Why didn't BSM enlarge Kurama Avatar?

[The Demon Hawk]

We know that SM employs nature energy to boost the user's chakra. That means using SM in conjunction with BM should empower Naruto's BM chakra. And it's also evident that Kurama Avatar is created from THAT chakra. So naturally, that enhancement to the chakra should empower the Avatar as well, which is did surely...

But a boost in chakra should increase in the size and power of the Avatar. But as we've seen, Kurama Avatar remained the same size in BM and BSM. And the attacks produced in BSM didn't have nature energy mixed in them by default, but rather Naruto had to add NE to his ninjutsu as a separate process.

So can anyone explain why? At first, I thought that BM and SM were simultaneously used but not combined together, because that seemed most viable and explained the above two points. But that's not possible since Naruto clearly said that BM quickened the gathering of natural energy which means Kurama's chakra was involved for that enhancement to occur. So those powers weren't just simultaneously used but actually merged together.

 

[NarutoX28]

Because I personally think he only augmented his Base Chakras with Natural Energy, so the boost would be rather minimal.

 

[Magnolius]

We know that SM employs nature energy to boost the user's chakra. That means using SM in conjunction with BM should empower Naruto's BM chakra. And it's also evident that Kurama Avatar is created from THAT chakra. So naturally, that enhancement to the chakra should empower the Avatar as well, which is did surely...

The enhancement that Beast Mode gets from Sage Mode is only in power, not in size. This was implied when Naruto inserted Sage Mode chakra into his TBB, but it only grew in strength and power, not in size. This basically means that (as said in the quote above) Sage Mode enhances Beast Mode chakra, but does not multiply it. In order for something like the Beast Mode Avatar to grow, it would require having more chakra received from Kurama. Because Kurama was giving Naruto as much chakra as he was capable of (being only half of Kurama), the size of the Beast Mode Avatar was as far as it could grow.

But a boost in chakra should increase in the size and power of the Avatar. But as we've seen, Kurama Avatar remained the same size in BM and BSM. And the attacks produced in BSM didn't have nature energy mixed in them by default, but rather Naruto had to add NE to his ninjutsu as a separate process.

Not necessarily, because Sage Mode gives Naruto a boost in his chakra, and the Beast Mode Avatar does not depend on his chakra to activate, but the chakra he receives from Kurama.

So can anyone explain why? At first, I thought that BM and SM were simultaneously used but not combined together, because that seemed most viable and explained the above two points. But that's not possible since Naruto clearly said that BM quickened the gathering of natural energy which means Kurama's chakra was involved for that enhancement to occur. So those powers weren't just simultaneously used but actually merged together.

:sdo:

 

[Berserker]

Not enough NE to affect it's size.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Because I personally think he only augmented his Base Chakras with Natural Energy, so the boost would be rather minimal.

Well, if only his base chakra was augmented, that means only his base chakra was involved. Then what explains the speeded up gathering of NE? Naruto said that this process was a lot faster in BM, which means Kurama's chakra was also involved.

Not enough NE to affect it's size.

If that's the case, then the increase in power should also be negligent. But its power was enhanced noticeably.

 

[Berserker]

Well, if only his base chakra was augmented, that means only his base chakra was involved. Then what explains the speeded up gathering of NE? Naruto said that this process was a lot faster in BM, which means Kurama's chakra was also involved.



If that's the case, then the increase in power should also be negligent. But its power was enhanced noticeably.

Size probably has little to do with the power it holds. Like Naruto using SM won't actually increase him in size.

 

[NarutoX28]

Well, if only his base chakra was augmented, that means only his base chakra was involved. Then what explains the speeded up gathering of NE? Naruto said that this process was a lot faster in BM, which means Kurama's chakra was also involved.

This was made on Narutoforums as a response to somebody else, but I think it applies here.

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Kurama refers to his own chakra flowing out while Naruto used Sage Mode which means Kurama's Chakra combined with Naruto's own Senjutsu.

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Now, Kurama states that he can replicate that by allowing Naruto's Hermit Power along with Kurama's Chakra. Naruto's Hermit Power was his own Chakra augmented by Natural Energy, it's not his and Kurama's Chakra augmented by Natural Energy b/c it's no longer his own Sage Mode. Why else do you think Rikudou Senjutsu is considered a Six Paths Power rather than Naruto's own Enhanced Hermit Power?

If that's the case, then the increase in power should also be negligent. But its power was enhanced noticeably.

I don't think so. Sasuke never commented on the increase in power and Naruto didn't even use Bijuu Sage Mode, but Bijuu Mode instead against Madara. I don't think the increase was that big at all.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

The enhancement that Beast Mode gets from Sage Mode is only in power, not in size. This was implied when Naruto inserted Sage Mode chakra into his TBB, but it only grew in strength and power, not in size.

That's very much evident and a straightforward conclusion, but the real question is "why?". Why doesn't the Avatar increase in size when the potency of the chakra creating it is amplified.

We've seen Susanoo constantly growing in size and power as the potency of the user's chakra keeps increasing. Why isn't the same applicable for this? Or perhaps, Sage Mode doesn't really increase the size in any case.

