Adult Sasuke VS Hashirama
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TheSages456
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Quite some leaps in logic here.
These
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There isn't any reason that the entire Chidori sword would have to be pitch black. You can't give any evidence for why this would be the case and there were tiny irrelevant amounts of white even in his Yin Seal powered Chidori. It doesn't mean anything.
What makes you think that the body of a Ten Tails jinchuriki negates ninjutsu when Enton Rasenshuriken left Obito's body smoking? This ability is imbued into their Truthseekers.
Sasuke using a white Chidori means that it contains none of Hagoromo's power, because it was already shown to the readers that a Chidori imbued with Hagoromo's power is black. It's that simple.
The bold doesn't even logically follow. Sasuke used Chidori against Kaguya even though it was already stated that she can absorb any technique, which is the reason that Naruto used no jutsu against her.
And the bold is stated where? I'm pretty sure that the manga didn't say that there is literally no possible way to perceive natural energy outside of possessing senjutsu yourself.
KidGamer65
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Ok? Doesn't change anything that has been said about Kaguya, or them attacking Madara. Chidori Eiso is Chidori manipulated into a blade. If Chidori is black then Chidori Eiso would be black too.
:lol. Even before Sasuke learned she could absorb any jutsu, he attacked her with Susanoo, which he wouldn't have done if he didn't have the capability to hurt someone who can negate Ninjutsu. Meaning he has Hagoromo's chakra.
The fact that the Manga stated it. Enton Rasenshuriken left a small portion of Obito's body smoking while a far inferior attack did far more damage. When Rasengan hit his body and started to dig in and draw blood, Sasuke was like "How?!" "It Worked?!". If the Jins body didn't either negate or nullify the effectiveness of Ninjutsu there would be no reason for him to be surprised.
The scan has been provided. Sasuke being able to perceive Nature Energy means that he has it, meaning he has Senjutsu. And don't argue that you don't need Senjutsu, because BM Naruto sensed nothing from the Juubi despite being a sensor type, but when he entered Sage Mode (Senjutsu) he was able to sense it's power.
Sasuke shits on him with Ameno>Chidori. Without SM, Hashirama has no chance to mentally react. And then there's Oro's statement which says Sasuke would surpass Madara at his prime. That would also assume Sasuke is EMS, because with the Rinnegan he surpasses Madara by a long run. Sasuke counters anything Hashirama tries, and I'm pretty sure clones with the Rinnegan and EMS are much more effective than clones using Mokuton seeing how they have independent Deva intervals. Don't see CT being a necessity here, seems overkill. Enton arrow accelerated by Shinra Tensei gege
Eng nawashi
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So ? The rikudo chakra enhanced chidori wasnt completely black either :lol
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Compare urself
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TheSages456
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And Chidori Eiso was black, so what is your point here?
As shown with Obito, you don't need senjutsu to do damage to their actual body.
What? If Obito left the Enton on his body and didn't negate it with his Truthseekers, he would've been damaged to a much greater extent than what Naruto's Rasengan did.
tobi: it seems that sage techniques attacks work…!!\\
tobi: the sage technique attack of the frog from the myouboku mountain…\\
tobi: wasn’t erased\\
mina: we cannot be touched by those black spheres made of transformed chakra… and even if we hit him, our attacks don’t work…\\ he is fast both in attack and defence…\\
Every single mention of ninjutsu being ineffective or senjutsu being effective is in reference to the Truthseekers of the jinchuriki.
That's not what the scan says.
Fukasaku stated that since Naruto can't sense natural energy flowing, he cannot take it in. Nothing more, nothing less.
Training in the art of senjutsu allows you to feel the flow of natural energy. It's not really equivalent to sensing a body of natural energy that isn't flowing, like the Juubi.
Eng nawashi
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Compare what ? :lol The chidori made by rikudo chakra wasnt completely black either only the chidori outlines and sparks
You compare yourself .
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Hagoromo Reanimation
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Hold up all of a sudden movies are credible to you now?
When the argument of Sasuke being able to turn off his Rinnengan was brought up you were against this movie being canon notion?
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Even the Guidebook Kishimoto worked on you went against?
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KidGamer65
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No, it was outlined black.
Obito took a far stronger attack with minuscule damage, and took a far weaker one with more damage.
Irrelevant. FRS is a Rasengan+Wind. Enton RS is a Rasengan+Enton. It should've done more damage to Obito on impact than a Rasengan alone.
If you decide to ignore a direct scan where Obito gets hit with Rasengan, only for Sasuke to wonder why it worked then yes, you would come to the conclusion that Ninjutsu and Senjutsu work against the Juubi's Jin equally. But if you don't ignore that scan then you realize Sasuke was only surprised that the Rasengan damaged his body because normal Ninjutsu doesn't work. If normal Ninjutsu worked there'd be no reason for him to be surprised.
Tobirama's statement obviously refers to Obito's body because they struck his body when Tobirama made that assessment. Not even sure how you think what you are saying makes sense. The Gudo Dama negate Ninjutsu because of the Jin, so if Senjutsu can hurt them, then logically they'd hurt the Jin too.
-Naruto and Tobirama see that Senjutsu can't be erased by the Gudo Dama.
-Naruto enters Sage Mode and hits Obito in the back with Rasengan.
-Close up panel showing it drilling into Obito's back.
-Sasuke is surprised that a Rasengan to the body could hurt him, and asks how.
