Why didn't BSM enlarge Kurama Avatar?

[The Demon Hawk]

I already answered why in the previous post. Because when Naruto infused NE into his TBB, NE only enhanced the power and strength of the TBB, not thie size.

The thing is... An empowered chakra will result in the increase in strength AND size proportionally. So an increase in strength is not possible without the increase in size. Either the TBB and Kurama Avatar didn't increase in power, or the TBB and Kurama Avatar should've increased in size. Pick one.

The reason I stated this is because it's a perfect example, it depicts exactly how TBB reacts when it's infused with NE in comparison to how the Beast Mode Avatar reacts when infused with NE. Neither grows in size, but only in power and strength, therefore implying that NE does in fact enhance the power of Beast Mode and TBB, but doesn't enhance the size. It's simply that, the effects infusing NE into BM or TBB is an amplification in power and strength, not in size.

This is already addressed in the first quote reply. Though I'll ask this: How can you prove that the Avatar in TBB grew in power and strength?

Plus, I'm asking "why?" but you're constantly stating "what?".

(Bold: Thats what I was trying to say in the first place :sdo: )

I said that with a "perhaps" and that was wrong. Sage Mode does increase the size. the only reason it didn't increase the size of Kurama Avatar is because the Senjutsu chakra was too insignificant compared to Kurama's chakra to actually cause any effect.

(Bold: You're soloing yourself, Bud :sdo

Maybe you missed the "But if what you say is really the case" part.

Rikudou chakra didn't increase the size of the Avatar :sdo: having portions of all the tailed beast sealed inside him increased the size of the Avatar.

Now, THAT is utterly wrong, bro. Rikodou chakra did increase the size of the Avatar. You really think a tiny portion of all tailed beasts chakra could provide such a boost for such an extended period? :lol

(Bold: That is completely and utterly incorrect. :sdo: )

No, it's not.

I don't know about this, i'm guessing Beast Mode attracts NE because they're originally both from the Shinju Tree :wut: Idk.

Maybe, it's just being in that state which causes this phenomenon.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Because only Naruto had the sage chakra, it didn't affect his avatar. Why do you think when he makes TBB in BSM he still needs to add Senjutsu chakra to the attack to break Jubito's Gudodama? If senjutsu was apart of Kurama's chakra there would already be Senjutsu chakra inside the TBB. Only he gets the senjutsu, not the avatar.

Yeah, that part was confusing me. And I thought exactly what you're saying, and I've already mentioned that in the OP. But that logic is wrong because going by that, Naruto's RSM state shouldn't increase the size of the Avatar either because that is also inside Naruto only, which is did.

 

[LuckyMan]

Yeah, that part was confusing me. And I thought exactly what you're saying, and I've already mentioned that in the OP. But that logic is wrong because going by that, Naruto's RSM state shouldn't increase the size of the Avatar either because that is also inside Naruto only, which is did.

But Ridoku chakra isn't normal so those same circumstances don't apply to it.

 

[Chaosmark101]

The most lackluster answer but actually the most convincing ^. So basically, the SM boost was too insignificant compared to Kurama's chakra to actually affect the Avatar (NarutoX28 explained that good). And it probably also didn't affect the power of the Avatar either. And that also means his non-Avatar state wasn't affected by a lot as well (maybe just slightly empowered) by attaining BSM because the boost was still insignificant compared to Kurama's chakra. It just facilitated Naruto with Sage Mode abilities and the advantage of nature energy like sensing and not get negated by TSB.

I though about Sasuke's Senjutsu Susanoo but that was an addition of power, not combination like Naruto, so I couldn't exactly determine the respective answer for Naruto.

BTW, you liked HashiHashi's post that says "NE only enhanced the power and strength of the TBB, not thie size". Do you agree with that? Which means you're contradicting yourself.

Thank you I try lol. Anyways senjutsu still helps immensely. It boosts his person, & his avatar. An easy to notice example is Naruto's BM avatar best tanking feat before was V1 juubi's bijuu laser, now all of a sudden he could survive JJ Obito's dive bomb. Something that would have probably killed BM Naruto. & Gaining senjutsu while it was an addition, it also combined with Sasuke's Susanoo giving it the improved stats & curse seal markings. Not sure what that line was supposed to mean?

