Fair enough, I do understand the temptation to just keep writing in an official debate. Just that when you're not the one debating you can be surprised by the amount of text a single post has.
Here’s my judgement people. YOU BETTER READ IT ALL
First argument: Minato placing Kunais.
KG on his first post stated that Minato starts the fight spreading kunai on the battlefield. Zexion quoted this and said that in a crater, all the kunais would be at the same level (probably suggesting that this way Nagato can take all of them out since they’re all at the same level). KG stated that it isn’t relevant since Minato can run on walls, throw kunais over the hill, the toads can jump higher than the level of the crater, thus, minato can spread kunais on different levels of height. Also minato has a marking on his Hokage statue.
Well on my point of view, I’m truly convinced that Minato placing Kunai’s on different levels is easely performed, since all of Zexion’s counters to this move are impossible to apply due to the starting distance. Nagato can’t stop Minato from summoning the frogs and jumping above the walls, or using his marking on the hokage face etc… Anyways this point is moot since the Hokage mountain is marked. KG won here but I must aknowledge that he himself said minato “starts” the fight like this (and posted minato’s scan), which at the end is not entirely true since he needs to start the fight via summoning, or approaching the walls, or jumping, or teleporting to the hokage face and then move to place the markings (since I don’t think he has enough arm to reach tactical spots of the battlefield above his carved face on the mountain). Anyways minato doesn’t “start” by throwing the kunai, giving Nagato time to at least try something. Let’s see how this plays below.
Also KG I’m surprised you didn’t use kage bunshin here.
Second argument: Asura path
As for asura path’s explosives missiles and that kind of attacks I think it was pretty clear from the beginning that this is not dangerous for the duo since Minato dogdes/teleports away/Itachi tanks with susano. Zexion later stated that Asura path’s function here is more for defensive purposes like creating more faces/arms and giving Nagato’s body more durability, which I agree.
The most important function of ashura path here is to allow nagato to use Fuuton against in coming Kunai’s from Minato. Since part of KG’s argument was that if Nagato wastes shinra tensei on incoming kunais then the duo makes a good use of the cool down to take Nagato down. As I see in the arguments, the one that convinced me more was Zexion. KG said that Nagato can’t cover from all angles but there’s also no proof Itachi and Minato can toss kunais from all angles either. And Nagato using futon from 3 different faces wich each one would cover a good area when close to nagato himself (following the water example). Nagato can make his arms longer and he can make the front arms make the seals with the side arms to solve the problem of the oneso n the sides being too far apart to make the hand seals.
Nagato being able to blow away kunais with futon is a really good advantage for Nagato, and I think it’s a viable counter. BUT I must say this also depends on Nagato’s reaction speed and striking speed (for making the jutsu). Since as KG stated, Minato and Itachi can out maneouver the kunais or teleport and toss them again against Nagato, who is most likely not reacting to that. KG won there. Zexion’s example of Konan’s paper shuriken is not good since Konan was coordinating that attack with Nagato, so there’s no proof Nagato’s futon would outspeed Itachi’s and Minato’s projectiles which can be re-tossed and outmaneouvered thanks to itachi’s skills.
So futon is a viable counter since Nagato can cover a good area with 3 different faces and 6 arms, but his speed performing that is probably not enough to keep deflecting Kunais coming from a shurikenjutsu expert as Itachi. Lets see how this plays out later on Nagato’s reaction speed arguments.
I almost forgot: Zexion stated that Asura’s laser could be used to destroy Minato’s FTG kunais, which I don’t agree since Kunais are more dense than building materials, so that laser destroying buildings with a huge AoE doesn’t talk much about its concentrated power. I do agree that it could be useful anyways to disperse the kunais around the battlefield so Minato loses his tactical placements on the kunais, but destroying them is not possible.
And Asura path’s are not “homing”. I’d say that due to feats they can be some kind of guided missiles, but not as precise as homing missiles. And as was refered above by zexion, they can be used to keep pressuring Minato or Itachi, but I disagree on them needing FTG to do so, since KG explained well that they’re not “homing” so they can be side stepped.
