknowledge it at all. Again Tsunade kept up with all the people involved. Top tier speedsters.

As to your point about Madara being faster. He was. You can clearly see Madara

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of Muu in this attack.

And this matters how?

Your reasoning is false, just because the water dragon is out of the scope of the panel doesnt mean its gone. I think its very clear to many people how fast paced this whole sequence was. Meaning there was no time between the point where Ay hits susano where WD could disappear.

No, it's not the point. You have no point. Neither does he. The only way you have a point is if Tsunade managed to hit it before the Susanoo could move from Ay's hit even though I've yet to see any reasoning from either of you as to why Ay's Karate Chop would make Susanoo move any significant distance in the first place.


Punch=/=Chop. So no. The last hit blew a hole in Madara's V2 Susanoo while the chop only cracked Ribcage.

This is true. But here is where Ice was right. Mei did send Madara out of her dragon at a very high speed which was stopped by Ay's karate chop. Then nothing else happens until Tsunade comes and makes the kick. Why was susano still in the air? Madara could have used a katon like he did a page ago, he could have reacted and done anything except Tsunade was simply that fast with her kick.

What you are saying literally makes no sense. Madara would have no reason to look forward until Tsunade hits his Susanoo from the front as nothing would be happening in front of him. You are grasping at straws and it's blatantly obvious. If this is what we are going to do then you can just stop replying now.

This is where you are wrong. Madara

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and while in reaction to Ay, Tsunade hits him. That right there tells you there is no time between Ay and Tsunade's hits.

He is stil reacting to Ay by the turn of his head, before he even moves a single muscle more, before he counter strikes Tsunade lands her hit.

Irrelevant.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Why would Tsunade be behind her the whole time? The fact of the matter is, Tsunade had from that moment till the moment Ay hit Susanoo, including everything inbetween, to get to Madara. So claiming that she departed and arrived right before Ay landed his hit is based on nothing.

You keep separating every single instance like this is not all playing out in one very fast sequence. What moment are you talking about? What inbetweens are there?

Tsunade was not behind Mei this whole time meaning she was still in her place where Madara's katon

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. Why? Because Mei released giant amounts of water and nothing shows Tsunade was moving through this water to stay close to the rest of the attack. Plus its simply stupid to think she would try and move through this water to get closer.

Lol what are you talking about? Me saying that she could've done it before isn't me discrediting the feat. It's me saying that the feat doesn't prove his main point.

Its not like you have not discredited the feat before. This is a crazy feat that no one takes into account when judging Tsunade's speed. With a feat like that, no way is she simply above average speed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your counter to him was not sufficient. Ice brought up a great point and you failed to acknowledge it at all. Again Tsunade kept up with all the people involved. Top tier speedsters.

As to your point about Madara being faster. He was. You can clearly see Madara

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of Muu in this attack.

Lol not only are they in the same general position when they stop, he is barely ahead of Mu so I have no idea what point you think you have here, but as usual when it comes to your arguments it doesn't exist.

Your reasoning is false, just because the water dragon is out of the scope of the panel doesnt mean its gone. I think its very clear to many people how fast paced this whole sequence was. Meaning there was no time between the point where Ay hits susano where WD could disappear.

Bold is irrelevant. I suggest you go back and read my posts before you reply again. I'll also suggest you actually show the underlined if you want to claim that it was there as a reference for this nonexistent feat.

This is true. But here is where Ice was right. Mei did send Madara out of her dragon at a very high speed which was stopped by Ay's karate chop. Then nothing else happens until Tsunade comes and makes the kick. Why was susano still in the air? Madara could have used a katon like he did a page ago, he could have reacted and done anything except Tsunade was simply that fast with her kick.

This is where you are wrong. Madara

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and while in reaction to Ay, Tsunade hits him. That right there tells you there is no time between Ay and Tsunade's hits.

Wtf? Ay and Tsunade's hits occurring in succession doesn't create a speed feat for Tsunade when you'd have to actually show me her leaving her starting position at a time that'd make her reaching Madara's Susanoo at the depicted moment a feat.

He is stil reacting to Ay by the turn of his head, before he even moves a single muscle more, before he counter strikes Tsunade lands her hit.

Irrelevant. I'll say this again. Madara would have no reason to look forward after getting hit so "she struck before he was able to turn around" or "she struck faster than he could turn around" doesn't work as an argument. Citing this feat with no reference to show how fast Tsunade traveled does nothing for your argument. That's why "lol No time passed in between their hits" isn't an argument.

