old Hiruzen vs 4 tailed Naruto

[Curse Mark]

The dude split his chakra further into thirds. I agree, he certainly had chakra, but he was fatigued and panting which meant that he was running low on chakra.

Each Reaper Death seal was done with each clone individually, so it's not like he's using up extra chakra on top of his clones.

Summoning doesn't consume that much chakra. Not even.

And Minato used Reaper Death Seal and sealed 50% Kurama into himself while he hardly had any chakra, so Reaper Death Seal hardly requires that much chakra.

And the Shurikens were included in his "3 techniques".

I disagree. It's a serious fuinjutsu. And clones using techniques takes from your chakra because when Naruto had clones learning rasenshuriken it was still taxing his chakra.

 

[MickNerks]

Databook Hiruzen is a hyperbol m8. He clearly can't perform every jutsu in konoha to a level they are useful in battle. Why?

When he was brought back as edo, he didn't have the old body problems (pain and low stamina) so there were absolutely no reasons to not use the best in his arsenal. If he could perform every jutsu in Konoha, he'd have used a lot of OP jutsus we've seen and soloed the Guguru. But the only thing he made was stalemate it until it got destroyed by Karin. (He could also have used Karin's same jutsu to destroy it)

So because you havent seen him use the jutsu he isnt capable of doing it. You do realize that is the exact same thing people were saying about hiruzens ability to use all 5 elements until he used them against Gururu. At this point there is no point in arguing against the databook and manga, its already proved you wrong before.

And how is the 4th databook saying he mastered all jutsu in the hidden leaf a hyperbole, when its literally the last closing description of the manga "shippuden".

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Hiruzen has the reflexes to keep up with Orochimaru, not the speed or mobility that Orochimaru possessed due to his elasticity. Databook even supports that notion when Hiruzen is 3 tiers below Orochimaru in speed. That's absolutely massive.

Irrelevant if Orochimaru is faster, not when I showed that his speed feats, which you suggested he had zero. Despite that, we have Hidan who also has the same speed range as Hiruzen, and yet was capable of putting Kakashi on his toes, and being neck to neck and running down each
other.

How do we know this?

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Except there's no indication that Hashirama was moving at his fastest as even he admitted that he didn't stand a chance against Juubito.

Except theres no reason to believe Hashirama wanted to move as slow as possible. Which is completely stupid and illogical to do believe in the first place. I dont know how you think admitting he is inferioir, means he wants to take his time over there Lol. Desperate down play is desperate

 

[NarutoX28]

Irrelevant if Orochimaru is faster, not when I showed that his speed feats, which you suggested he had zero. Despite that, we have Hidan who also has the same speed range as Hiruzen, and yet was capable of putting Kakashi on his toes, and being neck to neck and running down each
other.

His speed couldn't pressure Kakashi. It was due to having a longer range weapon, sufficient reflexes, and Kakashi being forced to fight defensively is what gave Kakashi trouble. When we look at feats, Kakashi can certainly outclass him.

His speed feats are questionable which is why I don't agree with some of them and there is absolutely nothing significant when we look at what Hiruzen has done on his own.

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Wouldn't this apply to Minato as well, who possesses a superior Shunshin to Tobirama and even moreso with KCM?

If you think about it, it still makes no sense. You're making the assumption that Hiruzen is on Madara's speed tier because he actually kept up with Hashirama. Makes no sense.

Except theres no reason to believe Hashirama wanted to move as slow as possible. Which is completely stupid and illogical to do believe in the first place. I dont know how you think admitting he is inferioir, means he wants to take his time over there Lol. Desperate down play is desperate

No, it means Hashirama can absolutely do nothing against Juubito on his own, so charging there recklessly and getting sliced into pieces while he's forced to regenerate his body (which takes time) isn't a smart choice.

Sasuke himself traveled and reached the War Battlefield within the same time as Jugo. Does that mean Jugo = Sasuke?

I seriously hope not.

 

[Draegod]

Then a Chakra Roar can fit through the gaps of the cage.

His Stamina was low. He was exhausted after using 3 techniques and engaging in a short CQC exchange.

He was never exhausted. He was rusty, then used 3 clones (A rank), RDS (s rank), Mud wall (B rank), Fire dragon (B rank), Casually used enma after he warmed up agaisnt A sword master who taught Sasuke, had a sword in his spine but over powered a healthy Oru (A sick Oru was toying with 4tails btw), Faught 2 kage Edo's at the same time. etc etc

Yeaaaaaa, no! Stamina isnt that serious unless you can name a ninja who could go long periods with a legendary sword in his spine and not give up.

 

[NarutoX28]

I disagree. It's a serious fuinjutsu. And clones using techniques takes from your chakra because when Naruto had clones learning rasenshuriken it was still taxing his chakra.

It's a serious fuinjutsu due to its capabilities and the effect it has on its user (which is death).

I know clones takes away from his chakra, but using that jutsu with the clones only uses the chakra within the clones, not additional chakra from Hiruzen.

Naruto was extremely fatigued due to the hours of training which accumulated towards mental fatigue as well. Hiruzen wasn't in a position at all where he would accumulate extreme mental fatigue, not from 2 clones. Not even.

 

[Draegod]

Databook Hiruzen is a hyperbol m8. He clearly can't perform every jutsu in konoha to a level they are useful in battle. Why?

