What proof of there is this? Onoki did not make his statement in reference for the single use of his jutsu. He lightened the desert dust earlier which lightened nearby sand landscape extending at least to Madara's location since the sand underneath his Susanoo was lightened. When Onoki lightened turtle island, the animals and people on the island didn't get lightened.
When did he lighten the desert sand earlier? Onoki obviously lightened everything he was carrying unless you are implying Onoki can lift so many people and animals worth of weight. Onoki made five susanoo clones heavy despite being far from them. He doesn't need to directly touch what he wants to make heavy or light. It's pretty hax because without flight, Onoki can make you heavy just because you are standing on the ground.
Let's not forget, Onoki created three rock golems against Madara.
Damn this is pretty good. I saw the thread but it was so close and I have such little knowledge on the individual characters in comparison to people like Proof that I didn't even bother debating it. I disagree with your points regarding Onoki vs Gaara outside of a Desert though, you're really underrating Gaara there.
I don't think the weighed sand argument would hold. Precisely, the reason Onoki was able to lighten Garra's sand held within the gourd was because that sand is FULLY fused with his chakra. Hence, I believe Onoki lighten the chakra mass (if that's possible), not the sand itself. Onoki has weighted/lightened chakra before, Madara's susnaoo to be exact, which are nothing but chakra.
Now, if chakra is what intertwines these sand particles, no?
As we know, the sand Garra creates, isn't fully fused, as least according to Deidara. Therefore, coming in contact inferior sand (if that's what we'd call) wouldn't be very effective, seeing as only the small portion targeted would be effected. In return, he'll only create more within an instant.
This is something Garra could use to his advantage. Simply predict the only strategy Onoki has in his favor. Garra only has to himself from direct/near contact with Onoki.
Onoki has already been shown lightening the sand underneath Madara's feat and all around the vicinity of Gaara and Madara. Onoki can lighten/make heavy objects without chakra such as meteor, turtle island, etc. You should reread this thread if you want proof because I'm not posting the same scans again.
When did he lighten the desert sand earlier? Onoki obviously lightened everything he was carrying unless you are implying Onoki can lift so many people and animals worth of weight. Onoki made five susanoo clones heavy despite being far from them. He doesn't need to directly touch what he wants to make heavy or light. It's pretty hax because without flight, Onoki can make you heavy just because you are standing on the ground.
I only remember two rock golems but he got restored by Tsunade in the middle so I used pre Madara fights just for simplicity.
Onoki's statement hints that before lightening Gaara's gourd sand, he had previously put his palm to the desert floor and lightened an area of the desert around his location. When Onoki lightened Gaara's gourd, Gaara didn't get lightened yet the sand under Madara's Susanoo got lightened. And Gaara is the only medium between the gourd and the desert so it's impossible that he lightened both at the same time. I always interpreted Onoki's off panel fight against the Susanoo clones as in he tagged each Susanoo directly with his jutsu, and it makes sense because even Tsunade was able to tag individual Susanoos.
One golem shielded Onoki from magatamas, then got destroyed by Susanoo. The second one got destroyed by Flower Tree World. The third one he used to rescue Ay from the Susanoo clones.
Onoki's statement hints that before lightening Gaara's gourd sand, he had previously put his palm to the desert floor and lightened an area of the desert around his location. When Onoki lightened Gaara's gourd, Gaara didn't get lightened yet the sand under Madara's Susanoo got lightened. And Gaara is the only medium between the gourd and the desert so it's impossible that he lightened both at the same time. I always interpreted Onoki's off panel fight against the Susanoo clones as in he tagged each Susanoo directly with his jutsu, and it makes sense because even Tsunade was able to tag individual Susanoos.
I interpret that statement as Onoki saying that he made the sand around the area lighter at the same time he made the gourd sand lighter. He used the past tense because he said these words after using lightened weight technique. I'm pretty sure Onoki can choose who to lighten. Not to mention Gaara may have got lightened as well but there is no way to prove that he did or didn't.
You must be registered for see links
but he's definitely slower than them on foot so I think he did get lightened.
Onoki was no where near the Raikage when the susanoo clones were roaming around so how could he tag those susanoo clones attacking Ay? They got weighed down when they attempted to attack Ay but then Onoki used his golem and ended up weighing them down.
One golem shielded Onoki from magatamas, then got destroyed by Susanoo. The second one got destroyed by Flower Tree World. The third one he used to rescue Ay from the Susanoo clones.
I interpret that statement as Onoki saying that he made the sand around the area lighter at the same time he made the gourd sand lighter. He used the past tense because he said these words after using lightened weight technique. I'm pretty sure Onoki can choose who to lighten. Not to mention Gaara may have got lightened as well but there is no way to prove that he did or didn't.
You must be registered for see links
but he's definitely slower than them on foot so I think he did get lightened.