You keep separating every single instance like this is not all playing out in one very fast sequence. What moment are you talking about? What inbetweens are there?

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Tsunade was not behind Mei this whole time meaning she was still in her place where Madara's katon

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. Why?

Because Mei released giant amounts of water and nothing shows Tsunade was moving through this water to stay close to the rest of the attack. Plus its simply stupid to think she would try and move through this water to get closer.

Irrelevant and a reach, which isn't surprising. Tsunade not being behind Mei every step of the way doesn't mean that Tsunade departed from her position at

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exact moment. The water is irrelevant as the only path to Madara's Susanoo isn't through the water, obviously.

Its not like you have not discredited the feat before. This is a crazy feat that no one takes into account when judging Tsunade's speed. With a feat like that, no way is she simply above average speed.

There is no feat. Just you overrating Tsunade as usual. The bold makes me cringe considering above average speed is the best Tsunade can hope for. Wouldn't be surprised if you thought she was in Ay's league. :lol

 

[Icelerate]

I would respond to you KG but I've got to catch up with my studies.

 

[RedRobin]

Lol not only are they in the same general position when they stop, he is barely ahead of Mu so I have no idea what point you think you have here, but as usual when it comes to your arguments it doesn't exist.

Still no answer to Ice's point. Aside from ignoring it. Still no answer to Tsunade keeping up with 3 top tier speedsters or people according to you she shouldnt be able to keep up with.

No. You can see Madara's feet are ahead of Muu. If this was a race Madara would be the clear without a doubt winner. Muu is clearly trailing behind Madara. Anyway you put it Madara is shown to be moving faster than Muu.

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not in the same position.

Bold is irrelevant. I suggest you go back and read my posts before you reply again. I'll also suggest you actually show the underlined if you want to claim that it was there as a reference for this nonexistent feat.

The bold was your whole point. You dont see WD so to you its no longer there. To you there was enough time in that sequence where water dragon could disappear before Tsunade makes her hit. Again many people can clearly see this was all done in a really fast sequence where Madara could not make a counter strike.

Wtf? Ay and Tsunade's hits occurring in succession doesn't create a speed feat for Tsunade when you'd have to actually show me her leaving her starting position at a time that'd make her reaching Madara's Susanoo at the depicted moment a feat.

Where else would she be? You have to show me she moved from that spot. I can bring evidence as to why she would stay there since Mei was using her attack. You cant bring anything.

Irrelevant. I'll say this again. Madara would have no reason to look forward after getting hit so "she struck before he was able to turn around" or "she struck faster than he could turn around" doesn't work as an argument. Citing this feat with no reference to show how fast Tsunade traveled does nothing for your argument. That's why "lol No time passed in between their hits" isn't an argument.

Thats no longer my point. I made a different point.

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Not an answer. I have been explaining myself and my points and you feel you dont need to. I could be childish too and link images or face palms but I am not.

Irrelevant and a reach, which isn't surprising. Tsunade not being behind Mei every step of the way doesn't mean that Tsunade departed from her position at

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exact moment. The water is irrelevant as the only path to Madara's Susanoo isn't through the water, obviously.

Very true KG but the only other way to reach it would be by a jump through air but Mei's dragon also blocked that route. So yeah please do explain what else Tsunade could have done. Main point is Mei had Madara occupied so there is nothing Tsunade should have been doing.

There is no feat. Just you overrating Tsunade as usual. The bold makes me cringe considering above average speed is the best Tsunade can hope for. Wouldn't be surprised if you thought she was in Ay's league. :lol

Nah there is. Just you discrediting it as usual. Explain to me how its not a feat worthwhile since you never like to give explanations to anything, just point out what you think is wrong.

 

[KidGamer65]

Still no answer to Ice's point. Aside from ignoring it. Still no answer to Tsunade keeping up with 3 top tier speedsters or people according to you she shouldnt be able to keep up with.

Who did she keep up with again? :lol Oh wait, nobody. There is no feat. I've addressed everything. You can stop wanking now because this is getting pretty ridiculous.

No. You can see Madara's feet are ahead of Muu. If this was a race Madara would be the clear without a doubt winner. Muu is clearly trailing behind Madara. Anyway you put it Madara is shown to be moving faster than Muu.

Yes, Madara is ahead. BARELY. That is the point.

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not in the same position.