Also I liked Hashi's post because I agreed with some of his post, not everything. Namely his response to this quote of yours on the previous page.
"The Avatar's size depends upon the quality of chakra, not quantity" Which hashihashi said was incorrect which is absolutely true.

 

[NarutoX28]

NE doesn't increase chakra size but power and where did you get the idea that kurama cloak increases in size with more chakra.

It actually does.

It's the reason why SM Naruto's Rasengans increase in size in proportion to Base Naruto's and it's the same reason why Sasuke's Cursed Seal enables him to release more Chakra overall. We also have statements from Pa where Sage Mode enables one to recover at a faster rate:

You must be registered for see links

Because Natural Energy is literally considered an additional energy source and it makes sense considering SM Naruto can use more techniques that are larger in scale in comparison to Base Naruto.

 

[NarutoX28]

I don't know about this, i'm guessing Beast Mode attracts NE because they're originally both from the Shinju Tree :wut: Idk.

You must be registered for see links

Enormous amounts of Chakra attracts Natural Energy. Because BM Naruto's reserves are higher due to using both of his own Chakra and Kurama's, he's capable of absorbing Natural Energy a lot faster than he would if he wasn't using his Bijuu Mode.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

But Ridoku chakra isn't normal so those same circumstances don't apply to it.

It's still Senjutsu chakra though, just a more powerful version.

Thank you I try lol. Anyways senjutsu still helps immensely. It boosts his person, & his avatar.

But not by much. Just some subtle enhancements.

An easy to notice example is Naruto's BM avatar best tanking feat before was V1 juubi's bijuu laser, now all of a sudden he could survive JJ Obito's dive bomb. Something that would have probably killed BM Naruto.

Naruto's BM Avatar not surviving JJ Obito's dive bomb is just as assumption, so I'll keep it to that. I'm not denying the increase in durability, but it wasn't significant to an extent that BM Naruto would've been "killed", judging from the fact that the Senjutsu boost was too insignificant to even noticeably affect the Avatar's size. He could have definitely survived that, just the injuries afterwards might be greater.

BTW, I don't recall the Juubi laser hitting Naruto, so can you post the scan? Because without that, I can't evaluate how would the Juubi laser compare to JJ Obito's dive bomb, and how would Naruto's pre-Senjutsu Avatar stack up. Or was Naruto's Avatar completely destroyed or partially? I'll completely reply to this part after you post the scan.

& Gaining senjutsu while it was an addition, it also combined with Sasuke's Susanoo giving it the improved stats & curse seal markings. Not sure what that line was supposed to mean?

Sasuke's Senjutsu Susanoo had the same strength and durability as BSM Naruto's Kyuubi Avatar as shown by Obito's dive bomb impact. Which probably means Sasuke's V3 Susanoo is on par with BM Naruto's Avatar. Kinda surprising since I always thought it was weaker...

Sasuke's PS probably had the same strength and durability as BSM Naruto's Avatar, which is backed up by the fact that Iso Susanoo was possible. Then that means BM to BSM boost was the same as V3 to PS boost. If that's really the case, then what you said about BSM Naruto's Avatar's increased durability is true, because then it means Senjutsu provided a similar augmentation as 2 additional Susanoo layers.

Also I liked Hashi's post because I agreed with some of his post, not everything.

Fair enough.

Namely his response to this quote of yours on the previous page.
"The Avatar's size depends upon the quality of chakra, not quantity" Which hashihashi said was incorrect which is absolutely true.

No, that quote wasn't incorrect and HashiHashi was wrong on that. If the Avatar's size depended upon chakra quantity, then the Avatar would be differing in size throughout the battle because the quantity varies, which it clearly doesn't. Chakra quantity only decides the duration or the number of times something can be done, the strength and size are determined by chakra quality, which is a fact.