Onoki was no where near the Raikage when the susanoo clones were roaming around so how could he tag those susanoo clones attacking Ay? They got weighed down when they attempted to attack Ay but then Onoki used his golem and ended up weighing them down.
Those were a different 5 Susanoo clones. Onoki immobilized the Susanoo clones that were attacking him, then later rescued Raikage from a different five Susanoo clones and brought him to his location. The anime makes this clearer.
I don't think Iwa Bunshins are capable of using much of the originals power, because unlike the other Bunshin variants:
Ninjutsu - Shadow Clone Technique said:
(影分身の術, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
Users: Uzumaki Naruto, Hatake Kakashi, et al
A ninjutsu that creates a true copy of something. What makes it different from the normal "Clone Technique"* is that it creates a clone with substance, making them able to perform physical attacks. It's a high grade ninjutsu, allowing the clone to various techniques of the user. It used to be Naruto's worst skill, but nowadays it's his favourite by far. The way he uses it is also extraordinarily clever.
(木分身の術, Moku Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary
User: Yamato
The protean Wood Clone, reflecting one's whole soul!!
A clone created by altering one's own cells with chakra. It has more endurance than the normal Shadow Clone and doesn't disappear when hit by the enemies attack. Moreover, since it has the ability to merge with plants and trees, it is also great reconnaissance missions!!
[picture of the Wood Clone sprouting from Yamato's body]
↑A Clone created by using chakra and one's own cells!!
[picture of the Wood Clone pursuing Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Sai]
→The clone can also enter the battlefield on its own, being endowed with plenty of offensive and defensive power.
Iwa Bunshins databook description mentions nothing about being capable of using the originals abilities or possessing any of it's power. IIRC, they were levitating, but that's about it.
Ninjutsu - Rock Clone Technique said:
A clone technique that uses stones as an intermediary,
distinctively used by Iwa shinobi. Because the clone
possesses mass, it's hard to see through. It's a very
useful technique for infiltrations, diversions, surprise
attacks and so forth.
And it's not just Iwa Bunshins that are excluded from this, Nendo Bunshins aren't capable either:
Ninjutsu - Clay Clone Technique said:
(粘土分身, Nendo Bunshin)
Ninjutsu, Hiden, No rank, Supplementary
User: Deidara
An earthen puppet that deceives and captures!
There is no way to escape from this sticky power!!
Above all other "Bunshinjutsu*" this one has the double role of acting as a substitute and capturing the enemy. A highly convenient technique, characteristic of Deidara.
Made from clay, this clone can take attacks and capture the enemy by taking them into its own body. If "Exploding Clay" is added to the clone, it can then make itself explode, taking the enemy with it!!
[picture of Sasuke being caught by Deidara's Clay Clone]
↑An earthen puppet that shows its natural shape the instant a body goes through! While the clay changes in hardness, the enemy's arm is skilfully entwined!
@FT Good point...From what I know, not all clones can use all of the user's techniques. Iwa Bunshins like others are limited but they can use the light weighted technique and heavy weighted technique.
For example, we saw one of the rock clones using the Light weight technique when faced with Deidara and when looking for Muu. Levitation falls in the category of that technique.
Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique (土遁・軽重岩の術, Doton: Keijūgan no Jutsu)
Heading: To dance in the sky released from gravity's constraints!
The technique reduces the target's gravity. It's natural application is to enhance, naturally it's used to make the weight of the things one carries lighten, ones personal weight can also be reduced, making ones movements fast and agile. The atmosphere as well as the human body is made light, in-order to soar through the sky. On occasion, It is popular for a person to control the jutsu's flight in the sky with specific stances (heavy paraphrased, but you get it, many users control their flight with their stance), with practice one can freely fly about in the sky.
If they can use that, they should be able to use the direct opposite which is Added weight technique. There are limitations but the same usually applies to some of those other clones. I think what people are saying here is the clones can use these 2 techniques.
@FT Good point...From what I know, not all clones can use all of the user's techniques. Iwa Bunshins like others are limited but they can use the light weighted technique and heavy weighted technique.
For example, we saw one of the rock clones using the Light weight technique when faced with Deidara and when looking for Muu. Levitation falls in the category of that technique.
If they can use that, they should be able to use the direct opposite which is Added weight technique. There are limitations but the same usually applies to some of those other clones. I think what people are saying here is the clones can use these 2 techniques.
Yeah, I know Light-Weighted technique is what grants the user the ability to levitate, but the real Onoki could of used the jutsu on his clones (like Kisame used Water Prison with his Mizu Bunshins) to allow them to levitate. I'm just pointing out that the DB mentions nothing about Iwa Bunshins being capable of using jutsu, unlike the others. Which makes sense, because they showed no means of defending themselves like the other clone variants.
