War arc Kakashi vs Edo Hiruzen

[Apêx1]

War arc Kakashi starts with the mask off. And, he don't say it like "he needs to activate MS" when he was with his 3 tomoe activated when the arrows were shot, the same with pain's nail. He activates it like nothing, that doesn't give Hiruzen time to do anything.

Yet when Kakasi faced Tobi, he started with his sharingan off. He wouldn't be easy on Hiruzen the third hokage:

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Ok not going to bother debating whether he'll start with his mask on or off. Kakashi does not start fights with Kamui, completely OC for him to do so. Never has and never will, so stop debating him doing it from the very instant the battle starts.

That was plot reminding us that his old ass didn't die. Speed wasn't the reason tobirama/minato couldn't get to them. But nice try though.


@ apex. Lol. Nope. He has 0 war feats at that time. It's impossible for that to be war arc.

Which matters because? When he got his feats is irrelevant since he didn't train thereafter. Sickening logic m8.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Their assault was too slow to clear up the roots. They couldn't react and get to Naruto, Hirashin was the plan, but Minato was low on chakra. Hiruzen came through in the clutch. He reacted when they couldn't and his assault was quicker than Tobiramas.

Exactly. That's the only reason they couldn't save him. Not speed or reaction. They don't have enma who's built to cut trees.

Got em.

 

[EZQ]

Ok not going to bother debating whether he'll start with his mask on or off. Kakashi does not start fights with Kamui, completely OC for him to do so. Never has and never will, so stop debating him doing it from the very instant the battle starts.

Wrong.

Everytime Kakashi was up against a stronger opponent, he decided to go Kamui off the batt

Spoiler

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Aaand i feel lazy about finding the other two:

-Kakashi trying to decapitate the Mazo
-Kakashi trying to kill the Juubi with Kamui as soon as he got Naruto's kiuuby cloack

Kakahsi starting the fight with Kamui is not out of character when he faces stronger oponents. That was only true when using kamui meant 2 weeks of hospital for him.

 

[Apêx1]

Wrong.

Everytime Kakashi was up against a stronger opponent, he decided to go Kamui off the batt

Spoiler

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You're ignoring context. 20 chapters before the Obito attempted Kamui Kakashi had attempted a regular assassination but realised it was futile

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. Kamui was his only option because he couldn't hit him regularly. There's also been tonnes of chapters of Madara not being Kamui'd by Kakashi preceding his attempt on the Gedo. He tried to Kamui the Gedo and destroy it, cool. That's like saying it's IC for Kitsuchi to start with Mountain Sandwich, Choji start in butterfly mode (all done versus Gedo) or Bijuu's to instant start with TBB because they did so versus the Gedo Mazo. And anyways, Kakashi fought tonnes of Edo's i.e. 7 swordsmen of the mist and didn't attempt Kamui on a SINGLE one of them. He didn't even Kamui the v2 Jinchuriki's, nor any of the Bijuu's faces off. So pease stop with this argument of Kamui second 1 gg. It's not how Kakashi fights, so stop trying to grant him a fighting style he doesn't utilise.

Aaand i feel lazy about finding the other two:y

-Kakashi trying to decapitate the Mazo
-Kakashi trying to kill the Juubi with Kamui as soon as he got Naruto's kiuuby cloack

Kakahsi starting the fight with Kamui is not out of character when he faces stronger oponents. That was only true when using kamui meant 2 weeks of hospital for him.

Again, different situation when talking Gedo/Juubi because everyone starts with most powerful move versus them.

 

[EZQ]

You're ignoring context. 20 chapters before the Obito attempted Kamui Kakashi had attempted a regular assassination but realised it was futile

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. Kamui was his only option because he couldn't hit him regularly. There's also been tonnes of chapters of Madara not being Kamui'd by Kakashi preceding his attempt on the Gedo. He tried to Kamui the Gedo and destroy it, cool. That's like saying it's IC for Kitsuchi to start with Mountain Sandwich, Choji start in butterfly mode (all done versus Gedo) or Bijuu's to instant start with TBB because they did so versus the Gedo Mazo. And anyways, Kakashi fought tonnes of Edo's i.e. 7 swordsmen of the mist and didn't attempt Kamui on a SINGLE one of them. He didn't even Kamui the v2 Jinchuriki's, nor any of the Bijuu's faces off. So pease stop with this argument of Kamui second 1 gg. It's not how Kakashi fights, so stop trying to grant him a fighting style he doesn't utilise.



Again, different situation when talking Gedo/Juubi because everyone starts with most powerful move versus them.

By that same logic, don't act like hiruzen is gonna use huge elemental attacks against Kakashi when it would be completely out of character of him too. (Anyways Kakashi counters with hiding like a mole).

If they're both IC, Kamui and Hiruzen's huge elemental storm which was only used when the Guguru attacked, should be the same.

So there's nothiing that makes me believe Kakashi can't survive the first 2 minutes. And of course, when he realizes he can't beat hiruzen without Kamui, he resorts to it like it was showed against tobidara.