No, that's definitely the same general position. Well, to anyone who isn't an oblivious tool.

The bold was your whole point. You dont see WD so to you its no longer there. To you there was enough time in that sequence where water dragon could disappear before Tsunade makes her hit. Again many people can clearly see this was all done in a really fast sequence where Madara could not make a counter strike.

Nope, it wasn't. I'll let you go back and read my post before you reply again.

Where else would she be? You have to show me she moved from that spot. I can bring evidence as to why she would stay there since Mei was using her attack. You cant bring anything.

:lol You kids really need to learn how to debate before replying to me. If you want to use an off panel feat to prove Tsunade's speed then you have to show that she departed Point A when you claim she did, and since you can't do that there is nothing to discuss here.

Not an answer. I have been explaining myself and my points and you feel you dont need to. I could be childish too and link images or face palms but I am not.

Good thing my answer to all this nonsense is below. :lol

Very true KG but the only other way to reach it would be by a jump through air but Mei's dragon also blocked that route. So yeah please do explain what else Tsunade could have done. Main point is Mei had Madara occupied so there is nothing Tsunade should have been doing.

Please stop being a fanboy for just one second if possible and start mustering up what little brain power you have to realize how ridiculous of a reach you are making.

1.

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Water Dragon would only block Tsunade off if she jumped towards Susanoo at an incline.

2. You can clearly see that came at Madara at a decline given the positioning of her body when she makes contact. So no, Water Dragon isn't blocking her path.

3. Mei occupying Madara doesn't meant that Tsunade has no reason to move. If their goal is to land a combination attack on him then her duty would be to get in position. Now, unless you can actually prove that Tsunade departed at

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exact moment then I'm not interested in anything more you have to say.

nah there is. Just you discrediting it as usual. Explain to me how its not a feat worthwhile since you never like to give explanations to anything, just point out what you think is wrong.

Already have and all I've gotten this is pathetic reply. Stop wasting my time buddy.

 

[Uchihakil]

I will be the first then to question why madara is in a different tier than naruto and sasuke, and if movie characters/feats are used (toneri being on the list) momoshiki should be in the same tier as RSM naruto and sasuke and above them in the tier, madara should also be on the same tier, toneri is faster than Ay as he was on par with kurama chakra sage mode naruto who is superior to KCM naruto who is faster than Ay, and tobirama is faster than base hashirama due to madara's statement saying he was once the fastest shinobi, and yes madara let sasuke cut him (because a weaker madara blocked 8 gates guys issoku who is way faster than sasuke in footspeed in footspeed), so there is no waay in hell did sasuke blitz madara, just like how lee hit madara, as madara said he became ungraceful while fighting since he gained regeneration (well he said hashi cells but since he was an edo he got hit by attacks he could have defended against)

 

[Uchihakil]

I will be the first then to question why madara is in a different tier than naruto and sasuke, and if movie characters/feats are used (toneri being on the list) momoshiki should be in the same tier as RSM naruto and sasuke and above them in the tier, madara should also be on the same tier, toneri is faster than Ay as he was on par with kurama chakra sage mode naruto who is superior to KCM naruto who is faster than Ay, and tobirama is faster than base hashirama due to madara's statement saying he was once the fastest shinobi, and yes madara let sasuke cut him (because a weaker madara blocked 8 gates guys issoku who is way faster than sasuke in footspeed in footspeed), so there is no waay in hell did sasuke blitz madara, just like how lee hit madara, as madara said he became ungraceful while fighting since he gained regeneration (well he said hashi cells but since he was an edo he got hit by attacks he could have defended against)

 

[DrProof]

I was really going to f*ck this tier list up on Gaara's behalf until I read this: Space time jutsu and non foot speed related movement isn't taken to account.

Lol, bruh what Kakuzu below Kisame in SPEED. You can't be serious if anything they are equal, or Kakuzu is above him. Not to mention you have ASUMA above Kakuzu someone who Kakuzu BLITZED while Asuma was looking DIRECTLY at him. Not sure if this is bias or just misunderstanding.

 

[shelke]

What a bad list. So, who made this; the illustrious debating lobby?

I was really going to f*ck this tier list up on Gaara's behalf until I read this: Space time jutsu and non foot speed related movement isn't taken to account.

Lol, bruh what Kakuzu below Kisame in SPEED. You can't be serious if anything they are equal, or Kakuzu is above him. Not to mention you have ASUMA above Kakuzu someone who Kakuzu BLITZED while Asuma was looking DIRECTLY at him. Not sure if this is bias or just misunderstanding.