The reason Onoki's clone was able to fly is because the real Onoki was already lightened when he made the jutsu. When you lighten yourself, your chakra gets lightened too, so all the earth chakra that came out of his mouth to form clones was already lightened. Reason why when Onoki made 4 rock clones against Muu, they were all able to fly right off the bat.
Yeah, I know Light-Weighted technique is what grants the user the ability to levitate, but the real Onoki could of used the jutsu on his clones (like Kisame used Water Prison with his Mizu Bunshins) to allow them to levitate. I'm just pointing out that the DB mentions nothing about Iwa Bunshins being capable of using jutsu, unlike the others. Which makes sense, because they showed no means of defending themselves like the other clone variants.
Those were a different 5 Susanoo clones. Onoki immobilized the Susanoo clones that were attacking him, then later rescued Raikage from a different five Susanoo clones and brought him to his location. The anime makes this clearer.
I can agree that Onoki immobilized the susanoo clones that were fighting him but I'm pretty sure when the five susanoo clones were going to attack Ay, when their swords touched Onoki's golem, all five of the susanoos got immobilized. Those susanoos still had that same stance with which they attempted to attack Raikage with even after a
You must be registered for see links
.
And it's not just Iwa Bunshins that are excluded from this, Nendo Bunshins aren't capable either:
What do you think about Suna bunshins? They seem to be similar to Nendo bunshins in that they are used for decoys rather than attacking. However the databook claims they can be used for long ranged attacks so this leads me to believe they can control sand from long range unless you interpret this statement differently.
Databook 1 - Suna Bunshin: Show
Suna Bunshin
Black: Copying the user's form, a sand puppet.
Quote: Changing into an incarnation, the killing intent destroys the enemy!!
Picture: As it gets a backfist, the head's form changes and attempts to grab
Sasuke, trapping him!!
The sand takes Gaara's shape, becomes a Bunshin and fights. The Suna Bunshin is
different from the other types of Bunshin in that the sand does not completely
assume the form of the user, but remains as sand the entire time. That is to
say, the Bunshin's form can be changed instantly into sand, and the enemy's body
can be trapped. Its many applications with long-range attacks can have it act as
a lure and a decoy. This is where it draws the line with other Bunshin.
Nevertheless the databook doesn't state that these clones can't use techniques so you can't use this to prove that they can't use techniques. There are many times where the databook didn't explicitly claim that a certain technique could do something even though it logically can. For example, it was stated that
You must be registered for see links
but it didn't state that
You must be registered for see links
can. Also the databook claimed that
You must be registered for see links
can cut through opponents but it didn't say the same about Wind Cast Net.
Wind Cast Net Databook Entry
The Sand shinobi bring up overlapping
gusts of wind, giving birth to a net of air
currents that traps the enemy! When
used against the Ten-Tails, a large net
was cast to capture a wider range.
I'm sure there are many more examples but you should get the gist that the databook not mentioning something doesn't necessarily negate it even though it is mentioned in other databook entries for similar jutsus.
These clones have chakra as they are made out of a substance which occupies physical space. Something can't come out of nothing hence it means they obviously contain chakra. As long as clones have chakra, they should be able to use techniques if they are a perfect replica of the original which can fool others.
Also you ended up admitting that rock clones can't use much of the user's powers which I agree with.
Your original thought actually agrees with my notion that rock clones can't use large scale weighted/lightened weight tech as well as jinton. So they can't use much of the original's power.
Haven't read the rest of this, but I believe Gaara>Onoki. Perhaps, I'll rebuttal the rest later.
Okay I'll assume Onoki's rock clones can't use any technique. This is manga intel so Gaara doesn't know this so he'll be too focussed on evading all of Onoki's rock clones leaving him on the defensive and unable to go on the offensive lest he loses focus. This increases the difficulty to very high but Onoki can still probably win unless he starts getting back problems. Onoki could leave a clone farther away which Gaara could assume is the real Onoki so Gaara can get tricked into thinking he's going after the original Onoki even though the original Onoki is actually nearby and can launch a surprise attack on Gaara
You must be registered for see links
.
Also Onoki can use jinton while having a clone of his carry him so that Gaara can't simply stop jinton by attacking the stationary Onoki with sand because the clone can still fly away from the sand long enough for Onoki to prep jinton and kill Gaara. Deidara was very terrified when Onoki started prepping jinton and
You must be registered for see links
so I doubt Gaara can dodge jinton especially when he could be distracted by a bunch of clones.
You must be registered for see links
so I doubt a few clones can deter Onoki from taking out all or most of his targets especially when
You must be registered for see links
, it destroyed many trees. Not to mention that if Gaara tries to fly out of range, Onoki's clone can still fly towards Gaara hence Gaara won't be able to escape jinton's range.
