SM Hashirama vs SM Naruto and SM Kabuto

[Haizaki]

Apex I'm still trying to figure out what your argument is. V3 wasn't destroyed by Hirudora now? That's the new argument? Damn.

 

[Kagustuchi]

SM Naruto has no Taijutsu feats for you to hold above what Edo Madara did. He's fought in Taijutsu against Deva in Base, and overwhelmed him in SM due to superior strength. Not skill. Then we have him using Frog Kata on Preta, but that's not even a feat that would help your argument here. Other than that, SM Naruto has never been in straight hand to hand. Ever, and the times he was were the times where his enhanced strength let him slap his opponent aside despite Deva being able to respond perfectly to his attacks. Hashirama surpasses him in every statistical area of combat like I said before. No real reason to try and argue that Naruto wins.

Your lack of feats arguments applies to Hashirama as well. I can easily say that Hashirama has never been in straight hand to hand at all in the manga as he had a weapon.

Naruto has at least fought people that arnt fodder. Battling with Deva Path in Base isn't to great of a feat, but it's a decent one. Then in KCM he was able to match Itachi casually. While that feat doesn't completely transfer to SM Naruto in terms of speed/strength, the hand to hand skill was all Naruto. Thats not something KCM gives him.

And how does Hashirama surpass Naruto in every statistical area?

-No speed feats via movement, while I can name a few decent ones for Base Naruto and SM Naruto.

-No strength feats other than matching Madara, which isn't a big deal. Considering a worn out Hebi Sasuke sent Deidara a farther distance with a punch than the fodder Madara got a spin kick on (and kicks generate more power than punches)

-Got the stamina advantage since Kurama's restricted, but meh. Doesn't help much here.

-Naruto's got the better "battle smarts" feats

Blocking Ay's punch wouldn't be a big deal if Edo Tensei's properties actually helped him. He took no damage from that punch, so there's no reason to claim that ET nulls the feat. And B had to use a partial transformation to catch Ay's punch. Not to mention it was a punch thrown while he was standing still. Has far less momentum behind it than a Shunshin+punch, which is what Edo Madara blocked with no damage.

Doesn't change the fact that Base Bee overpowered his strongest lariat which is far more powerful than the punch Madara blocked.

And technically both of them tanked said lariats so.....

 

[Apêx1]

Apex I'm still trying to figure out what your argument is. V3 wasn't destroyed by Hirudora now? That's the new argument? Damn.

I did say it could be borderline retarded if I was missing something. I'm just unsure of why Madara himself isn't vulnerable since the very bottom of the Susano beneath the user (where the user stands) is not solid. Otherwise it just means Hirudora is ~ Kyuubi's tail hit.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your lack of feats arguments applies to Hashirama as well. I can easily say that Hashirama has never been in straight hand to hand at all in the manga as he had a weapon.

Doesn't matter since OP gave him a weapon.

Naruto has at least fought people that arnt fodder. Battling with Deva Path in Base isn't to great of a feat, but it's a decent one. Then in KCM he was able to match Itachi casually. While that feat doesn't completely transfer to SM Naruto in terms of speed/strength, the hand to hand skill was all Naruto. Thats not something KCM gives him.

And the hand skill isn't something that's going to help him win here when Hashirama already clashes with someone who'd easily beat Itachi in CQC or at the very least if we want to lowball it, match Itachi in CQC. Not to mention the hand skill is nice and all, but if the speed isn't there, you react later, thus you perform worse, and not just slightly worse.

And how does Hashirama surpass Naruto in every statistical area?

-No speed feats via movement, while I can name a few decent ones for Base Naruto and SM Naruto.

Physical equals with Madara, who is faster than Naruto in any form besides his cloaked modes. Then there's him traveling a couple Mountains distances to get away from PS Kurama, in Base. Then there's the fact that the only important speed here is reaction and regular body movement speed, both of which Madara surpasses Naruto in. Thus Hashirama surpasses him too, in Base, let alone Sage Mode.

