[VS] Haku (Forbidden Technique) vs Zabuza (EZQ)
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Unorthodox
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Ambivalence
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Yet there are a lot of people saying Haku wins. It wouldn't surprise me if i end up losing this debate. I'm just curious about what's the tactic for Haku.
Would you judge Ice? Lol at unorthodox judging this. He won't read and he'll say Zabuza wins, he hates haku just because he hurt Sasuke.
Tantalus Thief
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Lmao there was an actual Haku vs Deidara thread. good luck to both. This matchup was something I wondered about some times.
Forbidden Technique
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First, I'm going to address your crucial misconceptions.
1) Haku can in fact fight within the mist. According to Zabuza, he
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. Given the fact that Zabuza is most renown for his skill in silent killing, it should be quite obvious that he taught Haku this said skill as well. This should be even more overly obvious seeing as Haku was able to perceive what was occurring in the mist [
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], and instantly located Zabuzas location [
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]. Not only that, but Haku is able to attack an opponent in perfect unison with Zabuza within the thick blinding mist as well [
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], which should speak volumes for Haku's silent killing expertise. Lastly, Zabuza even said that he had Haku examine every aspect of his first fight with team Kakashi [
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] - every aspect would imply, even when the mist was up. Therefore, Zabuza gains no advantage over Haku with the Hidden Mist Jutsu, a technique he so much relies on. Not like it even matters though, as Haku's Ice Mirrors are a million times faster then Zabuzas Hidden Mist. 2) Haku was never going all out against Sasuke or had killing intent. Ever. But I don't really feel like dwelling very much into that. The only thing I will say, is that the major drawback behind Haku's Ice Mirrors, is that it is very chakra taxing, and the speed of which Haku can travel between them very quickly declines. At first, Sasuke could not see or track anything to even begin to figure out how the jutsu works [
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]-[
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]. And Haku was moving so fast that it was like time stayed still (I will get into that further down into my post). However, after maintaining the jutsu for so long, Haku's speed was declining as explained
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. Now, onto why Zabuza loses within a few seconds to a blood lusted Haku.
From the moment the fight commences, Haku will immediately spawn Ice Mirrors around Zabuza. As explained directly above in the DB, the Ice Mirrors can be created around the enemy in an instant. This was also backed up in the manga as well:Databook I said:
Red box is Kakashi charging towards Zabuza in the blue box; note the short amount of distance between the two.
During this short window of time, Haku was able to perceive Zabuza's urgent need [
Haku even did it again, against a much faster version of Kakashi [
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During this short window of time, Haku was able to perceive Zabuza's urgent need [
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]-[
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] and instantly spawn the Ice Mirrors before Kakashi could even take a step
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Haku even did it again, against a much faster version of Kakashi [
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]. Thus, I'll conclude that Ice Mirrors can be created and spawn in an instant, as stated in the databook and shown in the manga.Second order of operation is understanding how fast Haku travels between the mirrors. The DB hypes it up to be "literal light speed movement", the manga makes it clear that it is in fact ridiculously fast at it's peak speed.
Here we have Haku moving between mirrors as if time for everything else has stopped. In the blue boxes, Haku makes a whole bunch of instant movements while Naruto and his bunshins aren't moving at all. They all dispersed at the very same time, because Haku hit them all individually within an instant. In the red box, the water didn't even slightly move from it's position either until Haku ended his transportation. Try to comprehend how fast this is.
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So Haku creates and spawns Ice Mirrors within an instant around Zabuza, and transports to them nigh instantly as well. Being blood lusted, and instantly opting to do this from the start, Haku doesn't waist anytime or chakra. Starting fresh, Haku will be moving at peak top speed, which equates to GG for Zabuza. Stating that Zabuza can properly react and defend this is simply not manga or databook supported.
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The entire execution of Haku's Ice Mirrors was faster then even War-Arc 3T Kakashi's blitz, something that Zabuza couldn't even turn around and properly react to. Haku trumped the very same Kakashi that Zabuza couldn't even handle from a fair frontal square off [
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]. Thus, Haku spawns the mirrors directly behind Zabuza from match start, very similar to this scenario, transports, and then knocks him out by hitting his acupuncture points.
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This is precisely why Zabuza canonically admitted inferiority due to this technique.
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Last edited:
Forbidden Technique
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I think he could of reached around Minato level, tbh. Has practically the same skillset.
Nice post. Tho it’s a little longer than I expected, it’s still a short one. It’s a lot better to debate without walls.
L’right.
-Being able to fight in the mist =/= being an expert in silent killing and be able to hide in the mist from a sharingan user and strike silently enough to ambush a whole 4 shinobi team (tho Sasuke, Naruto and Sakura were still kids).
It’s pretty clear that being able to fight in the mist is not the same as being able to hide proficiently on it, and use the silent killing.
