old Hiruzen vs 4 tailed Naruto

[TRE MERCER]

He outlasts until naruto runs out of chakra or elemental attacks kill him.

Old Hiruzen is going to outlast KN4 Naruto in terms of what? Stamina Nope. Chakra Nope.
LMAO!!!

 

[Draegod]

If Hiruzen knew every jutsu in Konoha why didn't he use Yomi Numa to sink the Buddha? Why not use FTG to beat Orochimaru?

While I believe Hiruzen has a lot more in his arsenal that hasn't been shown, I think we should be conservative in what feats we give him. His hype of knowing every jutsu in Konoha is just that- hype. Just like his hype of him being the strongest hokage in his prime (base Hashirama stomps him.) I think we can give him all element-based jutsu that are C-ranked or D-ranked, and Hiden ninjutsu like shadow posession and expansion jutsu (DB mentions somewhere that he knows Hiden ninjutsu.) but that's it. No Hyuuga techniques, Aburame jutsus, or Inuzuka jutsus since those require specific relationships with animals that Hiruzen doesn't have.

Kishi and manga>>>Your opinion. Why doesn't kakashi use genjutsu in his fights all the time? Why doesn't Hyugas use their elements when fighting? Why doesn't Itachi copy more jutsu and fight like kakashi? Why Doesn't Sasuke use Shadow clones when he has the capability? Why doesn't Tobirama use Ftg like Minato more often? Why doesn't Oru use more elemental jutsus instead of snakes? Why doesn't Minato stay a sensor instead of keeping it inactive most the time? Why didn't Kin Gin Brothers use the other 4 elements with the 5 elemental fan? Why didnt Sakura use elemental jutsus or genjutsu in part 2? Why doesn't Shikamaru use elemental jutsu's? Why doesnt minato use a single elemental jutsu? etc etc

Do I need to go on? Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it isn't possible. In Hiruzen cae it is specifically stated in great detail what jutsu he has mastery over. And that includes all Non-KKG jutsu's in Konaha during his Lifetime as a ninja/Kage. This is fact! Why would he set up FTG agaisnt Oru when it was useless? And who is to say he didnt use other jutsu's against the Buhda off panel. The fact that they beat him off panel kills your argument unless you magically seen the entire fight and know he didnt use other jutsu's.

And no, Base Hashirama does not stomp Prime Databook Hiruzen. You give Hiruzen Tobirama/Jman chakra and he's on equal footing if not better.

 

[EZQ]

Kishi and manga>>>Your opinion. Why doesn't kakashi use genjutsu in his fights all the time? Why doesn't Hyugas use their elements when fighting? Why doesn't Itachi copy more jutsu and fight like kakashi? Why Doesn't Sasuke use Shadow clones when he has the capability? Why doesn't Tobirama use Ftg like Minato more often? Why doesn't Oru use more elemental jutsus instead of snakes? Why doesn't Minato stay a sensor instead of keeping it inactive most the time? Why didn't Kin Gin Brothers use the other 4 elements with the 5 elemental fan? Why didnt Sakura use elemental jutsus or genjutsu in part 2? Why doesn't Shikamaru use elemental jutsu's? Why doesnt minato use a single elemental jutsu? etc etc

Do I need to go on? Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it isn't possible. In Hiruzen cae it is specifically stated in great detail what jutsu he has mastery over. And that includes all Non-KKG jutsu's in Konaha during his Lifetime as a ninja/Kage. This is fact! Why would he set up FTG agaisnt Oru when it was useless? And who is to say he didnt use other jutsu's against the Buhda off panel. The fact that they beat him off panel kills your argument unless you magically seen the entire fight and know he didnt use other jutsu's.

And no, Base Hashirama does not stomp Prime Databook Hiruzen. You give Hiruzen Tobirama/Jman chakra and he's on equal footing if not better.

This is the worst post i've read ever. I'll reply tomorrow

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Someone who can fire off a near bijuu sized element stream on a moment's notice can't use anything more than a C-rank doton used by another Konoha nin? Especially when the databook also confirms his elemental mastery? Yeah, I find that hard to believe. Like Draegod said, just because a ninja wasn't seen using a certain technique on panel doesn't mean that they cannot use it, and it certainly doesn't mean that the readers shouldn't pinpoint the particular contexts in which a ninja should be granted a jutsu.

 

[Curse Mark]

Old Hiruzen is going to outlast KN4 Naruto in terms of what? Stamina Nope. Chakra Nope.
LMAO!!!

Fool.

 

[EZQ]

Someone who can fire off a near bijuu sized element stream on a moment's notice can't use anything more than a C-rank doton used by another Konoha nin? Especially when the databook also confirms his elemental mastery? Yeah, I find that hard to believe. Like Draegod said, just because a ninja wasn't seen using a certain technique on panel doesn't mean that they cannot use it, and it certainly doesn't mean that the readers shouldn't pinpoint the particular contexts in which a ninja should be granted a jutsu.