-No strength feats other than matching Madara, which isn't a big deal. Considering a worn out Hebi Sasuke sent Deidara a farther distance with a punch than the fodder Madara got a spin kick on (and kicks generate more power than punches)

Yeah, ignoring the fact that Deidara is half the size of the fodder Madara kicked (not sure why you'd even bother to mention this as you'd basically be implying that Tired Sasuke>Madara). Also ignoring the fact that Hashirama has Sage Mode here. Anyway, EMS/Edo Madara's physical abilities surpass Base Naruto's. Hashirama matches Madara in Base. Hashirama in Sage Mode>>Hashirama in base when it comes to strength. Give Naruto and Hashirama a Sage boost and the gap remains the same. Only way it wouldn't is if Senjutsu grants different boosts to different people, which it doesn't, or if you are going to try and argue that Base Naruto>Madara and Hashirama in physical strength, when at best he'd match Base Sasuke, who is still physically inferior to Base Madara.


Wasn't War Obito w/ the Gunbai giving KCM Naruto that work? :lol Madara would demolish him, and Base Hashirama would demolish him. SM Hashirama would demolish him even worse.

-Naruto's got the better "battle smarts" feats

Which is useless here due to how Naruto applies his battle smarts. With clones.

Doesn't change the fact that Base Bee overpowered his strongest lariat which is far more powerful than the punch Madara blocked.

And technically both of them tanked said lariats so.....

Ay's punches obliterate cliffs. The lariat created a small crater in the ground. It's obvious which one is stronger. The only time Ay's lariat becomes stronger than his punch is when there is actually momentum behind it. KCM Naruto blocked Ay's punch and still said it was heavy. KCM Naruto is far more durable than B, so obviously a lariat that B can tank with zero damage isn't going to be stronger than a punch that KCM Naruto calls heavy.

Then there's the fact that this whole statement isn't even supported by the Manga. Where is it implied that the lariat he used on B is superior to the punch he used on Naruto and Madara?

 

[Haizaki]

I did say it could be borderline retarded if I was missing something. I'm just unsure of why Madara himself isn't vulnerable since the very bottom of the Susano beneath the user (where the user stands) is not solid. Otherwise it just means Hirudora is ~ Kyuubi's tail hit.

That's irrelevant..It should be solid as it would make zero sense for some parts to be solid and some parts not to when the user has free control over this. This is way too irrelevant anyways.

Not to mention Hirudora didn't Magically fill that hole and hit Madara or whatsoever without destroying Susano'o. What on earth are you talking about? Just irrelevant excuses to prove your point of the mountain buster feat or so.

 

[Apêx1]

That's irrelevant..It should be solid as it would make zero sense for some parts to be solid and some parts not to when the user has free control over this. This is way too irrelevant anyways.

Not to mention Hirudora didn't Magically fill that hole and hit Madara or whatsoever without destroying Susano'o. What on earth are you talking about? Just irrelevant excuses to prove your point of the mountain buster feat or so.

What? It's not a legged Susano. The user can walk on the ground while in that Susano, so obviously the bottom is not solid since that would mean he's not walking on the ground in the first place.

That's how pressure works.

 

[Haizaki]

What? It's not a legged Susano. The user can walk on the ground while in that Susano, so obviously the bottom is not solid since that would mean he's not walking on the ground in the first place.

That's how pressure works.

Then I'm pretty sure you're wrong because if Madara was the one that was hit which made his Susano'o deactivate, then Mokuton grip won't have loosened after the blast was finished but during the blast. Hence Susano'o got destroyed first and Madara got hit.

I didn't think I'll have to explain to anyone that AT destroyed V3 towards the end of the year smh.

 

[Apêx1]

Then I'm pretty sure you're wrong because if Madara was the one that was hit which made his Susano'o deactivate, then Mokuton grip won't have loosened after the blast was finished but during the blast. Hence Susano'o got destroyed first and Madara got hit.

I didn't think I'll have to explain to anyone that AT destroyed V3 towards the end of the year smh.

The explosion was already well into being finished when the Hachibi was still caught in it

You must be registered for see links

, so by your logic Madara's body was affected after the Hirudora explosion already disappeared, which makes no sense.

I only thought about this recently, I believed the same thing you are arguing before this lmao.

 

[Haizaki]

The explosion was already well into being finished when the Hachibi was still caught in it

You must be registered for see links

, so by your logic Madara's body was affected after the Hirudora explosion already disappeared, which makes no sense.

I only thought about this recently, I believed the same thing you are arguing before this lmao.