Third argument: Preta path
KG stated that Nagato’s preta path is only useful against Itachi since his main force susano is made of chakra, and that Nagato must stand close to him to absorb chakra from it, allowing Minato to teleport right where Nagato is and make a FTG blitz (tough I disagree that it could be performed with a kunai if Nagato reinforces his body with asura path). I agree with the statement KG made here since Minato has a marking on Itachi’s body, so if Nagato gets close to Itachi to absorb his Susano, then he’d be putting himself too close to a FTG marking.
Tough Zexion made a good point in stating that Nagato can use preta path while moving and even perform other techniques at the same time, allowing him to absorb itachi’s susano while he’s still moving (I guess running around susano) making it more difficult for Minato to blitz. This tactic is almost imposible since to perform this Nagato should: Absorb Itachi’s susano while dodging Itachi’s attacks himself and keeping his guard up for any incoming FTG blitz while he makes this all running or moving to avoid a speedblitz. So Nagato absorbing susano is out of the question
Nagato using shinra tensei to blow Itachi and Minato back is not possible either. Nagato can decide to blow away Itachi before Minato teleports next to him, but that would mean stop absorbing his susano. So this tactic would only save him from the mess he had already got in by getting close to itachi
So KG won here. Preta path can only be used for Magatama’s or other attacks. But not for absorbing Susano. Also, if Nagato camps under the preta orb, he nullifies the rasengan blitz, that’s true, and the kunai blitz won’t kill him either. But then KG stated wonderfully that if Nagato camps under preta orb, Minato just marks him (instead of attacking with rasengan). This is definitely a GG.
So minato can throw a kunai and teleport (if its not deflected by the wind) and if he reaches Nagato’s back, he simply marks him instead of attacking, rendering Nagato’s absortion useless.
Fourth argument: Animal path
Well on this argument zexion convinced me the most. He killed me with “Do the summons want to be target practice or....?” lol. I think KG definitely underestimated the situation with all the summons in the field, since Itachi is not taking all of them, as Zexion stated, they’re not just staying still as they see Cerberus die. The crab blocking the LoS is a good argument to protect the other summons while they move around. Since at first stated, Kabuto’s control over the summoning shouldn’t be as good as nagato’s, and as stated later, Nagato can summon more. KG countered all of them 1 by 1 saying how itachi takes them down, but he failed to see that if Nagato summons all of them, he has to attack one of them first, allowing for example the bird to fly away and the other ones to attack. If Itachi attacks Cerbeus he loses a lot of chakra and the bird already flew away, and if he attacks the bird first he lets his guard open to other summons attacks. If Itachi wants to defend from the summoning then he can’t attack all of them, since that would be suicide. Blocking the summoning’s LoS with kunai was situational since Nagato (kabuto) was facing KM naruto + Bee + Itachi at the same time so was too distracted to notice their summons being foderizzed with Kunai. He didn’t even bother to protect them like this time he’d do with the crab and multitask itachi. So itachi is definitely not taking the summons away like he did against edo nagato tough I must say is not too relevant to the fight since the summonins can’t hurt Itachi (unless he’s lowering his guard to take them one by one) and Minato. They could work as distractions to prepare a CST or CT maybe, let’s see how that plays out
Fifth argument: Deva path
As first correctly stated by KG bansho tenin is suicide for Nagato, since he’d be literally inviting Itachi and Minato to throw a kunai at him and take advantage of the cooldown. Minato can teleport inside Itachi’s susano to be protected or teleport away. Zexion’s counters about movement not being possible during Bansho tennin are incorrect since Kakashi canonically did so. Nagato increasing its force could mean that movement is even more restrained than before, but Minato just teleports away to a safe location if he can’t move like Kakashi did. If Nagato uses BT to attract susano into preta then KG’s first counter applies, Nagato would just be putting himself too close to a FTG marking.
About shinra tensei, Zexion convinced me more on the Yata mirror argument. It isn’t deflecting a change of gravity, thus shinra tensei blows away Susano as a whole. Taking advantage of the cooldown would be hard since Nagato can blow away kunais with wind, and if they’re re-tossed then Nagato uses shinra tensei to blow away any near markings and kunais, good job there zexion.
