For some reason, I couldn't reply with a quote earlier. Anyways...
I don't see anything in that scan that suggests PS took 12 TBB. PS was the one firing the 12 TBB, and we can see that the explosions from the TBB don't even touch PS.
EE being more focused most definitely means something considering Choujou Kebutsu's makes contact on an area half the size of the kyuubi:
we can see how large the area where the punches hit the kyuubi is here
You must be registered for see images
and how large that area is based on how much of PS was removed here:
You must be registered for see images
Half the kyuubi's surface area is hundreds of times greater than the area that a human-sized object like Gai will be hitting the susanoo gem.
Therefore I don't see how anyone who isn't willing to claim that Chojou Kebutsu = hundreds of SM enhanced TBBs can also claim that PS's gem won't get breached by Gai.
The difference in power between Chojo Kebutsu+12 BD barrage and Evening Elephant is far greater than the difference in size between Gai's fist and half of Kurama's body. Both attacks clashed and made a giant explosion, Madara was in that explosion so he took that damage whether he fired at himself or not.
So Gai's never getting through PS. He'll strike and strike and strike only to do minimal damage at best (and the step that actually smashed the Gudo Dama was stronger than the rest allegedly. So he'll have to hit 5 times to reach that level of power.
And EE didn't do far more damage than BD and CS Susanoo Arrow did tbh.
1. Obito's shield was larger than Madara's, a lot larger. Larger than Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars combined. So even if you want to claim that Madara's Gudo Dama are more durable, are they that more durable?
2. Both attacks put a hole in the Gudo Dama, but Gai's sent Madara flying through said hole and sliding on the ground, so we know it's a tier stronger than what was shown. Focus the power of Bijuu Dama into the same area as Gai's fist and it'd plow through the Gudo Dama and hit the person inside without losing any momentum.
I don't see anything in that scan that suggests PS took 12 TBB. PS was the one firing the 12 TBB, and we can see that the explosions from the TBB don't even touch PS.
Lol, no. PS was most definitely taking damage from both the TBB and Shinsuusenju's barage, unless you're saying a single TBB, let alone twelve don't span the
EE being more focused most definitely means something considering Choujou Kebutsu's makes contact on an area half the size of the kyuubi:
we can see how large the area where the punches hit the kyuubi is here
Which, again, doesn't matter. When you can prove that the attack being focused closes the massive gap in power between it and the 12 TBB + Choujo Kebutsu just because it's focused, then you'd have a point.
Therefore I don't see how anyone who isn't willing to claim that Chojou Kebutsu = hundreds of SM enhanced TBBs can also claim that PS's gem won't get breached by Gai.
You're basing your whole argument on the assumption the crystal somehow differs from the rest of PS in durability, or that it's affected by focused or not attacks when it was already shown what it took for Madara to be left vulnerable. The damage PS took during that final clash would have obliterated Madara if PS had something like durability per unit. Instead, PS was removed, with Madara unharmed. The 5th step, at the very most, will do more damage to PS than a single 100% Kurama TBB. How do I know? Obito's TSB were shattered by a 50% TBB and a V3 Arrow. Even if we assume Madara's TSB are stronger (even though that doesn't make sense since the TSB spawn by default when Rikudou Senjutsu is obtained), that TBB and arrow are still not nearly as powerful as
You must be registered for see links
. Since the difference in power between Obito and Madara's TSB (which there is no difference, imo) is nowhere as big as between a TBB from Half and Full Kurama, that means it'd tank at most a single BSM TBB from Full Kurama. Equating EE's damage to that (and that's the last step's power, not all), it's ridiculous to think it has a chance of breaking PS's crystal. Also, Choujo Kebutsu's fists were clearly all smashing Kurama's front, where Madara is. Then there's the fact it took a direct hit from the 5th step to shatter the TSB, a defense that is vastly inferior to PS. Even if I were to lowball it, it'd take multiple 5th step hits to get through to Madara, which is never happening.