Nope...It can only mean one thing. It took a couple while for the explosion to hit Madara..Otherwise Mokutun would have been taken down long time ago unless you think Madara could last 11 panels in AT without dying as the explosion went on for that long. It took a couple while for it to destroy Susano'o and then hit Madara which was what's implied here. Towards the end of the explosion was when Hachibi had a surprised face. Over 11 panels and you're claiming Madara was hit first which led to Susano'o being deactivated..Only if you realize why your argument makes no sense. Also, Madara was extremely close to the ground in that scan where Hirudora carries him so there's little reason to believe the little air pressure would fill Susano'o up despite it being that near to the ground.

Plus the scan you linked shows a form of Susano'o under being covered underneath if you look closely and consider the fact that it practically extended to cover the hole given how far he is from the ground in comparison to before

You must be registered for see links

(Please don't use this dumb ethereal point as an excuse otherwise I'll ask you why that ethereal chakra there can be formed but somehow can't be manipulated by the wielder making it solid..Also don't use the ground argument or I'll ask why there's never an ethereal form while they stand normally). That hole was covered.

What you're telling me is the air pressure entered inside Susano'o and killed him from inside Susano'o. Smh.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Susanoo can cover under the user's feet if the user wishes so

You must be registered for see images

 

[Kagustuchi]

Doesn't matter since OP gave him a weapon.

I know, was just going to show that it still applies. He's still more or less featless with it.

And the hand skill isn't something that's going to help him win here when Hashirama already clashes with someone who'd easily beat Itachi in CQC or at the very least if we want to lowball it, match Itachi in CQC. Not to mention the hand skill is nice and all, but if the speed isn't there, you react later, thus you perform worse, and not just slightly worse.

And what feat allows Madara to beat Itachi? Because Itachi has much better Taijutsu feats and speed feats for that matter

Plus speed isn't the determining factor of a Taijutsu fight, otherwise Gai wouldn't have been able to press JJ Madara. By your logic of "if the speed isn't there" then Minato would beat Gai in a hand to fight, and we know that isn't happening.

Absolutely nothing indicates Madara Is all that great at Taijutsu. All he has is fodder crushing, and other characters have done it better.

Physical equals with Madara, who is faster than Naruto in any form besides his cloaked modes. Then there's him traveling a couple Mountains distances to get away from PS Kurama, in Base. Then there's the fact that the only important speed here is reaction and regular body movement speed, both of which Madara surpasses Naruto in. Thus Hashirama surpasses him too, in Base, let alone Sage Mode.

So we're gonna go with long distance speed feats? That doesn't help in a hand to hand fight, and Naruto has that feat beat in base anyway. Was able to scale the Shinju, go SM, and form Chou Oodama FRS before Kakashi could get a couple sentances out. While Hashirama took an entire conversation with Madara to go SM (even if you wanna say Naruto can charge SM faster, Shinju height >>>>>>> the distance Hashirama moved)

Yeah, ignoring the fact that Deidara is half the size of the fodder Madara kicked (not sure why you'd even bother to mention this as you'd basically be implying that Tired Sasuke>Madara).

Considering Naruto characters strength are superhuman (Kid Lee ripped a tree out of the ground with one hand) another 80 pounds or so would make much a diffrence. Sasuke was still exasuted and sent Deidara a MUCH farther diatance with a weaker type of attack.

Im not saying hes superior, but it shows that Madaras pysical strength isnt anything special.

Also ignoring the fact that Hashirama has Sage Mode here. Anyway, EMS/Edo Madara's physical abilities surpass Base Naruto's. Hashirama matches Madara in Base. Hashirama in Sage Mode>>Hashirama in base when it comes to strength. Give Naruto and Hashirama a Sage boost and the gap remains the same. Only way it wouldn't is if Senjutsu grants different boosts to different people, which it doesn't, or if you are going to try and argue that Base Naruto>Madara and Hashirama in physical strength, when at best he'd match Base Sasuke, who is still physically inferior to Base Madara.

I'm still gonna need feats that actually imply any of that scaling above, and I mean something actually happening. Because right now their just baseless assumptions.

Sage Mode does provide diffrent boosts in terms of benifits, increase in chakra potency (porportionally) is the only thing that stays dead the same. Naruto annihalates two Pains with pysical attacks while one caught Jiriaya's punch with one hand. Then there's Kabuto getting a bigger speed boost than Naruto but shows no sign of getting pysically stronger (Itachi parry'd him head on infact)

Wasn't War Obito w/ the Gunbai giving KCM Naruto that work? :lol Madara would demolish him, and Base Hashirama would demolish him. SM Hashirama would demolish him even worse.