I do agree with KidGamer that Nagato can’t react to a Hiraishin blitz, but, to put it simple, he can react to the incoming Kunais. If Nagato makes a good use of his Shinra tensei he can keep all of Minato’s kunais far away from him, and Itachi (who is also a FTG marking) would get blown away too since YM is not repeling gravity force.
Minato and Itachi coming back from being pushed away and attack on the cooldown would mean that they have to overcome the force, get straight, and launch another Kunai, which can be this time repelled by futon or as Zexion well explained Nagato can take flight with Asura path’s abilitiy rendering a blitz almost imposible.
So good job there zexion I feel you made a better job on that point.
I do agree with KG that unless the target hits the ground, no major damage is done with shinra tensei. The kage bunshin examples are clear enough, so Nagato’s regular shinra tensei would work more of a defence to keep itachi, minato and the kunais far away from him, but it wouldn’t work as an attack. The chances of Minato and Itachi landing a strike during the cooldown would decrease a lot thanks to wind reflection or flight.
Sixth argument: CST
KG first stated that when Nagato uses CST, Minato reacts and takes away himself and Itachi before they get hit by the repelling force. He explained it like this:
1- If nagato uses full force CST concentrated on one point (thus more destructive but less AoE) then Minato takes Itachi to one of the spread Kunais and they’re safe.
2- If nagato uses wide spread CST to nullify the FTG markings to escape, then the force of this CST would be lower, thus it can be tanked via Itachi’s susano.
I must say I don’t agree fully with this since KG made fair points, but ignored that there could be an inbetween point between full force CST and wide spread CST as Zexion stated later. Nagato could use a CST wide enough to whipe all of Minato’s markings but smaller than the one used on Konoha, thus not losing so much power. Good job there zexion. Anyways there’s no proof that an inbetween point is strong enough to put down susano, so this point is hanging lose.
I agree with Kidgamer that teleporting inside susano is a fair counter to CST. Thus I still don’t agree with Yata mirror being able to deflect susano away. And remember Itachi has only shown to use Yata with his v4 susano which drains a lot chakra from him. Anyways, CST is tanked moderate damage inside Susano or if it is concentrated then they escape to a FTG marking.
Almost forgot: Zexion was right when he stated that minato needs to change to sensing mode to see CST coming. So Minato sensing it is out of the question. He could see it coming when he sees the ground getting crushed by the force, dough if it’s made from close range it’d be hard to react to, but Minato’s reflexes are enough.
Seventh argument: Chibaku Tensei
KG stated in his opener that Minato places a kunai out of the range of CT as soon as the battle starts. Thus when Nagato activates CT minato teleports inside Itachi’s susano, so they don’t get crushed by it, and once the jutsu is done, they teleport out. I disagree with the following:
1- Putting a kunai out of the range of CT is not a good tactic since with all the shinra tenseis or bansho tenins and explosions used, the tactical place of the kunais can be easely changed as the battle proceeds, so minato can’t rely on that. His Kunai could be changed inside the range of CT at any moment with so many gravitational changes. Any ways, Minato’s marking on the hokage face works.
2- I don’t agree on any version below v3 susano is able to whistand the pressure of CT, and Itachi’s low stamina (zexion was right on the stamina issue by the way) won’t allow him to use so much susano on this battle. KG you overestimated a little Itachi’s ability to keep up susano. Thus I guess this is the problem of using “healthy” itachi since he’s fanfic and its imposible to calculate his stamina. That’s why I would have suggested edo itachi with regen restricted.
This argument goes half to zexion and half to KG since the CT argument was let lose after the first 3 posts. You just stopped arguing about it and I stopped finding valid counters, you just started flaming each other’s logic and didn’t put more effort into this point, which I think was a battle ender, so this stays like:
*Minato can escape to the hokage face marking if Itachi’s susano is able to whistand CT.
How the battle would go using these arguments
Minato and Itachi would work together trying to put a kunai near Nagato, once this is performed, Minato uses Hirashin blitz and the battle ends, since Nagato can’t react. To counter this, Nagato uses Asura path to have a 360 field vision and repel the kunais with the wind jutsu, also, he has shinra tensei to blow away the kunais and Itachi who is a marking himself (and Yata can’t repel shinra tensei). If the kunais and Itachi are tossed away via shinra tensei, the duo would have a hard time trying to overcome ST fast enough to be able to take advantage of the cool down, which is too short and the possibilities of a blitz would decrease a lot if Nagato uses Asura path’s rockets to gain speed and get even further. Any incoming Kunai during the cooldown gets tossed away with wind.