 

[Chaosmark101]

But not by much. Just some subtle enhancements.

It wasn't subtle it was huge to the point that EMS Sasuke suddenly felt inferiority [

You must be registered for see links

]

Naruto's BM Avatar not surviving JJ Obito's dive bomb is just as assumption, so I'll keep it to that. I'm not denying the increase in durability, but it wasn't significant to an extent that BM Naruto would've been "killed", judging from the fact that the Senjutsu boost was too insignificant to even noticeably affect the Avatar's size. He could have definitely survived that, just the injuries afterwards might be greater.

BTW, I don't recall the Juubi laser hitting Naruto, so can you post the scan? Because without that, I can't evaluate how would the Juubi laser compare to JJ Obito's dive bomb, and how would Naruto's pre-Senjutsu Avatar stack up. Or was Naruto's Avatar completely destroyed or partially? I'll completely reply to this part after you post the scan.

Naruto blocked the attack albeit at the cost of

You must be registered for see links

Sasuke's Senjutsu Susanoo had the same strength and durability as BSM Naruto's Kyuubi Avatar as shown by Obito's dive bomb impact. Which probably means Sasuke's V3 Susanoo is on par with BM Naruto's Avatar. Kinda surprising since I always thought it was weaker...

Sasuke's V3 with X6 boost from Yin & Yang Kurama + Juugo's senjutsu is what made it equal to the BSM Kurama avatar. Otherwise V3 can't dream of matching the Kurama avatar :lol .Only EMS Sasuke's PS can.

Sasuke's PS probably had the same strength and durability as BSM Naruto's Avatar, which is backed up by the fact that Iso Susanoo was possible. Then that means BM to BSM boost was the same as V3 to PS boost. If that's really the case, then what you said about BSM Naruto's Avatar's increased durability is true, because then it means Senjutsu provided a similar augmentation as 2 additional Susanoo layers.

Sasuke's PS = Naruto's Kurama avatar in durability. ISO Susanoo is just PS Coating a Tailed Beast. Addressed above why V3 can't equal the kyuubi avatar.

No, that quote wasn't incorrect and HashiHashi was wrong on that. If the Avatar's size depended upon chakra quantity, then the Avatar would be differing in size throughout the battle because the quantity varies, which it clearly doesn't. Chakra quantity only decides the duration or the number of times something can be done, the strength and size are determined by chakra quality, which is a fact.

No he was clearly right. Without chakra quantity the kyuubi avatar cannot be constructed at all which i believe is what he meant, & is supported by the manga [

You must be registered for see links

]. Not enough chakra = No avatar regardless of quality or strength.

 

[shelke]

It's because the Avatar can only carry a specific amount of chakra. In other words, it's constructed out of a limited chakra and works on a limited time. Its durability increased because the chakra fueling it came from a far better source this time. The quantity would remain the same. Just like PS cannot incorporate more chakra pieces to make it bigger. That is all there is to it.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

It wasn't subtle it was huge to the point that EMS Sasuke suddenly felt inferiority [

You must be registered for see links

]

EMS Sasuke wasn't fully developed, that's why. He wouldn't feel the same inferiority if he had PS. Plus, Sasuke only felt inferiority because Naruto could control a large amount of chakra, which actually wasn't jealousy, more like being disturbed by Naruto's speedy growth. And then there was the fact that Naruto had Senjutsu so his attacks were actually effective whereas Sasuke's weren't, so that's another factor.

Naruto blocked the attack albeit at the cost of

You must be registered for see links

So Naruto tanked the Juubi laser which only damaged six of Kurama's tails. And JJ Obito's dive bomb completely destroyed Naruto and Sasuke's Senjutsu enhanced Avatar, and is clearly the more powerful attack. But there is no way of determining the disparity between the two. So in the end, BM Naruto not surviving the dive bomb still retains its "assumption" label.

Sasuke's V3 with X6 boost from Yin & Yang Kurama + Juugo's senjutsu is what made it equal to the BSM Kurama avatar. Otherwise V3 can't dream of matching the Kurama avatar :lol .Only EMS Sasuke's PS can.