I don't disagree on Hiruzen's elemental prowess. I'm talking about the other jutsus, the special ones. Which IF he can use, he can't do them on a level that they are useful for battle. (Hidden clan techs and some S-ranked techs).

 

[Curse Mark]

I don't disagree on Hiruzen's elemental prowess. I'm talking about the other jutsus, the special ones. Which IF he can use, he can't do them on a level that they are useful for battle. (Hidden clan techs and some S-ranked techs).

I don't think anyone really believes that he can use clan jutsu or KG

 

[Draegod]

I don't disagree on Hiruzen's elemental prowess. I'm talking about the other jutsus, the special ones. Which IF he can use, he can't do them on a level that they are useful for battle. (Hidden clan techs and some S-ranked techs).

Databook specifically states Hidden clan techs. This is non-refuteable! He has already cannoly used a S rank tech with zero practice 3 times perfectly! Nothing in the village is more complicated then a 5-9 seal Forbidden jutsu that has only been seen once and and never practiced. Shadow possesion, expansion, mind switch etc are all not KKG and aren't impossible to learn (hint Genin using them). If you think Genin are smarter or more advance then The smartest Kage (Databook) then delete your account.

 

[Curse Mark]

Databook specifically states Hidden clan techs. This is non-refuteable! He has already cannoly used a S rank tech with zero practice 3 times perfectly! Nothing in the village is more complicated then a 5-9 seal Forbidden jutsu that has only been seen once and and never practiced. Shadow possesion, expansion, mind switch etc are all not KKG and aren't impossible to learn (hint Genin using them). If you think Genin are smarter or more advance then The smartest Kage (Databook) then delete your account.

Not a bad argument really

 

[Icelerate]

Hiruzen can use all generic elemental jutsu utilized by Konoha shinobi. However, he doesn't get any feats for specialized jutsu that other high level shinobi have put in the time and effort to master.

This is the worst post i've read ever. I'll reply tomorrow

Worst post yet you liked it.

 

[Draegod]

Hiruzen can use all generic elemental jutsu utilized by Konoha shinobi. However, he doesn't get any feats for specialized jutsu that other high level shinobi have put in the time and effort to master.


Worst post yet you liked it.

And who is to say he didnt put in time and effort to master them? He is arguable the smartest kage ever, mastered Many jutsu and was praised by Tobirama to be a Kage at a young age. Databook and manga over your opinion. A can name 50+ ninjas we never seen train and master/learn something, but the manga says they have it or can do it. Horrible example that proves nothing but hate.

 

[Icelerate]

And who is to say he didnt put in time and effort to master them? He is arguable the smartest kage ever, mastered Many jutsu and was praised by Tobirama to be a Kage at a young age. Databook and manga over your opinion. A can name 50+ ninjas we never seen train and master/learn something, but the manga says they have it or can do it. Horrible example that proves nothing but hate.

Being smart, mastering many jutsu and being praised by Tobirama doesn't prove he can use specialized jutsu like FTG or Byakogou. The databook doesn't show how well Hiruzen can use the jutsu neither does the manga therefore unquantifiable. If we were to blindly follow databook, Temari can blow away the universe. If the manga shows how well a shinobi uses a tech, than it can be used otherwise if the manga says something abstract, no need to fret over it.

 

[EZQ]

Databook specifically states Hidden clan techs. This is non-refuteable! He has already cannoly used a S rank tech with zero practice 3 times perfectly! Nothing in the village is more complicated then a 5-9 seal Forbidden jutsu that has only been seen once and and never practiced. Shadow possesion, expansion, mind switch etc are all not KKG and aren't impossible to learn (hint Genin using them). If you think Genin are smarter or more advance then The smartest Kage (Databook) then delete your account.

Okay, read my posts bud. He can use them maybe, but that doesn't mean he knows how to use them to a level they're useful against Kage level oponents.

And your argument about doing a jutsu he has never seen is really stupid. Minato also didn't practice that jutsu before because you die if you do. Those kind of jutsus are written in scrolls, that's how they are learned. So he knowing :

-S rank elemental jutsus --> OFC, he's the best elemental user seen in the manga

-Hidden clan's jutsus --> Probably, but not to a level he can actually use them in battle

Stop standing up for this hyperbole.

 

[Draegod]

Okay, read my posts bud. He can use them maybe, but that doesn't mean he knows how to use them to a level they're useful against Kage level oponents.

And your argument about doing a jutsu he has never seen is really stupid. Minato also didn't practice that jutsu before because you die if you do. Those kind of jutsus are written in scrolls, that's how they are learned. So he knowing :

-S rank elemental jutsus --> OFC, he's the best elemental user seen in the manga

-Hidden clan's jutsus --> Probably, but not to a level he can actually use them in battle

Stop standing up for this hyperbole.

My next question is simple; Why wouldn't he be able to use Shadow possesion similar to Shikamaru? Is it because Shika is better? It can't be because of learning since it was simple enough genin can learn while being academy level etc. A Ninjutsu is only as good as the user. Sexy Jutsu Helped against a God etc.