The moment the duo gets a chance is when:
1- Itachi enters close combat: Since if Itachi gets close to Nagato, and Minato teleports, Nagato won’t be able to react.
2- If they’re able to overwhelm Nagato with shurikenjutsu, and they’re able to overcome his wind jutsu and leave a kunai near him, so they can teleport during the cooldown if Nagato uses ST to repel them away.
So Nagato keeping his distance is a key for surviving which would be very hard considering Itachi and Minato are both pretty fast. That’s were the usage of the summoning comes handful, since taking all the summonings is almost impossible as Zexion stated since if they all attack at the same time Itachi would be overwhelmed being forced to use Susano (which drains a lot of chakra) and he’s no way taking down all the summons with amaterasu either.
CST is effectively countered by the duo and CT is kind of iffy. I’m leaning more towards the fact that if nagato manages to perform CT he wins the battle (not counting the marking on the hokage mountain), but this is not totally confirmed since the duo has a lot of chances of taking Minato down before this happens, and ofc, the marking on the hokage face is a key for surviving CT.
The duo has chances of winning by:
-Getting close to Nagato pressuring with Susano, then Minato teleports, GG.
-Overwhelming Minato’s reaction speed with shurikenjutsu, putting a marking behind him and take advantage of ST’s cooldown
Nagato has chances of winning by:
-Crushing Minato if Itachi worns out after not being able to maintain susano (which KG used as a key in almost every counter he made)
-Making sure all the markings are in the range of CT by the time he uses it so there’s no escaping and Itachi tanking with susano is only viable if he can use v3 or v4
VEREDICT:
Due to the conditions of the match I see the duo taking this more times than not, but the difference is so small that I’d have to gives this to both.
How do you call this, a tie? Stalemate? It’s the same. You both won. None of you won.
Ciao. Enjoy
APOLOGIES
Due to this debate being so long, i didn't read a very important part of it (believe me i tried to read all of it, i don't know how that happened).
There's an argument on KG'S favour that i skept, and it changes my veredict towards his favor. I don't know if that's allowed. Sorry it was a mistake.
The argument was about Minato having a kunai outside of the village which allows him to escape CT since it would never be on Nagato's range.
1. KN6 took the pressure of CT unharmed, And is not more durable (or even as durable) than V3 or V4 w/ Yata. Kabuto was ready to transport KCM Naruto and Killer B via CT so he could capture them (Not kill them)
2. Yata has been
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to be used with V3.
3. If markings are out of CT's range, there is no way that the battle would change said positions when the battle cannot be that large scaled as it is out of the range of Nagato's largest scaled jutsu.
1. KN6 took the pressure of CT unharmed, And is not more durable (or even as durable) than V3 or V4 w/ Yata. Kabuto was ready to transport KCM Naruto and Killer B via CT so he could capture them (Not kill them)
2. Yata has been
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to be used with V3.
3. If markings are out of CT's range, there is no way that the battle would change said positions when the battle cannot be that large scaled as it is out of the range of Nagato's largest scaled jutsu.
1- Nagato's CT is stated to be > Pain's since Nagato >> Pain (and if edo nagato's CT didn't have killing intent then there's no need to refer to that point again)
2- You're right. That's why i said v3 can tank CT
3- It doesn't matter if CT is more scaled. If Nagato moves positions from his initial position for any motive, he could be a lot closer (ot further) to said marking. So putting a kunai out of the range of any of nagato's techniques is almost impossible, since it depends on where Nagato is standing when he performs it.
Anyways is just my point of view of how things could happen (based on the arguments you gave). So at the end of the day, i'm just another debater of this thread.
Lol, EZQ have you ever judged a debate and chosen a winner or do you end them all as draws? Feels like you're afraid to choose a winner because you don't want to hurt any feels and just end them as draws. There's an obvious winner here imo.
Lol, EZQ have you ever judged a debate and chosen a winner or do you end them all as draws? Feels like you're afraid to choose a winner because you don't want to hurt any feels and just end them as draws. There's an obvious winner here imo.
lol. I've judged 6 debates and 2 of them were draws.