So Gai also needs to land multiple 5th step punches if he wants to increase the power and have any chance of breaking PS. The first shot fails. The second and following strikes are already blocked/guarded by PS's palms. Eventually, Gai is reduced to
Lol, no. PS was most definitely taking damage from both the TBB and Shinsuusenju's barage, unless you're saying a single TBB, let alone twelve don't span the
If the TBB is fired from Kurama, especially at a close distance, kurama won't be caught in its explosion as the ball has so much momentum behind it that the explosion goes outward like it did here:
You must be registered for see images
and when KN4 fired it and when bee fired his laser.
The manga shows the explosions in that battle and none of the TBB explosions touch PS, they happen behind the buddah and explode away from the kyuubi:
Which, again, doesn't matter. When you can prove that the attack being focused closes the massive gap in power between it and the 12 TBB + Choujo Kebutsu just because it's focused, then you'd have a point.
Why does the burden of proof only lie on me? If you're claiming that PS tanks it, then you have to prove the opposite: that having the power of the attack spread out on an enormously larger area is enough for PS to tank EE.
And again, considering the impact of EE is on the level of a human and the impact of Choujou Kebutsu is on the level of half the kyuubi, EE can be a hundred times weaker and Gai still breaks through PS.
You're basing your whole argument on the assumption the crystal somehow differs from the rest of PS in durability, or that it's affected by focused or not attacks when it was already shown what it took for Madara to be left vulnerable. The damage PS took during that final clash would have obliterated Madara if PS had something like durability per unit. Instead, PS was removed, with Madara unharmed.
Why would madara have been obliterated if PS had durability per unit? Susanoo has been proven time and time again to function by durability per unit which is why danzou can blow a hole in Sasuke's susanoo without destroying the whole thing, why Raikage can break portions of Madara's, why part of Sasuke's PS can be erasd by his clash with Naruto, and why the portion of PS that was hit by chojou was erased while the portion that wasn't hit was in tact.
The 5th step, at the very most, will do more damage to PS than a single 100% Kurama TBB. How do I know? Obito's TSB were shattered by a 50% TBB and a V3 Arrow. Even if we assume Madara's TSB are stronger (even though that doesn't make sense since the TSB spawn by default when Rikudou Senjutsu is obtained), that TBB and arrow are still not nearly as powerful as
Unless you are arguing that TSB are not generated by the rikuou senjutsu, then a stronger rikudou senjutsu logically leads to a stronger TSB.
There is no such thing as '50% TBB'. NAruto using 50% of kurama's power has made TBBs that are far larger than any of the ones fired at VoTe. The TBB that obito's shield was hit was enhanced by sennin mode which more than doubles the power of rasengans and by extension bijuudamas since bijuudamas are rasengans using different chakras.
Since the difference in power between Obito and Madara's TSB (which there is no difference, imo) is nowhere as big as between a TBB from Half and Full Kurama, that means it'd tank at most a single BSM TBB from Full Kurama. Equating EE's damage to that (and that's the last step's power, not all), it's ridiculous to think it has a chance of breaking PS's crystal. Also, Choujo Kebutsu's fists were clearly all smashing Kurama's front, where Madara is. Then there's the fact it took a direct hit from the 5th step to shatter the TSB, a defense that is vastly inferior to PS. Even if I were to lowball it, it'd take multiple 5th step hits to get through to Madara, which is never happening.
So Gai also needs to land multiple 5th step punches if he wants to increase the power and have any chance of breaking PS. The first shot fails. The second and following strikes are already blocked/guarded by PS's palms. Eventually, Gai is reduced to
Why do you assume that only the 5th step is capable of breaking the TSB? None of his punches were even implied to be significantly stronger than the other which is why they all look the same when he fires them at madara.
PS isn't fast enough to block Gai's attacks if Juubidara can barely react to them.
@ Ambivalent
If the TBB is fired from Kurama, especially at a close distance, kurama won't be caught in its explosion as the ball has so much momentum behind it that the explosion goes outward like it did here:
You must be registered for see images
and when KN4 fired it and when bee fired his laser.