People are too obtuse to notice that Samehada moves, exerts pressure and even blocks (at times) on its own. Asuma had better reflexes compared to Kisame, as shown in part one when he dodged his massive sword, swung twice at extremely close distance. Whilst Kakuzu blitzed him. Kisame wankery is off the charts in Vs battles. This cancerous list is one such facet of it.

 

[Icelerate]

So? Madara and Mu charged and from what we can see there's no reason to believe that either would be holding back, but from external feats we can tell that Madara obviously wasn't moving at top speed as he is far faster than Mu.

Are there feats that make Naruto and Sasuke's scans invalid? No. There aren't.

You're not always moving in combat at your fastest but when trying to punch someone, there is no reason one would hold back their punch so your point is invalid.

Are there feats that make base Ay and Tsunade's scans invalid? No, There aren't.

Last sentence can be answered by simply looking at the scan. If WD was still moving Madara would be in the dragon and not away from the dragon.

Are you even following the panels/arguments properly? Madara's susanoo was spat out of the WD.

Anyhow since you seem to agree that the average velocity of the susanoo after getting spit out of the WD is roughly equal to its instantaneous velocity before Ay hit it, my point has been proven already.

What are you even talking about? Speed lines are only shown when someone is moving high speed first of all. Movement lines are what depict movement and you can see lines on Ay's body and on Tsunade's body. So no, they were both in motion, and Ay wasn't moving backwards. Not sure where the feat is here.

Agreed.

-No, Susanoo wasn't sent forward by Ay's Karate Chop. Literally nothing implies that.
-Even if it was, Tsunade being able to hit it before it can move a meter is irrelevant since you'd have to show that the speed it'd be sent away at would be worth noting, and you'd have to prove that Tsunade charged Susanoo right when Ay hit it even though she had any time after Mei intervened to do something.

-Then that means that susanoo was still moving in the same direction as it was when Mei's WD spat it out which makes my average velocity point easier to prove. Although it has already been proven because you didn't respond to it.
-If Tsunade charged at susanoo before Ay hit it, then that means Tsunade had enough momentum to catch up to the susanoo even before Ay hit it. Then there is the fact that the susanoo was already moving before Tsunade started to move so why exactly does it need to be proven when exactly Tsunade started moving? Like PawsX mentionned, there was water in the shortest path to the susanoo so Tsunade would have had to travel across a large path than the WD.

There is no scan here that shows her outspeeding Orochimaru. :lol He was surprised her trembling stopped and that's when she managed to land a surprise hit. Nothing to do with speed, at least in the sense of who was faster than who.

Okay.

-The jumping feat doesn't matter as there's nothing that shows she couldn't have done it before.

There's no proof it could have been done before. Not when the bursts of speed Tsunade used before was nothing compared to what she did with Bunta's sword. This is inspite the fact that Tsunade was slowed down tremendously by having to carry weight much heavier than herself.

 

[Tazzilla88]

I suppose I will try my hand at this.

Point one: Ay when he made contact with Susanoo was made heavier boosting his strength
Point Two: Being heavier Ay could not float or fly
Point Three: Ay is still directly next to Susanoo when Tsunade makes contact
Point Four: In the time between Ay hitting the Susanoo and Tsunade hitting it Oonoki did not use Ultralight weight technique to fly with Ay
Point Five: Ay had not yet started to fall as his clothes don't display any kind of movement suggesting falling,whereas on the next page evidence of falling can be seen in Tsunade's appearance and Oonoki's hair.
Point Six: Landing is a thing as Tsunade was the first to land (also suggesting that she began falling before Oonoki and Ay)
Conlcusion: Tsunade hit Susanoo quickly enough following Ay's strike that he hadn't began to fall after transferring his momentum into the Susanoo.

In terms of Tsunade's starting point,
Point One:we don't know her starting point for sure I'll grant you that.
Point Two: we know where Ay and Oonoki were,
Point Three:We know that Tsunade wasn't in the same panel.
Point Four: We know Tsunade got there almost immediately afterwards.
Conclusion: Tsunade moved fast enough to come from off panel when a speedster was on panel to assist said speedster

 

[Icelerate]

I suppose I will try my hand at this.