@bold LOL, what the hell? There was no Kurama boost. Just Sasuke's V3 Susanoo empowered by Juugo's Senjutsu, which suffered the exact SAME consequences as BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar, which means without an equal Senjutsu boost, V3 Susanoo is equal to BM Kurama Avatar. PS was probably equal to BSM considering the addition of power by two additional layers.

Sasuke's PS = Naruto's Kurama avatar in durability. ISO Susanoo is just PS Coating a Tailed Beast. Addressed above why V3 can't equal the kyuubi avatar.

Didn't make any sense...

No he was clearly right. Without chakra quantity the kyuubi avatar cannot be constructed at all which i believe is what he meant, & is supported by the manga [

You must be registered for see links

]. Not enough chakra = No avatar regardless of quality or strength.

If that was what he meant, then it's a totally lame AF thing to say because everyone knows that. And the point about "enough chakra" is not even relevant, because the argument was about empowerment, not creation. He was actually saying that more chakra empowers the Avatar, which is totally false.

 

[HENI]

Because SM doesn't enlarge your body.

 

[SatanicGod]

I believe the Kyubi Avatar is actually the Kyubi itself, but through the only way 50% Kyubi (or the seal) can manifest itself. Hence why the size never increased, because SM has never increased anybody's size

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Because SM doesn't enlarge your body.

I believe the Kyubi Avatar is actually the Kyubi itself, but through the only way 50% Kyubi (or the seal) can manifest itself. Hence why the size never increased, because SM has never increased anybody's size

^^ But body is not made of chakra, so it not growing with the increase in chakra makes sense, but not the Avatar. The only explanation could be that the Senjutsu boost was minimal and not significant enough to affect its size.

 

[Chaosmark101]

EMS Sasuke wasn't fully developed, that's why. He wouldn't feel the same inferiority if he had PS. Plus, Sasuke only felt inferiority because Naruto could control a large amount of chakra, which actually wasn't jealousy, more like being disturbed by Naruto's speedy growth. And then there was the fact that Naruto had Senjutsu so his attacks were actually effective whereas Sasuke's weren't, so that's another factor.

Um a new susanoo upgrade isn't all of a sudden going to give Sasuke a boost in confidence dude.
But yes Naruto knowing SM definitely was a factor.

So Naruto tanked the Juubi laser which only damaged six of Kurama's tails. And JJ Obito's dive bomb completely destroyed Naruto and Sasuke's Senjutsu enhanced Avatar, and is clearly the more powerful attack. But there is no way of determining the disparity between the two. So in the end, BM Naruto not surviving the dive bomb still retains its "assumption" label.

I just said that because I'm pretty sure Juubito was > V1 Juubi in power.

@bold LOL, what the hell? There was no Kurama boost. Just Sasuke's V3 Susanoo empowered by Juugo's Senjutsu, which suffered the exact SAME consequences as BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar, which means without an equal Senjutsu boost, V3 Susanoo is equal to BM Kurama Avatar. PS was probably equal to BSM considering the addition of power by two additional layers.

I'm sorry to say man, but I think you may need to get your eyes checked. [

You must be registered for see links

]
Naruto gave him the cloak, so he & Minato could warp him & everyone to safety from the quad bijuu dama [

You must be registered for see links

]. lasted until Juubito's dive bomb. & I can't believe you missed it dude. X). Time to visit an optometrist ay?

Didn't make any sense...

You sorta missed a big factor that boosted V3 to his PS's level.

If that was what he meant, then it's a totally lame AF thing to say because everyone knows that. And the point about "enough chakra" is not even relevant, because the argument was about empowerment, not creation. He was actually saying that more chakra empowers the Avatar, which is totally false.

Lol that's what I got from the that post, maybe he meant it maybe not. But since you guys were just talking about size probably not hahaha

 

[SatanicGod]

^^ But body is not made of chakra, so it not growing with the increase in chakra makes sense, but not the Avatar. The only explanation could be that the Senjutsu boost was minimal and not significant enough to affect its size.