The difference here is too small to give the victory to one of them (doesn't matter who). If you don't agree with my judgement is because you see the arguments given a different way. Read the "how the battle would go" spoiler tag and that's what i get from these argument. Enough to give a victory to one of them? Not in my opinion. And i'm not affraid to give the victory to anyone, i've debated with both zexion and KG both and i'm not affraid to show them my points of view.
1- Nagato's CT is stated to be > Pain's since Nagato >> Pain (and if edo nagato's CT didn't have killing intent then there's no need to refer to that point again)
2- You're right. That's why i said v3 can tank CT
3- It doesn't matter if CT is more scaled. If Nagato moves positions from his initial position for any motive, he could be a lot closer (ot further) to said marking. So putting a kunai out of the range of any of nagato's techniques is almost impossible, since it depends on where Nagato is standing when he performs it.
Anyways is just my point of view of how things could happen (based on the arguments you gave). So at the end of the day, i'm just another debater of this thread.
Then saying "if" they survive CT like it would matter doesn't make sense when it can't get past V3 or V4. :| Using stamina as an excuse doesn't work either since this battle doesn't last long enough for him to die of chakra constraints (my posts already showed that he outlasted Sasuke despite him spamming MS) when he's healthy. (So why are you saying he has low stamina)
Then there's the fact that you say I overused Susanoo when me mentioning it for multiple points doesn't show that he'll die from using it when:
-He's healthy.
-The points where they were used involved CST and CT only. Other than that it was just him briefly having it up to tank attacks. And Preta Path.
And that is all depending on how the debater (not the judge) judges how Nagato acts, and none of Zex's arguments involve Nagato moving to a position where his attacks can disrupt the markings even if it were possible due to the fact that Nagato would literally have to leave the village first.
lol. I've judged 6 debates and 2 of them were draws.
The difference here is too small to give the victory to one of them (doesn't matter who). If you don't agree with my judgement is because you see the arguments given a different way. Read the "how the battle would go" spoiler tag and that's what i get from these argument. Enough to give a victory to one of them? Not in my opinion. And i'm not affraid to give the victory to anyone, i've debated with both zexion and KG both and i'm not affraid to show them my points of view.
Then saying "if" they survive CT like it would matter doesn't make sense when it can't get past V3 or V4. Using stamina as an excuse doesn't work either since this battle doesn't last long enough for him to die of chakra constraints (my posts already showed that he outlasted Sasuke despite him spamming MS) when he's healthy. (So why are you saying he has low stamina)
Itachi has 2.5 in stamina on the databook. Him being healthy means he has as much stamina as his edo self?
It doesn't need to reach the point where Itachi dies. If he can't hold v3 anymore his shield becomes a lot less useful.
Then there's the fact that you say I overused Susanoo when me mentioning it for multiple points doesn't show that he'll die from using it when:
-He's healthy.
-The points where they were used involved CST and CT only. Other than that it was just him briefly having it up to tank attacks.
Being healthy is a moot point, imposible to calculate. I used an inbetween state and took sasuke as an example. Susano drains MS users, healthy or not.
You used it for CT ST CST and BT
And that is all depending on how the debater (not the judge) judges how Nagato acts, and none of Zex's arguments involve Nagato moving to a position where his attacks can disrupt the markings even if it were possible due to the fact that Nagato would literally have to leave the village first.
Zexion adressed Nagato moving using Asura path and levitation several times. The area affected of his attacks would change. Minato putting a kunai out of the village when the battlefield is konoha crater is him leaving the village first.
Itachi has 2.5 in stamina on the databook. Him being healthy means he has as much stamina as his edo self?
Being healthy is a moot point, imposible to calculate. I used an inbetween state and took sasuke as an example. Susano drains MS users, healthy or not.
You used it for CT ST CST and BT
Zexion adressed Nagato moving using Asura path and levitation several times. The area affected of his attacks would change. Minato putting a kunai out of the village when the battlefield is konoha crater is him leaving the village first.