 

[Curse Mark]

It wasn't stated that they were IC. Elemental attacks end this.

 

[Apêx1]

By that same logic, don't act like hiruzen is gonna use huge elemental attacks against Kakashi when it would be completely out of character of him too. (Anyways Kakashi counters with hiding like a mole).

If they're both IC, Kamui and Hiruzen's huge elemental storm which was only used when the Guguru attacked, should be the same.

So there's nothiing that makes me believe Kakashi can't survive the first 2 minutes. And of course, when he realizes he can't beat hiruzen without Kamui, he resorts to it like it was showed against tobidara.

But I didn't say he'll start with them? Not to mention, him using massive scale ninjutsu is NOT out of character because he's an edo with infinite chakra and has no reason to hold back on chakra. And Hiding like a Mole is barely a counter. You do realise Raiton would break right through the ground and hit Kakashi, right? That's already gg. If he tries Hiding like a Mole he's basically guaranteed his own death because he can't escape the Raiton underground. And anyways, if it's used from decently close by a (or several) shadow clones then there's no reason to believe Kakashi can use Hiding like a Mole in time, since he opted not to every time against Kakuzu. Katon isn't too fast so doing Kakashi it against that is more understandable, but saying it's a guarantee escape technique is rather beyond how it was portrayed..

It wasn't stated that they were IC. Elemental attacks end this.

VS threads are IC unless otherwise specified by OP. Otherwise character intelligence and fighting styles would be completely irrelevant.

 

[Curse Mark]

VS threads are IC unless otherwise specified by OP. Otherwise character intelligence and fighting styles would be completely irrelevant.

If OP didnt state one way or the other, we don't know. Nothing in the rules states what you said and I've never heard anyone else say that either. But hey, it helps your argument, right?

 

[Apêx1]

If OP didnt state one way or the other, we don't know. Nothing in the rules states what you said and I've never heard anyone else say that either. But hey, it helps your argument, right?

OP doesn't need to state it, it's a default. This is how a match would work in canon, so this is how it goes. The ONLY time a fight is not IC is if OP specifically states for it to not be IC. Otherwise IC will always be the case because it's the most realistic simulation of a fight. You can't just ignore intelligence because you want to. By that logic a better debater can make Naruto more intelligent then Itachi just because he can use Naruto's kit however he wants to whereas Itachi's debater uses Itachi to the shittiest and most illogical extent. IC is more of a guideline then a stipulation, if anything.

 

[EZQ]

But I didn't say he'll start with them? Not to mention, him using massive scale ninjutsu is NOT out of character because he's an edo with infinite chakra and has no reason to hold back on chakra. And Hiding like a Mole is barely a counter. You do realise Raiton would break right through the ground and hit Kakashi, right? That's already gg. If he tries Hiding like a Mole he's basically guaranteed his own death because he can't escape the Raiton underground. And anyways, if it's used from decently close by a (or several) shadow clones then there's no reason to believe Kakashi can use Hiding like a Mole in time, since he opted not to every time against Kakuzu. Katon isn't too fast so doing Kakashi it against that is more understandable, but saying it's a guarantee escape technique is rather beyond how it was portrayed..



.

The bold is only true if the angle of the attack is already low to point to the ground. If Hiruzen uses it and Kakashi is above the ground standing on the same height hiruzen is, the angle of the attack would be 0/180 , thus never hiting the ground. Once Kakashi is underground he comes out with a clone feint. Hiding like a mole is a valid counter for the first time Hiruzen strikes. Once Hiruzen realizes Kakashi goes to the ground then he can change the angle of his attack sure, but Kakashi only needs to escape the first time since:

1-Hiruzen can't locate him underground.
2-Kakashi only needs to gain 2 minutes


Tho if this is edo hiruzen he can just destroy the whole battlefied ground. I didn't consider that so Hiruzen wins.

 

[Apêx1]

The bold is only true if the angle of the attack is already low to point to the ground. If Hiruzen uses it and Kakashi is above the ground standing on the same height hiruzen is, the angle of the attack would be 0/180 , thus never hiting the ground. Once Kakashi is underground he comes out with a clone feint. Hiding like a mole is a valid counter for the first time Hiruzen strikes. Once Hiruzen realizes Kakashi goes to the ground then he can change the angle of his attack sure, but Kakashi only needs to escape the first time since:

1-Hiruzen can't locate him underground.
2-Kakashi only needs to gain 2 minutes


Tho if this is edo hiruzen he can just destroy the whole battlefied ground. I didn't consider that so Hiruzen wins.

He'd have to be point blank for it to reach such an angle. Otherwise it's a 45+ degree~ since he just needs to aim down slightly.

 

[Raykyryn]

Kakashi just copies the old man's arsenal and beats him in close combat.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

An in character hiruzen starts with shuriken kage bunshin. As shown by both of his "1v1" fights.


But hey.