Let's see him do it without Kamui, because Kakashi matched Obito by himself when Kamui was out of the question. Granted he didn't have the Gunbai.

Which is useless here due to how Naruto applies his battle smarts. With clones.

It shows hes better at hard reads than Hashirama and assess a situation and react appropriately. Hashirama has no such feats, he just throws out chakrazords.

Ay's punches obliterate cliffs. The lariat created a small crater in the ground. It's obvious which one is stronger.

Lariat is his stronges attack, and the whole point of the exchange was to prove who was stronger.

Your comparing a direct hit with an indirect one, which isnt a good comparison. He didnt obliterate a cliff either.

The only time Ay's lariat becomes stronger than his punch is when there is actually momentum behind it. KCM Naruto blocked Ay's punch and still said it was heavy. KCM Naruto is far more durable than B, so obviously a lariat that B can tank with zero damage isn't going to be stronger than a punch that KCM Naruto calls heavy.

Then there's the fact that this whole statement isn't even supported by the Manga. Where is it implied that the lariat he used on B is superior to the punch he used on Naruto and Madara?

I'm at work at the moment and that's gonna need a scan. I'll get one if I'm not going out after work.

 

[Apêx1]

Susanoo can cover under the user's feet if the user wishes so

You must be registered for see images

Damn you're right

 

[KidGamer65]

And what feat allows Madara to beat Itachi? Because Itachi has much better Taijutsu feats and speed feats for that matter

Plus speed isn't the determining factor of a Taijutsu fight, otherwise Gai wouldn't have been able to press JJ Madara. By your logic of "if the speed isn't there" then Minato would beat Gai in a hand to fight, and we know that isn't happening.

Absolutely nothing indicates Madara Is all that great at Taijutsu. All he has is fodder crushing, and other characters have done it better.

:lol, then I'll just ignore the Itachi point.

And no, it isn't. It's one of the determining factors. Not sure why you bothered to bring up Gai vs. JJ Madara when that proves my point. Gai strikes faster than Madara, that's why he was able to last without Madara cutting him down like he did to Minato. Minato isn't faster than any version of Gai when it comes to the speed that matters in offensive Taijutsu/CQC, so no, your example still doesn't make sense.

Nothing needs to imply he's great when the character your arguing for has no real feats in the area.

So we're gonna go with long distance speed feats? That doesn't help in a hand to hand fight, and Naruto has that feat beat in base anyway. Was able to scale the Shinju, go SM, and form Chou Oodama FRS before Kakashi could get a couple sentances out. While Hashirama took an entire conversation with Madara to go SM (even if you wanna say Naruto can charge SM faster, Shinju height >>>>>>> the distance Hashirama moved)

Ok then.

Considering Naruto characters strength are superhuman (Kid Lee ripped a tree out of the ground with one hand) another 80 pounds or so would make much a diffrence. Sasuke was still exasuted and sent Deidara a MUCH farther diatance with a weaker type of attack.

Them all having superhuman strength is irrelevant. The only way it'd be relevant is if you were trying to state that Madara's strength isn't up to that standard, and I doubt you are going to go there. Not to mention all characters are enhanced when it comes to sturdiness and whatnot when compared to regular humans. So you saying "another 80 pounds" wouldn't make a difference doesn't even make sense. Characters in this Manga should be punching each other meters and meters away if we assumed that a Ninja is just as sturdy as a regular human.

Im not saying hes superior, but it shows that Madaras pysical strength isnt anything special.

Your argument only helps you if it's actually true. So unless you are saying that Hebi Sasuke while tired>Madara, you can't even make a point. And now that I look at the Manga, your comparison is completely flawed anyway. Madara kicked the shinobi, who is 2x his size let alone Deidara, who is noticeably smaller than Madara, into another group of Shinobi. Thus that's obviously not an accurate measure of how far he would've gone had nothing been there to stop his travel.

I'm still gonna need feats that actually imply any of that scaling above, and I mean something actually happening. Because right now their just baseless assumptions.

