How this perfect jinchuuriki was controlled

[Jokule67]

It was never states that Yagura was actually a perfect juubi jinchuriki.

The jon can do the same for them also. And I doubt genjutsu even works like that.

 

[Imperious]

First of all, Yagura was not controlled by a 3-tomoe, he was controlled by Obito's MS. Your scan is from before Obito was revealed which is back when Kishi purposely never showed his MS in order to preserve the secret, but he still had it. There is at least one instance where Obito uses his phasing ability without his MS active, and that was to preserve his secret identity. So stating Obito controlled Yagura with 3 tomoe is not true because Kishi was known to hide it and Obito clearly had access to it.

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This image just about solos your claims be it Kishi's attempt to hide Obito's MS or not, if this is what took place in manga then this is fact. And what this is, is Obito controlling Yagura without having MS activated. Stop making excuses to bypass the truth in front of your face.

It was never states that Yagura was actually a perfect juubi jinchuriki.

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And this scan solos your claims. One might reply that it could just be Danzo's "false speculation" on the subject, and that at the end of the day he could never know for sure whether Yagura was a perfect jin or not, but I like to think of it as Kishi's little way of adding a fact about yagura in to dialogue.

I have an easier explanation. Remember at the start of Shippuden when Sasuke entered Naruto's inner world? Well, Obito could have done that and put Isobu in a Genjutsu. Perfect Jin's are only "immune" to genjutsu because the Bijuu can break it for them.

This is up for speculation, but sounds like a reasonable theory.

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This image just about solos your claims be it Kishi's attempt to hide Obito's MS or not, if this is what took place in manga then this is fact. And what this is, is Obito controlling Yagura without having MS activated. Stop making excuses to bypass the truth in front of your face.

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And this scan solos your claims. One might reply that it could just be Danzo's "false speculation" on the subject, and that at the end of the day he could never know for sure whether Yagura was a perfect jin or not, but I like to think of it as Kishi's little way of adding a fact about yagura in to dialogue

I have an easier explanation. Remember at the start of Shippuden when Sasuke entered Naruto's inner world? Well, Obito could have done that and put Isobu in a Genjutsu. Perfect Jin's are only "immune" to genjutsu because the Bijuu can break it for them.

This is up for speculation, but sounds like a reasonable theory.

 

[LightSo6p]

The tailed beast got to be willing to snap the person out of it because he had control dont mean that him and the tail beast was friends

 

[SatanicGod]

Possibly.

It's also possible that Yagura simply WASN'T a perfect Jin, as Danzo said he might have been, and Yagura was never mentioned by Bee at the Falls of Truth where all Perfect Jins train.

But Yagura might be older than Bee

The scan showed 3 tomoe not MS, even then MS can't control a perfect jinchuuriki.

Viz translation confimred 100% that he was.

Spoiler

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Also not being a perfect jinchuuri=/=Being a kage if you think about it. That just spells disaster.

There are lots of times where Kishi drew 3T instead of MS while Obito uses MS techniques. It was simply to hide his identity from the readers

 

[VongolaX]

There are lots of times where Kishi drew 3T instead of MS while Obito uses MS techniques. It was simply to hide his identity from the readers

Agreed. But 3 tomoe or MS. A perfect jinchuuriki can break out of it like Bee did. Correct?

First of all, Yagura was not controlled by a 3-tomoe, he was controlled by Obito's MS. Your scan is from before Obito was revealed which is back when Kishi purposely never showed his MS in order to preserve the secret, but he still had it. There is at least one instance where Obito uses his phasing ability without his MS active, and that was to preserve his secret identity. So stating Obito controlled Yagura with 3 tomoe is not true because Kishi was known to hide it and Obito clearly had access to it.

Now in regard to the black rod and genjutsu control of Yagura, at one point in time I theorized myself that Yagura was controlled that way so I agree it was possible. However, you are only using short term paralysis genjutsu in your 'proof'. By this I mean that long term genjutsu or genjutsu used by a superior user could bypass the limitation Perfect jins have over it. Even if Yagura was a perfect jin, its possible that Bee was simply that much better than him.

Either way, the whole Yagura thing is a huge dilemma of plot consistency. Either it breaks the rule or perfect jins being immune to genjutsu or it creates another problem of both Obito and Madara being capable of Genjutsu on the level of Shisui's KA. Completely separately, it could be that the black rods did 90% of the manipulation and ceased the personal control, but that would utterly destroy the mangafact that Yagura was manipulated by the Sharingan. Quite the quandary, no?

Madara actually doesn't have the best genjustu. By feats, he's actually the least genjustu oriented, he's more on the ninjustu side of Uchiha ability.