 

[NarutoX28]

My next question is simple; Why wouldn't he be able to use Shadow possesion similar to Shikamaru? Is it because Shika is better? It can't be because of learning since it was simple enough genin can learn while being academy level etc. A Ninjutsu is only as good as the user. Sexy Jutsu Helped against a God etc.

Because Shikamaru naturally has the chakra associated with Yin Release, hence why he's going to be better at utilizing it.

It's the same reason why a non-Uchiha can't use the Sharingan as well as the Uchiha can.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Hiruzen fans are the worst lmao. Im just waiting for someone to explain how Old alive Hiruzen is going to accomplish the same feats he did as an Edo without killing himself.

Raition stream useless we've already seen that not even Raikiri can pierce a v2 cloaks actual body.(This was done by a weaker bijuu as well so i could go on the record and say Kurama v2 is more durable that other v2 and not be far off since Kishi and the Manga both made it a point to let the readers know that Kurama is superior to every bijuu.)

Fire- Doesn't matter the size it's completely useless seeing as a chakra shroud effortlessly blocked bijuu sized katons.

Water- literally does no damage what so ever.

Doton/mud gets ran right through.

All of Hiruzens elements are useless. inb4 someone says he uses them in combos like he did while he was edo.

.......

Yes because Hiruzen will have the time and chakra to execute all these array of jutsu he has under his belt. Ill wait for some fanfic combinations of jutsu Hiruzen will pull out.

Fool.

How???????

Hiruzen loses to Bijuu Dama in S2 but practically demolishes KN4 in S1. Enma gives him the advantage in CQC, and all other ranges of combat are dominated by him due to his elemental attacks.

Hiruzen elements helps him 0 here when he can't even use them on that same scale and even if he could it wouldn't matter much anyways.

 

[Warlocks]

Naruto WINS

 

[Curse Mark]

How long has naruto been shown to use the 9 tails chakra?

 

[Draegod]

Because Shikamaru naturally has the chakra associated with Yin Release, hence why he's going to be better at utilizing it.

It's the same reason why a non-Uchiha can't use the Sharingan as well as the Uchiha can.

lol Now you're just making the shit up. He is being passed down the sc\ecrets on how to use the jutsu, it isnt a KKG blood limit only techs. Hiruzen is both Yin and Yang master, he mastered the jutsu's as stated by Kishi himself no disputing my guy.

The uchiha example is horrible and sad considering:

1. Sharingan is KKG
2. Itachi praised Kakashi for mastering the eyes despite not being from his clan. He is th ebest 3 tomoe user we have ever seen making use of teh full potential of the eyes despite never being trained by an uchiha or being from the clan. lmao

Hidden clan techs are just that, hidden clan techs. Techs passed down with in clans. Just like RDS being passed down in the Uzamaki clan and whirlpool country, but wait! Hiruzen and minato mastered a Jutsu that was specifically from Uzamaki's clan that even Oru never heard of. He cannonly Used a hidden clan s rank jutsu perfectly.

Not wasting my time with clueless users who defy Manga and databook facts with literally nothing but there ass hurt feelings because they dont want to believe a character could be so powerful. Just keep praising sasuke and stop quoting me.

 

[Waltz]

Its as follows:

"He can use all of Konohas Jutsu because the Databook and Orochimaru claimed he could but he can't use every jutsu in the Village of Konoha but don't worry that's not at all a contradictory and I am sure that even as an old man Hiruzen still knew the handseal combinations of every jutsu in Konoha I think he can perform and can use them in battle despite Orochimaru already stating that his performance against him was inferior to 10 years prior and him not showing anything near 50% of what I am claiming he could produce and my evidence is that the Databook and Manga say's he could and we saw him use less than 1/4 of all of the jutsu in Konoha but hey! Don't look at that. Ignore the fact that I think at 70years old his brain contains information about more jutsu then Kakahi was claimed to copy with the Sharingan but Look at the fact that he was a researcher and mastered all the elements because that is evidence supporting the claim. Don't worry about the many different Hidden clan Jutsus in the village look and the only one he was ever able to perform. Yes, what I am telling you is that because he can perform one it therefore he knows all and calm your nipples, this isn't wank. Although it is no where written that it was in his physical prime he mastered this vast array of jutsu, Look at the fact that I think this is when it happened and he kept all this information in his brain to the grave and lol don't worry about the fact that no one ever kept tabs or there being any documented fact on him learning every Jutsu because people don't spread rumors in the NV and its written in the Databook so it has to be true. Any jutsu a Genin can perform can be performed by Hiruzen at a high level because I know the order by which he learned Jutsu and it was easiest first so these he can use in battle because I know he remebers these at 70years of age Databook and Manga claims are true here because despite the vast lack of evidence I think it's true. The author wrote it there, so it's true. The author also wrote Yata being able to defend against any attack but sike! That ain't true because that's fallacious and Itachi isn't Hiruzen and to end THIS IS NOT A WANK. "​