The only kind of evidence I need to provide is evidence that proves my point. As long as it does that, what kind is completely irrelevant. Physical strength all depends on body, age, and chakra potency. Madara is older than Sasuke, has a stronger body than Sasuke (and so does Sage Hashirama, and please don't try to argue that) and his chakra is far stronger than Sasuke's (and Base Naruto's). Thus logical deduction tells you that Madara's physical abilities will surpass Sasuke's regardless of you wanting to see something on panel happen.

The pure fact that Madara can block Ay's punch with zero damage or without Ay crushing his guard puts his physical abilities above Base Naruto's and Base Sasuke's. Why in the world am I even arguing whether or not Base Hashirama and Madara are superior to Base Naruto in physical ability in the first place? :lol

Sage Mode does provide diffrent boosts in terms of benifits, increase in chakra potency (porportionally) is the only thing that stays dead the same. Naruto annihalates two Pains with pysical attacks while one caught Jiriaya's punch with one hand. Then there's Kabuto getting a bigger speed boost than Naruto but shows no sign of getting pysically stronger (Itachi parry'd him head on infact)

Nope. Nope. Nope. Naruto only killed Preta Path with a physical attack, and that was Frog Kata. Naruto has never annihilated any Pain with a physical attack from his physical body.

-Asura and Deva were killed by Rasengan.
-Animal and Naraka were killed by 2 Rasengan.
-Human was killed by FRS.
-Preta was killed by Frog Kata as mentioned above.

And if we want to make this comparison correct, you'd have to show me a Pain catching or blocking any of Jiraiya's kicks, because the only time SM Naruto physically overwhelmed Pain in CQC is when he kicked Deva Path both times. Jiraiya's kick blinded Human Path temporarily, but his punch was caught.

So no, all boosts are the same. The only reason the boost is a boost is because of the power up in chakra potency. So if chakra potency levels up proportionally, it makes no sense to try and claim that the boost to their physical abilities is different. And no, Kabuto never got a bigger boost than Naruto as Senjutsu is Senjutsu. You'd have to actually show that Kabuto=Base Naruto in speed, reaction and whatnot if you wanted to claim this, and there is zero evidence of Kabuto right before getting SM being equal with Naruto right before getting Sage Mode or during any part of this Manga. And once again, wrong. Itachi parried him with a sword,

You must be registered for see links

and Kabuto was relying more on chakra scalpel.

It shows hes better at hard reads than Hashirama and assess a situation and react appropriately. Hashirama has no such feats, he just throws out chakrazords.

Which still doesn't matter in a straight up hand to hand fight.

Lariat is his stronges attack, and the whole point of the exchange was to prove who was stronger.

Baseless assumption first of all, and that's what the exchange proved. B>Ay in physical strength, but obviously Ay's punches get their power from his speed and the momentum behind his fist due to his speed, and his physical strength in combination. Same reason why v1 Ay can match V1 B's lariat and take Kisame's head off despite Base B overpowering V2 Ay later on.

Your comparing a direct hit with an indirect one, which isnt a good comparison. He didnt obliterate a cliff either.

How?


Whatever he did, it was far greater damage than what Lariat did to the ground when B overpowered him.

I'm at work at the moment and that's gonna need a scan. I'll get one if I'm not going out after work.

Alright.

 

[Kagustuchi]

And no, it isn't. It's one of the determining factors. Not sure why you bothered to bring up Gai vs. JJ Madara when that proves my point. Gai strikes faster than Madara, that's why he was able to last without Madara cutting him down like he did to Minato. Minato isn't faster than any version of Gai when it comes to the speed that matters in offensive Taijutsu/CQC, so no, your example still doesn't make sense.

Nothing needs to imply he's great when the character your arguing for has no real feats in the area.

Gai doesn't strike faster than Madara or otherwise Madara wouldn't have been able to parry Hirudora. It was Gai's superior Taijutsu skill that allowed him to pressure Madara.

Proof Minato's slower than any Gated Gai other than 7th? Because you won't find any.

If you don't like that example then heres another. KCM Naruto despite being >>>>> Base Gai in every aspect of speed was given a hard time by Obito w/ Kamui (as you pointed out) yet Gai was that had the better read because of his Taijutsu skill.