The manga shows the explosions in that battle and none of the TBB explosions touch PS, they happen behind the buddah and explode away from the kyuubi:
You must be registered for see images
Why does the burden of proof only lie on me? If you're claiming that PS tanks it, then you have to prove the opposite: that having the power of the attack spread out on an enormously larger area is enough for PS to tank EE.
And again, considering the impact of EE is on the level of a human and the impact of Choujou Kebutsu is on the level of half the kyuubi, EE can be a hundred times weaker and Gai still breaks through PS.
Why would madara have been obliterated if PS had durability per unit? Susanoo has been proven time and time again to function by durability per unit which is why danzou can blow a hole in Sasuke's susanoo without destroying the whole thing, why Raikage can break portions of Madara's, why part of Sasuke's PS can be erasd by his clash with Naruto, and why the portion of PS that was hit by chojou was erased while the portion that wasn't hit was in tact.
Unless you are arguing that TSB are not generated by the rikuou senjutsu, then a stronger rikudou senjutsu logically leads to a stronger TSB.
There is no such thing as '50% TBB'. NAruto using 50% of kurama's power has made TBBs that are far larger than any of the ones fired at VoTe. The TBB that obito's shield was hit was enhanced by sennin mode which more than doubles the power of rasengans and by extension bijuudamas since bijuudamas are rasengans using different chakras.
Why do you assume that only the 5th step is capable of breaking the TSB? None of his punches were even implied to be significantly stronger than the other which is why they all look the same when he fires them at madara.
PS isn't fast enough to block Gai's attacks if Juubidara can barely react to them.
@ Ambivalent
NB isn't letting me post long posts because I'm a new member. I'll send you a PM, but for the thread purpose, the real difference here is our belief on how susanoo take damage.
You believe that in order to get to Madara, Gai would have to completely destroy PS while I believe differently and that he'd only have to get through what's protecting madara in order to damage madara.
There are tons of examples to support my argument in the manga such as Danzou blowing a hole and exposing sasuke in his susanoo, the fact that chojou only erases the portion of PS that it punched while the remaining portion is still protecting the kyuubi after the attack, the fact that Ei has damage portions of Madara's susanoof while not destroying the entire thing, the fact that Sasuke's susanoo takes portion damage from his clash with naruto at VoTe.
Then there's the paragraph in my earlier post about BSM NAruto getting wrecked by an attack far weaker than the juubi's laser that BM Naruto blocked with tails.
Sure if you are right and Gai has to completely destroy PS in order to get to madara, then I agree Madara would win, but I don't see that as true, he has the speed to easily dodge PS and the offensive ability to get to madara due to how potent and focused his attacks are.
Since I'm a new member, I apparently can't make long posts without a mod's permission....
@ Ambivalence
The main difference between our arguments is that you think Gai would have to completely destroy PS in order to get to madara. Is that true?
@ Kidgamer
If you can agree with me that choujou kebutsu ~= 12 TBBs, how is the difference between Gai's fist and half of kurama's body not greater than the difference between a SM TBB and 24 TBBs? Kurama's body is at least a hundred meters long, Gai's fist is like 1/10th of a meter. Even a massive lowball would yield a difference by a factor of at least 1,000. Is a SM TBB really more than a thousand times weaker than 24 TBBs from 100% Kurama?
Wow, this is sad, can't post anything long because I'm a new member.
Guys EE air canons are useless to PS, but if he hits the diamond part directly with his fists, he will break it, madaras only chance is to use izanagi and hope the time is enough for guy to be weakened, if not, madara dies
Gai should win. The area that EE hits compared to PS is smaller than a needle compared to a person, and just like a needle doesn't have to destroy a person's entire body in order to kill them, Gai's punches don't have to destroy the entire PS in order to kill Madara. All he has to do is
You must be registered for see links
EE should have way more than enough power to do so considering it blows through the black juubi shield, and should be on a totally different level of power than attacks like AT which have enough power behind them to destroy Madara's normal susanoos.