-Tobirama says that even though Ninjutsu doesn't work (on the body as the body is what they struck) Senjutsu does.
And Minato stated that only physical damage or Senjutsu will work against JJ Madara. [
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] Yet he later tells Gai to evade the Gudo Dama and not to hit them, meaning "physical damage and Senjutsu" was obviously referring to Madara's body. Fukasaku stated that since Naruto can't sense the ebb and flow of mother nature, he can't take in nature energy. Meaning he can't sense it at all. You are clearly grasping at straws here. Even then, why would the energy inside the Juubi not be flowing when chakra inside human bodies has it's own flow? :lol Even then, Naruto by the time the war had passed has already trained in Senjutsu, yet he can't sense the Juubi's energy, which is Nature Energy. He needed to use Sage Mode to sense it. So why would Sasuke w/o Senjutsu be able to sense Naruto's accumulated Nature Energy AFTER he's received it from Kurama?
KidGamer65
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That portion of the movie contradicts canon, so obviously I'm not going to take it into account. The movie has always been canon and I have always said that it was canon. One thing being wrong doesn't negate the legitimacy of the entire movie, and Kishimoto's guidebook is irrelevant. I can easily get other scans of Sasuke's Rinnegan being active while his Sharingan wasn't.
Eng nawashi
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There is no proof that sasuke has felt pure nature energy .his statement comes after the chakra had already entered naruto's avatar body which by then it was senjutsu not pure nature energy .minato has sensed madara's rikudo chakra without being in sage mode .
TheSages456
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And, I'm grasping at straws? :lol
If the Chidori Eiso wasn't black, then neither was Sasuke's Chidori.
No, the Chidori Eiso was black, thus enhanced by Hagoromo's Six Paths Sage chakra. This isn't debatable.
Because the stronger one was negated by Truthseekers due to it not being senjutsu.
Enton Frs is just a bigger Enton. No, it does not do more grinding damage than Rasengan.
Nobody is ignoring anything. It was concluded that ninjutsu is ineffective against a Ten Tails Jinchuriki because when it was tested, the Truthseekers came to Obito's aid and negated it anyway even after it hit.
He said this because "ninjutsu damage" gets negated by Truthseekers.
You don't get it. "Naruto can't sense the flow of natural energy, so he can't take it in."
"Taking it in" refers to Sage Mode. Sensing the flow of natural energy is independent of taking it in your body.
You have to be able to sense the flow of natural energy before you can take it in(Sage Mode). It's a prerequisite.
Why are you bringing up the fact that human chakra has its own flow when the Ten Tails isn't a human? The Ten Tails does possess it's own chakra outside of the natural energy that it possesses.
Anyone trained in the art of senjutsu can sense flowing natural energy in their base form.
As for the bold, you're misinterpreting it. Sasuke knew that Naruto gained the natural energy because he felt it build up and go to him.
Tantalus Thief
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I think he is referring to when Minato sensed that JJ Madara had more Sage power than Obito.
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OP: Adult Sasuke wins
KidGamer65
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Except it was shown to be black. Except every other Chidori he used against JJ Madara was shown to be white with no black outline so you holding onto this point doesn't change a thing.
Yes, seconds after he had been hit.
Enton RS is an Enton with
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in the middle. :lol When the Rasengan explodes, the flame spreads.Except you are. After they hit Obito with Enton RS and failed:
-Naruto hits Obito's body with Rasengan.
-Sasuke wonders why it did any meaningful damage.
-Meaning Ninjutsu doesn't work on his body.
If Ninjutsu worked on his body and that was the conclusion they reached, why would Sasuke and Minato be surprised that a Rasengan hurt Obito?
Then why would he say that physical damage works on him in the same breath he said Senjutsu would work even though he told Gai, who only uses physical attacks, to avoid hitting the Gudo Dama? Which would mean that physical damage from Taijutsu doesn't really work. What you are saying doesn't make sense.
The context makes it clear that he's referring to Madara's body, because out of Madara's body and the Gudo Dama, the only thing that physical damage from Taijutsu would actually work on is the former and not the latter.
Ok, fine. However...
The Juubi not being a human is irrelevant as it still has chakra and manipulates chakra just like any human would.
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-Kurama gathers it.
-Clone is cancelled.
-Then the energy reaches Naruto's body. (Naruto says "Got it!")
-Only then does Sasuke say that he can feel it.
He didn't sense the build up, he only sensed it once it hit Naruto's body.
KidGamer65
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If it was Senjutsu then he would've said Senjutsu or chakra, not Nature Energy.
Eng nawashi
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He didnt say "I can feel so much nature energy ".he said "i can feel it ".him using "nature energy " in his next statement doesnt prove that he felt nature energy .if naruto's senjutsu chakra has suddenly increased ,it isnt hard to deduce that he gained extra nature energy .
As you said in your post above ,sasuke only felt it when it entered the avatar body which by then it wasn't pure nature energy anymore .sasuke wondering how naruto has gained this amout of nature energy so suddenly means that to sasuke the chakra spawned in naruto's avatar body .he didnt feel it travelling to naruto
KidGamer65
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Uh, no.
When it comes to feel there is no reason Senjutsu chakra would feel any different than normal chakra. If he said "how did he gain so much Nature Energy" then obviously the massive amount of power he is feeling is Nature Energy. If he was only feeling chakra he would've just said "how did he gain all this chakra".