Them all having superhuman strength is irrelevant. The only way it'd be relevant is if you were trying to state that Madara's strength isn't up to that standard, and I doubt you are going to go there. Not to mention all characters are enhanced when it comes to sturdiness and whatnot when compared to regular humans. So you saying "another 80 pounds" wouldn't make a difference doesn't even make sense. Characters in this Manga should be punching each other meters and meters away if we assumed that a Ninja is just as sturdy as a regular human.

Sturdyness doesn't increase weight, nearly every time someone with decent strength landed a blow then the target was knocked away. Otherwise it was blocked which is different as your using your own physical strength against the blow.

Hell, part one versions of Naruto sent people a ways with punches and had the physical strength to burrow a hole in the ground and reach another person in a few seconds.

Your argument only helps you if it's actually true. So unless you are saying that Hebi Sasuke while tired>Madara, you can't even make a point. And now that I look at the Manga, your comparison is completely flawed anyway. Madara kicked the shinobi, who is 2x his size let alone Deidara, who is noticeably smaller than Madara, into another group of Shinobi. Thus that's obviously not an accurate measure of how far he would've gone had nothing been there to stop his travel.

The weight difference is still null, superhuman strength isn't being explained away.

I don't have to be saying that Hebi Sasuke > Madara either, distances like that are subject to drawing/scaling error. The point is to show that their strength ins't anything special. Their base strengths are around the same if anything, strength has never been something that deviated much from character to character unless Kishi went out of his way to show that they're physically strong. Like Bee, Raikages, KCM/SM variants, Tsunade, ect. ect.

The only kind of evidence I need to provide is evidence that proves my point. As long as it does that, what kind is completely irrelevant. Physical strength all depends on body, age, and chakra potency. Madara is older than Sasuke, has a stronger body than Sasuke (and so does Sage Hashirama, and please don't try to argue that) and his chakra is far stronger than Sasuke's (and Base Naruto's). Thus logical deduction tells you that Madara's physical abilities will surpass Sasuke's regardless of you wanting to see something on panel happen.

The pure fact that Madara can block Ay's punch with zero damage or without Ay crushing his guard puts his physical abilities above Base Naruto's and Base Sasuke's. Why in the world am I even arguing whether or not Base Hashirama and Madara are superior to Base Naruto in physical ability in the first place? :lol

So your basing your entire argument on Madara blocking Ay's punch? Im gonna need more than that because its not good enough.

Madara's physical abilities have been shown on screen, and you can't show me anything that would imply or prove that either of them surpass their reincarnations. If anything, they would have a edge in speed over Naruto. That literally only going by logical deduction though, nothing proves it.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Naruto only killed Preta Path with a physical attack, and that was Frog Kata. Naruto has never annihilated any Pain with a physical attack from his physical body.

-Asura and Deva were killed by Rasengan.
-Animal and Naraka were killed by 2 Rasengan.
-Human was killed by FRS.
-Preta was killed by Frog Kata as mentioned above.

and if we want to make this comparison correct, you'd have to show me a Pain catching or blocking any of Jiraiya's kicks, because the only time SM Naruto physically overwhelmed Pain in CQC is when he kicked Deva Path both times. Jiraiya's kick blinded Human Path temporarily, but his punch was caught.

? Bruh you got me phucked up.

Other than that, Frog Kata still applies to a direct attack. His punch is enough to destroy a Pain, Deva only survived because he blocked/or is more durable.

So no, all boosts are the same. The only reason the boost is a boost is because of the power up in chakra potency. So if chakra potency levels up proportionally, it makes no sense to try and claim that the boost to their physical abilities is different. And no, Kabuto never got a bigger boost than Naruto as Senjutsu is Senjutsu. You'd have to actually show that Kabuto=Base Naruto in speed, reaction and whatnot if you wanted to claim this, and there is zero evidence of Kabuto right before getting SM being equal with Naruto right before getting Sage Mode or during any part of this Manga. And once again, wrong. Itachi parried him with a sword,

You must be registered for see links

and Kabuto was relying more on chakra scalpel.

Then Rinnegan Sasuke would have gotten such a disproportionate boost in physical abilities to RSM Naruto. They both got Senjutsu, but SM provides benefits. Which can vary.

Relying on chakra scalpel doesn't change his physical strength, Itachi would have been pushed back if there was a big boost in strength.