Point one: Ay when he made contact with Susanoo was made heavier boosting his strength
Point Two: Being heavier Ay could not float or fly
Point Three: Ay is still directly next to Susanoo when Tsunade makes contact
Point Four: In the time between Ay hitting the Susanoo and Tsunade hitting it Oonoki did not use Ultralight weight technique to fly with Ay
Point Five: Ay had not yet started to fall as his clothes don't display any kind of movement suggesting falling,whereas on the next page evidence of falling can be seen in Tsunade's appearance and Oonoki's hair.
Point Six: Landing is a thing as Tsunade was the first to land (also suggesting that she began falling before Oonoki and Ay)
Conlcusion: Tsunade hit Susanoo quickly enough following Ay's strike that he hadn't began to fall after transferring his momentum into the Susanoo.

1. Correct.
2. Good point, I did not realize this.
3. Correct.
4. Correct.
5. Does this mean Tsunade started moving before Ay hit susanoo?
6. Tsunade was closer to the ground compared to Ay right after Tsunade hit the susanoo.
Conclusion: How would you quantify this speed feat?

In terms of Tsunade's starting point,
Point One:we don't know her starting point for sure I'll grant you that.
Point Two: we know where Ay and Oonoki were,
Point Three:We know that Tsunade wasn't in the same panel.
Point Four: We know Tsunade got there almost immediately afterwards.
Conclusion: Tsunade moved fast enough to come from off panel when a speedster was on panel to assist said speedster

1. Correct.
2. Correct.
3. Correct.
4. How would you quantify this feat though? Is Tsunade traveling faster than Mei's water dragon or is KidGamer right?
Conclusion: What do you mean? Ay was in midair and unable to move except for free fall.

 

[Edogawa]

This list has too many mistakes.

Addressing terms: speed, reactions and reflexes are all different terms. People use them interchangeably when they are all different. Your thread is speaking about speed, which literally means moving from point A to point B. Therefore, this makes reactions and reflexes have no relevancy in this ranking.

-Maito Gai is on a tier of his own which nobody will ever come close to. He physically altered the fabric of space-time, which would mean he was either travelling at equal or faster speed than light.

-Rikudou-powered characters all have comparable speed to each other, since they are using Rikudou Senjutsu.

-Adult Sasuke has no speed feat to justify his position above tier 2 and 3, and to state otherwise without manga proof is a core of ridiculousness.

I don't want to address too much, but I said the most relevant things.

 

[Tazzilla88]

1. Correct.
2. Good point, I did not realize this.
3. Correct.
4. Correct.
5. Does this mean Tsunade started moving before Ay hit susanoo?
6. Tsunade was closer to the ground compared to Ay right after Tsunade hit the susanoo.
Conclusion: How would you quantify this speed feat?

1. Correct.
2. Correct.
3. Correct.
4. How would you quantify this feat though? Is Tsunade traveling faster than Mei's water dragon or is KidGamer right?
Conclusion: What do you mean? Ay was in midair and unable to move except for free fall.

5. Most Likely, it's hard to imagine she'd be standing where we last saw her and yet strike directly after an Ay who is not weighted and is in the panel.
6. Yes thats fair
Conclusion 1: Tsunade's attack followed so closely behind Ay's that gravity didn't have time to start pulling him downward. That's one way of quantifying it. The other way is that the entirety of the Water Dragon's head was able to fit on panel and Tsunade was no where to be seen. Meaning she was at the very least that distance away as a starting point. If we can establish no other starting point the edge of the frame can be used as it shows the minimum distance she must have logically traveled.

4. I would argue that she moved faster than the water dragon as the most direct path to the susanoo was the same path the water dragon took, meaning that Tsunade had to have taken a less direct path, and as KG pointed out she is striking the susanoo downward from an upward position suggesting that she had jumped higher than the water dragon to reach Madara. Given that the water dragon's tongue accerlerated the susanoo faster than any other portion of the water dragon that was moving it necessarily means that the susanoo accelerated faster than the water dragon, given that the time gap between Ay and Tsunade's attack was not long enough for gravity to affect Ay, it is most likely that Tsunade was going fast enough to outspeed the water dragon and catch up to the susanoo.
Conclusion 2: What I mean is that she was moving quickly enough that she was able to provide Ay with real time support. (Compare this for instance with Mei's use of Youton)Doing so implies a certain amount of speed. Namely that Ay had just entered the frame allowing you to know that what ever is happening on frame is happening quickly. As opposed to say if Gaara had ran onto frame. If you combine conclusion one and two you may be able to more closely quantify the feat as a whole.