If Haku knew how to fight in the mist like Zabuza, he wouldn’t have gotten spotted by Gai and Rock Lee (which none has any kind of sensing abilitiy)
About the second bold:
-The mist had already started to clear
-Kakashi and Zabuza were speaking and making noise, and chidori makes a lot of noice as well (as it was stated in the CE, it’s called like that because it sounds like birds)
-Haku being able to find them in the mist doesn’t mean that he can find Zabuza is the latter is hiding and using silent killing
About the third bold, Haku started to examine the fight when the ninjutsu clash started and Kakashi started copying Zabuza’s ninjutsu. By that time, Zabuza was not hiding in the mist thus he was there to be seen.
I sense a big mistake on your argument. You seem to think that Zabuza’s mist automatically hides him, and Haku’s few feats of being able to see in the mist would let him find Zabuza and react to his attacks, while it seems you forget the fact that the mist is not even that thick since from a short distance almost everything was visible in the fight. ZABUZA IS THE EXPERT AT HIDING ON IT.
So no, Haku’s feats inside the mist are not more special than Kakashi’s, who still got his ass handed to him on Zabuza’s ambush.
Also you seem to have ignored the speed difference I noted. If Zabuza strikes Haku in the mist, there’s absolutely no way Haku dodges. His only way to survive is the ice mirrors. Since he can’t physically react to Zabuza’s speed.
This is the speed of the ice prison getting up
Sasuke reacted to it mentally (!) as soon as the water started to raise. He didn’t get out of there because:
-He didn’t have knowledge
-He probably didn’t have enough reactions and foot speed. But now:
Zabuza’s foot speed >>>> Sasuke’s, and Zabuza’s reaction speed >>> Sharinganless Sasuke, plus he has knowledge on this jutsu.
So the water raises and Zabuza, with knowledge, gets out of there.
The watter droplets example means nothing since shinobis in general move at insane speed.
You trying to make it sound like Zabuza didn’t have time to react is silly. Zabuza was fighting on a crowded battlefield and never noticed Kakashi. That’s like saying Minato can’t react to Muu if Muu goes invisible and stabs him in the face.
I hope you are not incinuating Haku would succed against Kakashi on a frontal strike where he’s not ambushed by haku, and he actually faces him.
Sai literally reacted to the same scenario you’re suggesting. And in this battle:
-Zabuza has knowledge, so if he sees the hand seals, he’s not being taken out with his guard down
-Zabuza is faster than Sai, who reacted to this.
*Haku starts with the mirros, and tries to surround Zabuza with them (or just uses one of them).
*Zabuza knows the hand seal, he knows what’s happening. If Haku seems to be surrounding him with the mirrors, as Sasuke did Zabuza notices the water raising (plus the previous knowledge on the hand seals) and sunshins out of there.
*If Haku just uses one mirror on Zabuza’s back, as Sai did Zabuza notices the cold air and reacts to the attack blocking the needles with his sword or simply dodging.
*Haku’s striking speed is so low that Sasuke was able to react to Haku, who was aiming for critical spots. Let me put this scan here again
*There’s nothing that proves that Haku’s speed decreased. So Sasuke was reacting to Haku’s top speed without sharingan.
*Databook supports this by giving Haku a 1 in taijutsu, hence why his attacks are so slow, and despite aiming for critical areas sharinganless sasuke dodged it.
So the fight starts with Haku using the ice trying to attack Zabuza. Zabua totally reacts to this.
Once Zabuza puts up the mist (which only requires one hand seal), Haku is done. As I proved in my first pharagraph, Haku’s skills in the mist are not special. While Kakashi Who has a sharingan could not react to Zabuza’s ambush properly. Do you really think that Haku’s punny feats put him in a place where we can say he can react to Zabuza’s silent Attacks?
L’right.
I disagree with this. Why? The first bold is pure speculation. There’s a crucial misconception:
-Being able to fight in the mist =/= being an expert in silent killing and be able to hide in the mist from a sharingan user and strike silently enough to ambush a whole 4 shinobi team (tho Sasuke, Naruto and Sakura were still kids).
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If Haku knew how to fight in the mist like Zabuza, he wouldn’t have gotten spotted by Gai and Rock Lee (which none has any kind of sensing abilitiy)
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-The mist had already started to clear
-Kakashi and Zabuza were speaking and making noise, and chidori makes a lot of noice as well (as it was stated in the CE, it’s called like that because it sounds like birds)
-Haku being able to find them in the mist doesn’t mean that he can find Zabuza is the latter is hiding and using silent killing
About the third bold, Haku started to examine the fight when the ninjutsu clash started and Kakashi started copying Zabuza’s ninjutsu. By that time, Zabuza was not hiding in the mist thus he was there to be seen.
I sense a big mistake on your argument. You seem to think that Zabuza’s mist automatically hides him, and Haku’s few feats of being able to see in the mist would let him find Zabuza and react to his attacks, while it seems you forget the fact that the mist is not even that thick since from a short distance almost everything was visible in the fight. ZABUZA IS THE EXPERT AT HIDING ON IT.