I don't need to prove that he was equal to base Naruto because of his feats in relation to others that would logically be on par or faster than him (in base). MS Kakashi couldn't even physically react to Sasuke's arrow yet Kabuto dodged it in ease and was keeping up with both Uchihas.

Which still doesn't matter in a straight up hand to hand fight.

It does when he can deduce things that Minato and Sasuke can't (Senjutsu working on Juubito). There was one more example but I can't think of it atm.

Baseless assumption first of all, and that's what the exchange proved. B>Ay in physical strength, but obviously Ay's punches get their power from his speed and the momentum behind his fist due to his speed, and his physical strength in combination. Same reason why v1 Ay can match V1 B's lariat and take Kisame's head off despite Base B overpowering V2 Ay later on.




How?


Whatever he did, it was far greater damage than what Lariat did to the ground when B overpowered him.



Alright.

This is basically all the same point, so itll have to wait on that scan. Ill see if I can get it tonight, but I doubt it tbh

Dat Fallout 4 gonna have me on lockdown.

 

[KidGamer65]

Gai doesn't strike faster than Madara or otherwise Madara wouldn't have been able to parry Hirudora. It was Gai's superior Taijutsu skill that allowed him to pressure Madara.

Superior Taijutsu skill is irrelevant if Madara strikes Gai faster than he can strike him. Hirudora is irrelevant because Hirudora isn't one of Gai's strikes nor is it formed and launched faster than he can punch, and please don't claim otherwise based on it being his fastest punch. Seen that one too many times.


Smh, not to mention if I used your logic and said that speed had little to do with why Gai survived against Madara, then I'd be saying that Base Gai does the same thing, because Base Gai=All other Gated Gai's in skill. The only thing that increases is his physical abilities. I.E speed.

Proof Minato's slower than any Gated Gai other than 7th? Because you won't find any.

:lol Other way around. Other way around. I'm not going to nor am I supposed to go out and disprove a claim you pulled out of thin air. The only thing Minato will ever have above Gai is Shunshin. The rest of his feats are literally nonexistent, and Shunshin has nothing to do with anything here.

If you don't like that example then heres another. KCM Naruto despite being >>>>> Base Gai in every aspect of speed was given a hard time by Obito w/ Kamui (as you pointed out) yet Gai was that had the better read because of his Taijutsu skill.

Just like Minato, Naruto's only real feats come from his movement speed and Shunshin, which literally has nothing to do with anything in Taijutsu skill. Him striking >>>>>> faster than Base Gai is a 100% baseless assumption. And that's the only kind of speed that matters offensively.

Sturdyness doesn't increase weight, nearly every time someone with decent strength landed a blow then the target was knocked away. Otherwise it was blocked which is different as your using your own physical strength against the blow.

Never said it does. :lol, and the rest isn't relevant since he was knocked away, into 3 other people where he fell.

Hell, part one versions of Naruto sent people a ways with punches and had the physical strength to burrow a hole in the ground and reach another person in a few seconds.

Different people with different settings and scenarios. Ones I can't judge because there are no scans or hints to what exactly you are talking about.

The weight difference is still null, superhuman strength isn't being explained away.

No, it's not null.

I don't have to be saying that Hebi Sasuke > Madara either, distances like that are subject to drawing/scaling error. The point is to show that their strength ins't anything special. Their base strengths are around the same if anything, strength has never been something that deviated much from character to character unless Kishi went out of his way to show that they're physically strong. Like Bee, Raikages, KCM/SM variants, Tsunade, ect. ect.

Literally based on nothing.

And no, your point doesn't prove Madara's strength isn't anything special, (which isn't even the argument so I have no idea why you keep mentioning it as being above Base Naruto doesn't require anything special) because your comparison you've drawn makes no sense.

So your basing your entire argument on Madara blocking Ay's punch? Im gonna need more than that because its not good enough.

Madara's physical abilities have been shown on screen, and you can't show me anything that would imply or prove that either of them surpass their reincarnations. If anything, they would have a edge in speed over Naruto. That literally only going by logical deduction though, nothing proves it.

No, it's plenty. Madara being able to block Ay's punch with zero damage and without a crushed guard puts his physical abilities far above Base Naruto and Base Sasuke. "It's not good enough" isn't a counter or an explanation.