This basically means that (as said in the quote above) Sage Mode enhances Beast Mode chakra, but does not multiply it. In order for something like the Beast Mode Avatar to grow, it would require having more chakra received from Kurama. Because Kurama was giving Naruto as much chakra as he was capable of (being only half of Kurama), the size of the Beast Mode Avatar was as far as it could grow.

The Avatar's size depends upon the quality of chakra, not quantity. More quantity is needed to maintain that Avatar, but not to actually form that Avatar. Otherwise, the size of the Avatar should keep decreasing as the battle goes on because the chakra quantity keeps decreasing, but that clearly doesn't happen.

Not necessarily, because Sage Mode gives Naruto a boost in his chakra, and the Beast Mode Avatar does not depend on his chakra to activate, but the chakra he receives from Kurama.



:sdo:

I've already stated that this is exactly what I thought before. But then what explains the quickened NE gathering if only his chakra is involved?

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Size probably has little to do with the power it holds. Like Naruto using SM won't actually increase him in size.

Well, the Avatars are actually different from the user himself. They are created with chakra, so empowering the chakra increases the size and power of the Avatar. But only the user's chakra is empowered, they do not increase in size because they aren't made of that chakra.

But if what you say is really the case, then SM must be an exception. That means Senjutsu only empowers the Avatar, not increase it in size. Much like Madara's Senjutsu Susanoo and Hashi's SM Mokujin, which also didn't increase in size.

But then the other problem raised with this is why did Kurama's Avatar increase in size after Naruto gained the Six Paths chakra?

This was made on Narutoforums as a response to somebody else, but I think it applies here.

Good explanation. Now can you explain why Six Paths Senjutsu chakra increases the size of the Avatar?

I don't think so. Sasuke never commented on the increase in power and Naruto didn't even use Bijuu Sage Mode, but Bijuu Mode instead against Madara. I don't think the increase was that big at all.

Technically, it should provide the same boost in power to the Avatar as it did to Naruto himself. It might be possible that the power of the Avatar didn't increase, but adding Senjutsu to the techniques surely empowered the techniques. But I've asked this before, what factors in the increase in size of RSM Kurama Avatar?

 

[NarutoX28]

But then the other problem raised with this is why did Kurama's Avatar increase in size after Naruto gained the Six Paths chakra?

Because Naruto's own Base Chakras is insignificant compared to Naruto's Rikudou Chakra which is greater than Kurama's own Chakra. The chakra itself enabled Naruto to far surpass his Bijuu Sage Mode without any Bijuu influence.

Good explanation. Now can you explain why Six Paths Senjutsu chakra increases the size of the Avatar?

Same as above and the chakra itself was augmented by a huge portion of Natural Energy (as it's kept proportionate to Naruto's Rikudou Chakra). It's no surprise it got bigger.

Technically, it should provide the same boost in power to the Avatar as it did to Naruto himself. It might be possible that the power of the Avatar didn't increase, but adding Senjutsu to the techniques surely empowered the techniques. But I've asked this before, what factors in the increase in size of RSM Kurama Avatar?

It depends. This is how I think of it:

Naruto: 1
Kurama: 10
BM Naruto: 11

Factor in the Sage Mode boost to Naruto's Base Chakra and we get:

Naruto: 2
Kurama: 10
BM Naruto: 12

Because Naruto's own Base Chakras is insignificant compared to Kurama's, the boost in Senjutsu wouldn't be as big to the overall Bijuu Mode as it would be if only Kurama's or even both of their Chakras were enhanced by Senjutsu. The reason I think it's something similar to addition is because their chakras are separate components and I can explain that further if you need me to.

 

[lndra]

Good question DH. Amma read a few chapters and see if I can give you a solid answer.

The only time I remember Kyuubi Avatar changing in size was when Naruto gained RSM, and when Naruto received Full Kurama.

 

[deadp00l]

There isn't any train of logic or reason behind.

It is so just because.

This is a unique/first case so kishi can do it without contradicting or plot holes.

 

[Seventh Sama]

iirc sm just makes your chakra much more potent, not increase your chakra pool. So that's a possible answer.

 

[Chaosmark101]

Doesn't work like that Demon hawk. If Senjutsu was supposed to increase the size of Avatars or Susanoo's.
Sasuke's V3 would have gotten bigger immediately after absorbing Juugo's Senjutsu chakra. [

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]. All the Senjutsu did for Naruto was provide Sensing so he could track Juubito. & Both got increased Durability, strength, & speed. Along with a way to bypass the TSB

 

[Magnolius]

That's very much evident and a straightforward conclusion, but the real question is "why?". Why doesn't the Avatar increase in size when the potency of the chakra creating it is amplified.

I already answered why in the previous post. Because when Naruto infused NE into his TBB, NE only enhanced the power and strength of the TBB, not thie size. The reason I stated this is because it's a perfect example, it depicts exactly how TBB reacts when it's infused with NE in comparison to how the Beast Mode Avatar reacts when infused with NE. Neither grows in size, but only in power and strength, therefore implying that NE does in fact enhance the power of Beast Mode and TBB, but doesn't enhance the size. It's simply that, the effects infusing NE into BM or TBB is an amplification in power and strength, not in size.