And when Obito submitted a a bijuu with gedo chains/rods, a three tomoe appeared:

Spoiler

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I have an easier explanation. Remember at the start of Shippuden when Sasuke entered Naruto's inner world? Well, Obito could have done that and put Isobu in a Genjutsu. Perfect Jin's are only "immune" to genjutsu because the Bijuu can break it for them.

Yeah, they said that Sasuke suppress the kyuubi's chakra with his sharingan. That was when Naruto had no control over the kyuubi, but now there's not gate holding the beast.

For Obito to open that inner space, he'll need to fight the three tails and Yagura in that space.

 

[NarutoX28]

Kurama stated that Sasuke could peer into Naruto's conscious with the Sharingan provided if you're highly skilled which Obito is due to having Hashi's DNA as well, so Obito could've done just that, suppressed the Bijuu's chakra, and then continued to use Genjutsu on Yagura when the Bijuu's power was suppressed.

Edit: Well shit, someone beat me to it. :/

 

[VongolaX]

Kurama stated that Sasuke could peer into Naruto's conscious with the Sharingan provided if you're highly skilled which Obito is due to having Hashi's DNA as well, so Obito could've done just that, suppressed the Bijuu's chakra, and then continued to use Genjutsu on Yagura when the Bijuu's power was suppressed.

Edit: Well shit, someone beat me to it. :/

What Hebi Sasuke did there was suppress the kyuubi's chakra.

That doesn't work on a perfect Jinchuuriki:

Spoiler

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[SatanicGod]

Agreed. But 3 tomoe or MS. A perfect jinchuuriki can break out of it like Bee did. Correct?



Madara actually doesn't have the best genjustu. By feats, he's actually the least genjustu oriented, he's more on the ninjustu side of Uchiha ability.

And when Obito submitted a a bijuu with gedo chains/rods, a three tomoe appeared:

Spoiler

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Yeah, they said that Sasuke suppress the kyuubi's chakra with his sharingan. That was when Naruto had no control over the kyuubi, but now there's not gate holding the beast.

For Obito to open that inner space, he'll need to fight the three tails and Yagura in that space.

That is correct, so I'm with Stalker on this one, I think he went into the inner chamber, and put both Isobu and Yagura in genjutsu.

 

[VongolaX]

That is correct, so I'm with Stalker on this one, I think he went into the inner chamber, and put both Isobu and Yagura in genjutsu.

Then wouldn't the host break the bijuu out of a genjustu?

Because I'm wondering why Sasuke and Itachi wasn't able to do this.

And if his genjustu was this powerful at the age of 14, why did kakashi break it during their fight?

Why didn't he use it against minato during their fight?

:sdo:

Completely necessary.

 

[SatanicGod]

Then wouldn't the host break the bijuu out of a genjustu?

Because I'm wondering why Sasuke and Itachi wasn't able to do this.

And if his genjustu was this powerful at the age of 14, why did kakashi break it during their fight?

Why didn't he use it against minato during their fight?



Completely necessary.

No because both the host and Biju would be under genjutsu.

I think plot just either didn't allow them to use it, or Sasuke wasn't skilled enough in genjutsu

It's not a matter of the genjutsu being powerful, Biju have always been suspectable to ocular genjutsu, and Yagura may have been Mizukage, but this is the same Village that allowed somebody like Mei to become kage. So it can be safe to assume Yagura wasn't all that powerful. But a more appropriate answer: Sharingan genjutsu is OP and since Kakashi also had one, he was able to combat against it.

He didn't use a lot of things against Minato, he really only used Kamui and chains. He didn't use Mokuton or Katon either

 

[VongolaX]

No because both the host and Biju would be under genjutsu.

I think plot just either didn't allow them to use it, or Sasuke wasn't skilled enough in genjutsu

It's not a matter of the genjutsu being powerful, Biju have always been suspectable to ocular genjutsu, and Yagura may have been Mizukage, but this is the same Village that allowed somebody like Mei to become kage. So it can be safe to assume Yagura wasn't all that powerful. But a more appropriate answer: Sharingan genjutsu is OP and since Kakashi also had one, he was able to combat against it.

He didn't use a lot of things against Minato, he really only used Kamui and chains. He didn't use Mokuton or Katon either

I see what you're saying about everything else, but the genjustu scenario with the bjuu and the host.

If you put a bjuu inside the chamber in a genjustu, the host won't itself won't fall into a genjustu. At least for Kushina, that didn't happen.

So how exactly does this process work?

 

[Zawerni]

Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu because the Bijuu can break them out. This is what Bee did, and requires cooperation between host and Bijuu.

In Yagura's case, it could simply be that Isobu never cooperated with him.