Buy Kyubi still can manifest itself bigger than he already is, and Sage Mode doesn't increase your reserves, it just buffs what you already have. Kurama's avatar size is a matter of the chakra quantity, not quality

 

[NarutoX28]

I believe the Kyubi Avatar is actually the Kyubi itself, but through the only way 50% Kyubi (or the seal) can manifest itself. Hence why the size never increased, because SM has never increased anybody's size

Except Rikudou Chakra enhanced the size of Naruto's Kurama Avatar.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Um a new susanoo upgrade isn't all of a sudden going to give Sasuke a boost in confidence dude.

Which is your biased assumption...

You say that V3 Susanoo was inferior to BM Kurama Avatar much in the same way PS is inferior to BSM Kurama Avatar. So if Sasuke didn't need the boost in confidence then (in the same standing), why should he need it now? Doesn't make sense.

But yes Naruto knowing SM definitely was a factor.

Yeah, that was the only noteworthy factor aside from the large amounts of chakra Naruto was controlling.

I just said that because I'm pretty sure Juubito was > V1 Juubi in power.

Juubito being > V1 Juubi in power doesn't automatically make ALL his attacks > all of V1 Juubi's attacks in power. Yes, the same techniques will be correspondingly stronger, but different techniques? Not necessarily. So we can't say a technique is stronger just because it belongs to Juubito.

Dive bomb was stronger than the Juubi laser though, but we don't know by how much it was stronger, so a comparison is futile. And even if we knew by how much was Juubito's attack stronger, the damage done to Kurama Avatar at both times was completely different. So even then we can't be resolute that BM Naruto wouldn't have survived the dive bomb. And because of that, your argument about BSM Kurama Avatar's increased durability still isn't proven.

IMO, the durability was just slightly bumped by Senjutsu, nothing much. And the huge boost in durability doesn't even logically make sense. Because the boost in durability occurs due to empowered chakra, and if the chakra boost was too insignificant to affect the size of the Avatar, what makes you think it would affect its durability by that margin? They both should increase proportionally because they both rely on chakra potency, which increased the same for both.

I'm sorry to say man, but I think you may need to get your eyes checked. [

You must be registered for see links

]
Naruto gave him the cloak, so he & Minato could warp him & everyone to safety from the quad bijuu dama [

You must be registered for see links

]. lasted until Juubito's dive bomb. & I can't believe you missed it dude. X). Time to visit an optometrist ay?


You sorta missed a big factor that boosted V3 to his PS's level.

Oh yeah, you're right on that. I surely missed that part.

I initially thought V3 Susanoo was weaker than BM Kurama Avatar. But after seeing that dive bomb impact, and due to missing the Kurama cloak part, I thought they were equal, which was perplexing actually. Because if they were equal, how could a bigger boost like the addition of 2 layers on Susanoo be equal to the insignificant boost granted by SM? Made no sense. But now it does because the missing link is figured out.

So actually, V3 Susanoo was weaker than BM Kurama Avatar. But the bigger and more prominent 2 layer boost made it <= BSM Kurama Avatar since the Senjutsu boost was too insignificant for a proportional progress or any noticeable progress at all. And since you have no proof (factual OR logical) that the SM boost to the Kurama Avatar was immense, I'm not going to accept that.

Lol that's what I got from the that post, maybe he meant it maybe not. But since you guys were just talking about size probably not hahaha

Yeah, the size depended upon chakra quality, not quantity.

Buy Kyubi still can manifest itself bigger than he already is, and Sage Mode doesn't increase your reserves, it just buffs what you already have. Kurama's avatar size is a matter of the chakra quantity, not quality

That's because the Kyuubi's manifestation in the form of Avatar doesn't depend upon its original size. It only relies on the combined chakra potency of Naruto and Kurama. That's probably the reason, aside from the aesthetics, why Kishi decided to give Naruto an Avatar, because it could vary in size and stay in proportion to Sasuke's Susanoo which also varied in size.

 

[Chaosmark101]

Which is your biased assumption...