If you are going to ignore the argument and reply with something that isn't even a counter, then you might as well concede this point. Madara's physical abilities have never once been shown to be inferior to Naruto or Sasuke's without any enhancements, so dismissing argumentation based on that isn't helping you here. All it does is show me your lack of a legit counter.

-Age is a factor in physical strength. Undeniable fact. Don't even try it.
-Chakra strength is a huge factor in strength. Undeniable fact. Don't even try it.
-Body is a huge factor in strength. Undeniable fact. Don't even try it.

"lol limited feats" doesn't work, nor does "nothing shows that they surpass their reincarnations" when there is evidence they do and there is none present in this Manga that'd contradict that.

? Bruh you got me phucked up.

Other than that, Frog Kata still applies to a direct attack. His punch is enough to destroy a Pain, Deva only survived because he blocked/or is more durable.

I messed up on that part. :lol Your Naruto, Jiraiya strength comparison fails simply because Naruto never did worse to any Pain with a physical attack than Jiraiya did.

-Jiraiya's kick ragdolled Human Path. Naruto's did the same to Deva.
-Naruto's punch has never been used against Pain, only Frog Kata.

So how does SM provide disproportionate boosts to strength?

Uh, no. Frog Kata does not and will never apply to a direct hit. Another baseless claim, one that is false. Frog Kata uses Nature Energy to attack. Says nothing about Naruto's physical strength. Why Deva survived Naruto's kick doesn't even matter since there is literally nothing from your side that proves Naruto's physical strength can kill Pain. Preta and Deva were the only ones subject to physical attacks, and Preta got hit by Frog Kata. And Deva survived because Naruto isn't physically strong enough to kill Pain, despite your beliefs.

You must be registered for see links

A scan of Naruto kicking (>>Punch) Deva right in the gut, and Deva survives with minor injuries. So that leaves you with the more durable point, which again, doesn't help since he's never ever killed a Pain with his physical power or has shown the capability to do so.

Then there's the fact that Jiraiya isn't a perfect Sage. Naruto is.

Then Rinnegan Sasuke would have gotten such a disproportionate boost in physical abilities to RSM Naruto. They both got Senjutsu, but SM provides benefits. Which can vary.

Sage Mode's benefits come in the form of abilities. The reason physical stats and Ninjutsu go up is because of the stronger chakra. Benefits are sensing, enhanced healing, snake abilities, etc. Not even sure how you came to the conclusion that chakra strength increasing physical abilities=Sasuke and Naruto getting disproportionate boosts.

Relying on chakra scalpel doesn't change his physical strength, Itachi would have been pushed back if there was a big boost in strength.

Already addressed, with no reply. Itachi had to use a blade and two hands to parry Kabuto's attack. Killer B's physical ability far surpasses Sasuke's, yet Sasuke was never pushed back when he blocked or clashed with his attacks. Why would Kabuto be able to push Itachi back? How did you even come to the conclusion that Kabuto would push him back anyway? Cause unless you can show that SM Kabuto's strength is capable of pushing Itachi back in that specific situation, your point won't ever work.

I don't need to prove that he was equal to base Naruto because of his feats in relation to others that would logically be on par or faster than him (in base). MS Kakashi couldn't even physically react to Sasuke's arrow yet Kabuto dodged it in ease and was keeping up with both Uchihas.

Then you are going to have to show that, because I'm not going to take your word for it. The rest of the comparison doesn't matter until you can explain or show somehow that Base Naruto is on par or faster than Kabuto, because that'd just mean that'd be Kabuto's speed after getting a boost with no relation to how Naruto performs.

It does when he can deduce things that Minato and Sasuke can't (Senjutsu working on Juubito). There was one more example but I can't think of it atm.

:lol That's clearly a bad example since:

1. Sasuke had zero knowledge of Senjutsu.
2. Minato was distracted by Obito's taunting, but this one can possibly be legit.

And once again, how is it relevant? What is there that he needs to deduce here? You keep dodging the question you need to answer.

This is basically all the same point, so itll have to wait on that scan. Ill see if I can get it tonight, but I doubt it tbh

Dat Fallout 4 gonna have me on lockdown.

Alright, I'll wait man.

 

[madvictory]

Hashirama wins due to the Buddha. They simply can't top that. Kabuto wasn't that strong and he had the location advantage (which empowered him very much). SM Naruto - well, unless PIS is allowed, he wouldn't do much here.