 

[NarutoX28]

What Hebi Sasuke did there was suppress the kyuubi's chakra.

That doesn't work on a perfect Jinchuuriki:

Spoiler

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Except Sasuke merely trapped Bee in an illusion. He never directly entered his conscious and suppressed the Hachibi's power.

 

[VongolaX]

Except Sasuke merely trapped Bee in an illusion. He never directly entered his conscious and suppressed the Hachibi's power.

He's a perfect Jinchuuriki. How's he going to do that?

Hachibi wasn't looked up in a cage like the kyuubi

 

[NarutoX28]

He's a perfect Jinchuuriki. How's he going to do that?

Hachibi wasn't looked up in a cage like the kyuubi

The seal only prevents the Bijuu's chakra from being released. How does it prevent a skilled Sharingan user from entering their conscious?

 

[VongolaX]

The seal only prevents the Bijuu's chakra from being released. How does it prevent a skilled Sharingan user from entering their conscious?

Nothing. It just means that it doesn't prevent the bijuu from attacking.

What is a genjustu user going to do with a bijuu and the host inside their conscious?

And I just remembered that when your link is perfectly synced with a bijuu (like a perfect jinc) you can't enter their deeper level of a bijuu's conscious.

Spoiler

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So that doesn't work either.

 

[Floydical]

Spoiler

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This image just about solos your claims be it Kishi's attempt to hide Obito's MS or not, if this is what took place in manga then this is fact. And what this is, is Obito controlling Yagura without having MS activated. Stop making excuses to bypass the truth in front of your face.

Agreed. But 3 tomoe or MS. A perfect jinchuuriki can break out of it like Bee did. Correct?



Madara actually doesn't have the best genjustu. By feats, he's actually the least genjustu oriented, he's more on the ninjustu side of Uchiha ability.

You are both missing the bigger picture here. YES Obito's 3-tomoe is being shown in these scenarios, but what you are missing is the fact that he is actually using MS, but Kishi is refusing to show it to you because IT WOULD GIVE AWAY HIS IDENTITY.

Look here, Obito is using his phasing while maintaining 3-tomoe. This is obviously COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE. The only reason he could be using phasing with 3 tomoe active is if Kishi is breaking the rules by not showing his MS when its active specifically to not give away his identity.

Spoiler

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Therefore, every single scenario of Obito only showing 3 tomoe while under the guise of Tobi can be ignored and is not mangafact. In any scenario you bring up, its likely Obito was using MS but it was not shown as it would give away his identity. Get it now?

 

[VongolaX]

You are both missing the bigger picture here. YES Obito's 3-tomoe is being shown in these scenarios, but what you are missing is the fact that he is actually using MS, but Kishi is refusing to show it to you because IT WOULD GIVE AWAY HIS IDENTITY.

Look here, Obito is using his phasing while maintaining 3-tomoe. This is obviously COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE. The only reason he could be using phasing with 3 tomoe active is if Kishi is breaking the rules by not showing his MS when its active specifically to not give away his identity.

Spoiler

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Therefore, every single scenario of Obito only showing 3 tomoe while under the guise of Tobi can be ignored and is not mangafact. In any scenario you bring up, its likely Obito was using MS but it was not shown as it would give away his identity. Get it now?

You miss the post entirely.

It's a matter of what power is being use to increase his genjustu power against a perfect jinchuuriki. Either it be 3 tomoe or MS, they can't control a perfect jinchuuriki like that. Get it?

 

[Floydical]

You miss the post entirely.

It's a matter of what power is being use to increase his genjustu power against a perfect jinchuuriki. Either it be 3 tomoe or MS, they can't control a perfect jinchuuriki like that. Get it?

You're saying combining his Genjutsu with powers from the Gedo Mazou, black rods and the Uzumaki clan suppression chains made him more powerful and allowed for these feats. That's fine.

My gripe was primarily with Rhy Uchiha on this one, so I apologize.

 

[VongolaX]

You're saying combining his Genjutsu with powers from the Gedo Mazou and the black rods to make him more powerful is what allowed for these feats. That's fine.

Exactly. Just what Madara did to Obito when he was attached to the Mazou, it's the only way a perfect jinchuuriki can get caught.

My gripe was primarily with Rhy Uchiha on this one, so I apologize.

No worries. Even with a EMS genjutsu, 3 tomoe will appear on the eyes of the thing being controlled:

Spoiler

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^^So you can use this as an argument, as for Obito his eyes were never shown behind mask when using an MS technique. It's usually hidden from the viewers until the last fight with Kakashi.

My main concern where those who did not believe that MS Obito can use the power of gedo after the manga specifically showed that he can.