So no, Haku’s feats inside the mist are not more special than Kakashi’s, who still got his ass handed to him on Zabuza’s ambush.
Also you seem to have ignored the speed difference I noted. If Zabuza strikes Haku in the mist, there’s absolutely no way Haku dodges. His only way to survive is the ice mirrors. Since he can’t physically react to Zabuza’s speed.
Haku himself stated that he was aiming for critical areas, and Sasuke was dodging. (Refer to the last scan of my first post). Killing intent or not, he was aiming for critical areas, and kid sasuke BEFORE GAINING 2 tomoe was able to react and dodge, and when he had already gained 2 tomoe, he was able to INTERCEPT HIM (to save naruto)
That’s not Haku’s speed declining, is Sasuke getting used to it.
That scans only proves my point right. Haku’s speed didn’t decline. He said I can’t keep THIS SPEED for a long time gap. His speed was still the same. Sasuke was the one getting used to it.
So, were going to take the DB exaggerations literally now? Lol. The ices spawn fast yes.
Okay so you proved how Haku can pull out ONE mirror with that speed.
This is the speed of the ice prison getting up
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-He didn’t have knowledge
-He probably didn’t have enough reactions and foot speed. But now:
Zabuza’s foot speed >>>> Sasuke’s, and Zabuza’s reaction speed >>> Sharinganless Sasuke, plus he has knowledge on this jutsu.
So the water raises and Zabuza, with knowledge, gets out of there.
Still, that shows the speed of one mirror spawning. There’s literally nothing that indicates that Haku can literally surround Zabuza with those mirrors with that speed, when Sasuke noticed that something was happening when the water was raising. Zabuza, who has knowledge, would sunshin out of that area.
Really fast in the eyes of two gennin. That same crazy fast speed was lectured by Sasuke with two tomoe.
The watter droplets example means nothing since shinobis in general move at insane speed.
Adressed. As fast as it sounds, Sasuke reacted to it. You can keep posting databook references about this, but the fact is that Sasuke was able to dodge the attacks, and after gaining chakra he could clearly see Haku moving, and he could intercept him. Let’s not talk about Zabuza here who doesn’t even get caught inside the prison, and if he gets caught, he reacts to this many blows haku does as Sasuke did, and he can also use clones and thicken the mist to get out of there.
-Zabuza sees the water raising like Sasuke did, and changes location with a fast sunshin. Then proceeds to put up the mist and hides from Haku.
The speed Haku uses to move from one mirror to another is not enough to land critical hits on Sasuke. So that “nigh instantly” gets reduced to “fast”.
Unless you prove Haku’s speed actually decreased from the time Sasuke was not used to it to the time Sasuke started to react to Haku, this point is moot. Haku says clearly he can’t keep up THAT SAME SPEED so no. Haku’s peak top speed was reacted to by Sasuke without sharingan, as soon as he started to get used to it.
Naw.
Silly example. Haku reacted because he knew Kakashi was attacking, while Zabuza was facing around fighting other people. Not because he was too slow. In fact he didn’t even notice Kakashi was there until Haku was done.
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Don’t know if you are serious with this one. Haku intercepted a Kakashi who was focused on hitting Zabuza with raikiri. Not the same example of Zabuza going on a frontal strike against Kakashi.
I hope you are not incinuating Haku would succed against Kakashi on a frontal strike where he’s not ambushed by haku, and he actually faces him.
Lol, Haku’s striking speed is lame. This same scenario you’re suggesting happened here
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-Zabuza has knowledge, so if he sees the hand seals, he’s not being taken out with his guard down
-Zabuza is faster than Sai, who reacted to this.
This is how the battle goes.
*Haku starts with the mirros, and tries to surround Zabuza with them (or just uses one of them).
*Zabuza knows the hand seal, he knows what’s happening. If Haku seems to be surrounding him with the mirrors, as Sasuke did Zabuza notices the water raising (plus the previous knowledge on the hand seals) and sunshins out of there.
*If Haku just uses one mirror on Zabuza’s back, as Sai did Zabuza notices the cold air and reacts to the attack blocking the needles with his sword or simply dodging.
*Haku’s striking speed is so low that Sasuke was able to react to Haku, who was aiming for critical spots. Let me put this scan here again
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*Databook supports this by giving Haku a 1 in taijutsu, hence why his attacks are so slow, and despite aiming for critical areas sharinganless sasuke dodged it.
So the fight starts with Haku using the ice trying to attack Zabuza. Zabua totally reacts to this.
Once Zabuza puts up the mist (which only requires one hand seal), Haku is done. As I proved in my first pharagraph, Haku’s skills in the mist are not special. While Kakashi Who has a sharingan could not react to Zabuza’s ambush properly. Do you really think that Haku’s punny feats put him in a place where we can say he can react to Zabuza’s silent Attacks?
Haku is a girl
jk
Nice debate. Waiting to read your 2nd post and then this shall be judged