We've seen Susanoo constantly growing in size and power as the potency of the user's chakra keeps increasing. Why isn't the same applicable for this? Or perhaps, Sage Mode doesn't really increase the size in any case.

(Bold: Thats what I was trying to say in the first place :sdo: )

But if what you say is really the case, then SM must be an exception. That means Senjutsu only empowers the Avatar, not increase it in size. Much like Madara's Senjutsu Susanoo and Hashi's SM Mokujin, which also didn't increase in size.

(Bold: You're soloing yourself, Bud :sdo

Good explanation. Now can you explain why Six Paths Senjutsu chakra increases the size of the Avatar?

Rikudou chakra didn't increase the size of the Avatar :sdo: having portions of all the tailed beast sealed inside him increased the size of the Avatar.

The Avatar's size depends upon the quality of chakra, not quantity. More quantity is needed to maintain that Avatar, but not to actually form that Avatar. Otherwise, the size of the Avatar should keep decreasing as the battle goes on because the chakra quantity keeps decreasing, but that clearly doesn't happen.

(Bold: That is completely and utterly incorrect. :sdo: )

I've already stated that this is exactly what I thought before. But then what explains the quickened NE gathering if only his chakra is involved?

I don't know about this, i'm guessing Beast Mode attracts NE because they're originally both from the Shinju Tree :wut: Idk.

 

[Nick01]

I agree, it should've been bigger.

 

[oxtopus]

NE doesn't increase chakra size but power and where did you get the idea that kurama cloak increases in size with more chakra.

 

[Magnolius]

NE doesn't increase chakra size but power and where did you get the idea that kurama cloak increases in size with more chakra.

:sdo:

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Because Naruto's own Base Chakras is insignificant compared to Naruto's Rikudou Chakra which is greater than Kurama's own Chakra. The chakra itself enabled Naruto to far surpass his Bijuu Sage Mode without any Bijuu influence.





Same as above and the chakra itself was augmented by a huge portion of Natural Energy (as it's kept proportionate to Naruto's Rikudou Chakra). It's no surprise it got bigger.




It depends. This is how I think of it:



Because Naruto's own Base Chakras is insignificant compared to Kurama's, the boost in Senjutsu wouldn't be as big to the overall Bijuu Mode as it would be if only Kurama's or even both of their Chakras were enhanced by Senjutsu. The reason I think it's something similar to addition is because their chakras are separate components and I can explain that further if you need me to.

That sounds somewhat reasonable and explains it. But is Naruto's base chakra really THAT insignificant? Because if that's the case, then Sasuke's chakra is powerful enough to rival a combination of Naruto and Kurama's chakra. That seems off a little bit.

iirc sm just makes your chakra much more potent, not increase your chakra pool. So that's a possible answer.

Actually, chakra potency is what makes the Avatar change in size and power, not the overall quantity of chakra reserves. Because if that was the case, then the size of the Avatar would keep changing throughout the battle because chakra quantity is constantly changing as they fight.

I think SM boost isn't enough to empower the Avatar, as others are saying.

Doesn't work like that Demon hawk. If Senjutsu was supposed to increase the size of Avatars or Susanoo's.
Sasuke's V3 would have gotten bigger immediately after absorbing Juugo's Senjutsu chakra. [

You must be registered for see links

]. All the Senjutsu did for Naruto was provide Sensing so he could track Juubito. & Both got increased Durability, strength, & speed. Along with a way to bypass the TSB

The most lackluster answer but actually the most convincing ^. So basically, the SM boost was too insignificant compared to Kurama's chakra to actually affect the Avatar (NarutoX28 explained that good). And it probably also didn't affect the power of the Avatar either. And that also means his non-Avatar state wasn't affected by a lot as well (maybe just slightly empowered) by attaining BSM because the boost was still insignificant compared to Kurama's chakra. It just facilitated Naruto with Sage Mode abilities and the advantage of nature energy like sensing and not get negated by TSB.

I though about Sasuke's Senjutsu Susanoo but that was an addition of power, not combination like Naruto, so I couldn't exactly determine the respective answer for Naruto.

BTW, you liked HashiHashi's post that says "NE only enhanced the power and strength of the TBB, not thie size". Do you agree with that? Which means you're contradicting yourself.

I agree, it should've been bigger.

Well logically, yes. But the boost was probably insignificant. It didn't increase his power by much, just made his attacks effective against JJ Obito and provided sensing.

NE doesn't increase chakra size but power and where did you get the idea that kurama cloak increases in size with more chakra.

I never said that.

 

[LuckyMan]

Because only Naruto had the sage chakra, it didn't affect his avatar. Why do you think when he makes TBB in BSM he still needs to add Senjutsu chakra to the attack to break Jubito's Gudodama? If senjutsu was apart of Kurama's chakra there would already be Senjutsu chakra inside the TBB. Only he gets the senjutsu, not the avatar.