No, him being healthy means that his stamina won't be 2.5. Him being healthy (you can't disregard it because you feel like it, not to mention approximates can be made) means he has Sasuke level stamina at least since he was capable of outlasting said Sasuke when it came to chakra (something I already mentioned). (Chakra is created by converting from Stamina)
And let's calculate how long it takes for those things to be countered:
-BT, a few seconds.
-ST, a few seconds. Something that Zex also didn't have Nagato spam in the debate.
-CT, a few seconds.
-CST, a few seconds.
:| So Itachi dies within a minute or so? When he held Susanoo up for 5 minutes in it's highest and second highest level after spamming MS (Already mentioned in my posts) I appreciate the judgement, but if there are glaring flaws like this they have to be called out.
And you do know that he only said that he levitates in the air, not that he levitates in the air and goes around and destroying the markings, right? BFR is defined as loss by leaving the battlefield and being unable to return. Unless you think levitation lets Nagato hit markings outside of the village, your line of thinking is wrong. Then there's the fact that you already agreed that his Kunai can't be destroyed, so tbh I'm not even sure how you are suggesting any of this "displaces Kunai" stuff.
No, him being healthy means that his stamina won't be 2.5. Him being healthy (you can't disregard it because you feel like it, not to mention approximates can be made) means he has Sasuke level stamina at least since he was capable of outlasting said Sasuke when it came to chakra (something I already mentioned). (Chakra is created by converting from Stamina)
And let's calculate how long it takes for those things to be countered:
-BT, a few seconds.
-ST, a few seconds. Something that Zex also didn't have Nagato spam in the debate.
-CT, a few seconds.
-CST, a few seconds.
:| So Itachi dies within a minute or so? When he held Susanoo up for 5 minutes in it's highest and second highest level after spamming MS (Already mentioned in my posts) I appreciate the judgement, but if there are glaring flaws like this they have to be called out.
And you do know that he only said that he levitates in the air, not that he levitates in the air and goes around and destroying the markings, right? BFR is defined as loss by leaving the battlefield and being unable to return. Unless you think levitation lets Nagato hit markings outside of the village, your line of thinking is wrong. Then there's the fact that you already agreed that his Kunai can't be destroyed, so tbh I'm not even sure how you are suggesting any of this "displaces Kunai" stuff.
1- I see your point on the susano thing. I didn't see Itachi calculating exactly when to put up susano and when to deactivate in order to save chakra. Once activated its held activated, since Itachi can't predict when to activate it in order to survive every attack. He putting it up and down everytime Nagato attacks just didn't cross my mind at the moment i made my veredict.
2-"And you do know that he only said that he levitates in the air, not that he levitates in the air and goes around and destroying the markings, right? BFR is defined as loss by leaving the battlefield and being unable to return. Unless you think levitation lets Nagato hit markings outside of the village, your line of thinking is wrong. Then there's the fact that you already agreed that his Kunai can't be destroyed, so tbh I'm not even sure how you are suggesting any of this "displaces Kunai" stuff."
1- He combined levitation + asura path to make a flight argument. Read that again
2- Never stated destroying the markings. If Nagato does what zexion stated (to avoid a speedblitz during the cooldown) his position already changed. Then the battle proceeds according to your arguments (both) and now the outside kunai could be inside CT's range
3- I never stated Nagato destroys the kunais. The gravitatinal pulls our pushes could change the kunais positions, and nagato's change of position could put any of those kunais inside the huge range again. Nagato not being able to break kunais =/= Nagato not being able to a-move them b-get them inside his range of attacks.
In your argument you never mentioned Minato throwing a kunai outside of the village. If you did and i missed it, then my veredict should change (if that's possible)
Itachi already saw it. Second of all, he doesn't need to know exactly how large it is to place a marking far away enough from the village to give him the chance to escape. Not even sure how the bold makes sense when forcing him to retreat backwards only lets him set the marking where he needs to set it as his goal is to get away from the battlefield, not towards Nagato.
That is something that was never suggested in the debate. So why judge based off of that premise? How he would move them is also a completely different story.
The kunais being on range? I already said if the kunai is out of the village then it's irrelevant if Nagato moves. If nagato flies then the range of his attacks changes and something that was previously out of his range can be in his range (what are you arguing here?)
3.
That is something that was never suggested in the debate. So why judge based off of that premise? How he would move them is also a completely different story.