When he was brought back as edo, he didn't have the old body problems (pain and low stamina) so there were absolutely no reasons to not use the best in his arsenal. If he could perform every jutsu in Konoha, he'd have used a lot of OP jutsus we've seen and soloed the Guguru. But the only thing he made was stalemate it until it got destroyed by Karin. (He could also have used Karin's same jutsu to destroy it)

HE battled a Juubi host.. Battle a mini version of Hashirama's best jutsu.. And most his fights were off panel! Now tell me, agaisnt Obito, what could he have done differently when it was fact he was analyzing Obito's powers as explained by sasuke. Nothing you say disproves anything:

Fact 1: Held barrier most the time
Fact 2: Solo'd by Juubito (all of them were solo'd)
Fact 3: Helped defeat the Buhda statue off camera

 

[Draegod]

It's a serious fuinjutsu due to its capabilities and the effect it has on its user (which is death).

I know clones takes away from his chakra, but using that jutsu with the clones only uses the chakra within the clones, not additional chakra from Hiruzen.

Naruto was extremely fatigued due to the hours of training which accumulated towards mental fatigue as well. Hiruzen wasn't in a position at all where he would accumulate extreme mental fatigue, not from 2 clones. Not even.

When the clones leave, its chakra goes back to the user correct? If the S rank Jutsu used majority of the clones chakra and pain, then the little chakra left along with the pain of a death s rank jutsu goes back to the OG Hiruzen. And he still went off agaisnt Oru.

 

[NarutoX28]

When the clones leave, its chakra goes back to the user correct? If the S rank Jutsu used majority of the clones chakra and pain, then the little chakra left along with the pain of a death s rank jutsu goes back to the OG Hiruzen. And he still went off agaisnt Oru.

I highly doubt that.

No user has ever received pain from chakra dispersed from a damaged clone. That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Draegod]

I highly doubt that.

No user has ever received pain from chakra dispersed from a damaged clone. That doesn't even make sense.

Not the pain,

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. And there is no doubt using the tech Twice took alot out of him when even Minato was complaining (despite the heavy chakra from kyubi, when 2 kages of their level also had huge chakra pools)!

 

[Curse Mark]

I highly doubt that.

No user has ever received pain from chakra dispersed from a damaged clone. That doesn't even make sense.

The damage no. And I think if the clone is killed the chakra doesn't go back.


Doesn't each shadow clone halve your chakra?

 

[Beans2]

If Hiruzen knew every jutsu in Konoha why didn't he use Yomi Numa to sink the Buddha? Why not use FTG to beat Orochimaru?

While I believe Hiruzen has a lot more in his arsenal that hasn't been shown, I think we should be conservative in what feats we give him. His hype of knowing every jutsu in Konoha is just that- hype. Just like his hype of him being the strongest hokage in his prime (base Hashirama stomps him.) I think we can give him all element-based jutsu that are C-ranked or D-ranked, and Hiden ninjutsu like shadow posession and expansion jutsu (DB mentions somewhere that he knows Hiden ninjutsu.) but that's it. No Hyuuga techniques, Aburame jutsus, or Inuzuka jutsus since those require specific relationships with animals that Hiruzen doesn't have.

 

[Curse Mark]

If Hiruzen knew every jutsu in Konoha why didn't he use Yomi Numa to sink the Buddha? Why not use FTG to beat Orochimaru?

Eh. Why didn't he use earth moving core to lower it? Kishi chose that this was a better story.

 

[NarutoX28]

The damage no. And I think if the clone is killed the chakra doesn't go back.


Doesn't each shadow clone halve your chakra?

I never said that and at the time, I think there were many implications in Part 1 that suggests that clone's chakra do not go back into the original. Part 2 is where that has changed IMO.

No, your chakra is equally distributed among the amount of clones you make.

For example, if you make 1 clone, you split your chakra in half. Make 3 clones and you split your chakra in fourths. Since Hiruzen made 2 clones, he only split his chakra in thirds.

 

[Curse Mark]

I never said that and at the time, I think there were many implications in Part 1 that suggests that clone's chakra do not go back into the original. Part 2 is where that has changed IMO.

No, your chakra is equally distributed among the amount of clones you make.

For example, if you make 1 clone, you split your chakra in half. Make 3 clones and you split your chakra in fourths. Since Hiruzen made 2 clones, he only split his chakra in thirds.

Pretty sure if they're destroyed you can nothing but if you release them you gain it back.

Also, yeah that makes sense. But so Hiruzen lost over 2/3 of his chakra/ stamina just from that one attack when he sealed the hokages.

 

[NarutoX28]

Pretty sure if they're destroyed you can nothing but if you release them you gain it back.

Also, yeah that makes sense. But so Hiruzen lost over 2/3 of his chakra/ stamina just from that one attack when he sealed the hokages.

Roughly.

 

[Curse Mark]

Roughly.

I need to reread that fight though. I forget how far into it that was. But still, he has more chakra/ stamina than some people make it outto be.

 

[NarutoX28]

I need to reread that fight though. I forget how far into it that was. But still, he has more chakra/ stamina than some people make it outto be.

I doubt it. He used 3 techniques and engaged in a short CQC exchange before he was panting for multiple panels.

If that's the case, then outrunning KN4 Naruto will be difficult if his Stamina is that low.

 

[Curse Mark]

I doubt it. He used 3 techniques and engaged in a short CQC exchange before he was panting for multiple panels.

If that's the case, then outrunning KN4 Naruto will be difficult if his Stamina is that low.

What are you saying that you doubt?

 

[NarutoX28]

Not the pain,

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. And there is no doubt using the tech Twice took alot out of him when even Minato was complaining (despite the heavy chakra from kyubi, when 2 kages of their level also had huge chakra pools)!

Hiruzen isn't affected by what the clones experience in terms of physical changes, but mental information always returns back to the original. Hiruzen never experienced mental fatigue as he hardly maintained anywhere near as many clones as Naruto and they never retrieved information like Naruto's clones did.

Reaper Death Seal took its toll on Minato due to him already being severely depleted and the fact that it consumes his actual life energy to use it.