You say that V3 Susanoo was inferior to BM Kurama Avatar much in the same way PS is inferior to BSM Kurama Avatar. So if Sasuke didn't need the boost in confidence then (in the same standing), why should he need it now? Doesn't make sense.

PS = Kurama Avatar. Logically Kurama Avatar + Senjutsu pushes it over. Especially since Senjutsu enhanced TBB's are a thing.

Juubito being > V1 Juubi in power doesn't automatically make ALL his attacks > all of V1 Juubi's attacks in power. Yes, the same techniques will be correspondingly stronger, but different techniques? Not necessarily. So we can't say a technique is stronger just because it belongs to Juubito.

Dive bomb was stronger than the Juubi laser though, but we don't know by how much it was stronger, so a comparison is futile. And even if we knew by how much was Juubito's attack stronger, the damage done to Kurama Avatar at both times was completely different. So even then we can't be resolute that BM Naruto wouldn't have survived the dive bomb. And because of that, your argument about BSM Kurama Avatar's increased durability still isn't proven.

I still think because you know when BSM Naruto hit the floor, he was able to get up so quickly because he was in SM. Could have been much more worse had he not been in it.

IMO, the durability was just slightly bumped by Senjutsu, nothing much. And the huge boost in durability doesn't even logically make sense. Because the boost in durability occurs due to empowered chakra, and if the chakra boost was too insignificant to affect the size of the Avatar, what makes you think it would affect its durability by that margin? They both should increase proportionally because they both rely on chakra potency, which increased the same for both.

Yeah my opinion on the durability of the avatar changed after reading Luckyman's, Shelke's, & Naruto X28's posts. I don't think the senjutsu was that significant anymore as I did earlier.

I initially thought V3 Susanoo was weaker than BM Kurama Avatar. But after seeing that dive bomb impact, and due to missing the Kurama cloak part, I thought they were equal, which was perplexing actually. Because if they were equal, how could a bigger boost like the addition of 2 layers on Susanoo be equal to the insignificant boost granted by SM? Made no sense. But now it does because the missing link is figured out.

So actually, V3 Susanoo was weaker than BM Kurama Avatar. But the bigger and more prominent 2 layer boost made it <= BSM Kurama Avatar since the Senjutsu boost was too insignificant for a proportional progress or any noticeable progress at all. And since you have no proof (factual OR logical) that the SM boost to the Kurama Avatar was immense, I'm not going to accept that.

I stated above I don't think the boost was "immense" anymore. Completely agree with this statement.

Yeah, the size depended upon chakra quality, not quantity.

Yup

That's because the Kyuubi's manifestation in the form of Avatar doesn't depend upon its original size. It only relies on the combined chakra potency of Naruto and Kurama. That's probably the reason, aside from the aesthetics, why Kishi decided to give Naruto an Avatar, because it could vary in size and stay in proportion to Sasuke's Susanoo which also varied in size.

Thats it.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

PS = Kurama Avatar. Logically Kurama Avatar + Senjutsu pushes it over. Especially since Senjutsu enhanced TBB's are a thing.

I would have gone into more detail for the response to this, but since you're in agreement for the most part, I won't. I'll just slightly reemphasize my point. Since Senjutsu boost is very insignificant (which you agree with), BSM Kurama Avatar >= BM Kurama Avatar. Which means PS is also roughly equal to them, and the minute difference if any, will be erased by time.

I still think because you know when BSM Naruto hit the floor, he was able to get up so quickly because he was in SM. Could have been much more worse had he not been in it.

Yes, definitely. SM surely increased durability, even if the margin was slight. And I've already mentioned that BM Naruto would have suffered a little more damage after his Avatar got destroyed.

Yeah my opinion on the durability of the avatar changed after reading Luckyman's, Shelke's, & Naruto X28's posts. I don't think the senjutsu was that significant anymore as I did earlier.

I stated above I don't think the boost was "immense" anymore. Completely agree with this statement.


Yup


Thats it.

Very well then. I think we're pretty much on the same page...