In Depth Analysis on Gaara VS Onoki

After reading this thread, did your opinion change?

  • Now I agree that Onoki beats Gaara

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I actually think this is an easier fight for Gaara than before

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14

Icelerate

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
9,255
Kin
37💸
Kumi
30💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Location: Desert where Edo kages fought Gaara and Onoki
Starting Distance: 30 m
Intel: Manga

Establishing Onoki's clones' capabilities

Establishing why doton clones can use ninjutsu
Doton clones don't have any feats in regards to using ninjutsu but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of doing so. We've only seen Onoki make doton clones once and then the rest of the fight where the doton clones were involved was off panelled so we can't conclude that doton clones can't use ninjutsu due to their limited screen time. We can, however, infer that doton clones can use ninjutsu because other elemental clones such as , and raiton clones ( )( ) have been shown to use ninjutsu so it stands to reason doton clones can also use ninjutsu.

The only road block that the doton clones might have is the lack of chakra to use ninjutsu but using lightened/weighted rock technique on a small scale barely requires much chakra. Proof of this is that the real Onoki can lighten massive objects like a or , both of which are much larger than than the . Doton clones may only have a fraction of the real Onoki's power/chakra but it stands to reason they can make much much smaller objects like gourd sand, Suna bunshins and the real Gaara heavy with utmost ease.

Establishing that the flight speed of Onoki's doton clones is on par with the original's
You might argue that Onoki's doton clones will also be much slower than the real Onoki due to having a lot less chakra than the real one but this is wrong as it doesn't require any chakra to move unlike Gaara controlling sand. As the databook entry below shows, making poses/stances is enough to allow a weightless character to fly so it has nothing to do with chakra.

Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique (土遁・軽重岩の術, Doton: Keijūgan no Jutsu)

Heading: To dance in the sky released from gravity's constraints!

Classification: Ninjutsu
Rank: B-Rank
Class: Offensive, Supplementary
Range: Short-Range
User(s): Ōnoki

The technique reduces the target's gravity. It's natural application is to enhance, naturally it's used to make the weight of the things one carries lighten, ones personal weight can also be reduced, making ones movements fast and agile. The atmosphere as well as the human body is made light, in-order to soar through the sky. On occasion, It is popular for a person to control the jutsu's flight in the sky with specific stances (heavy paraphrased, but you get it, many users control their flight with their stance), with practice one can freely fly about in the sky.

→ Touching the target in an instant their gravity is taken away. The technique user regulates how much (gravity) is snatched away.

↓ The sensation of soaring through the sky is extraordinarily pleasant. . . can't make out the rest due to unknown Katakana word.

You must be registered for see images



Onoki doesn't need to be directly touching his target to increase/decrease their weight
Onoki made Gaara's gourd sand as well as surrounding desert sand ( ) that Gaara is standing on heavy by touching Gaara's gourd ( ). This goes to show that Onoki can make different objects heavy by touching just one as long as they are interconnected. This means that if Onoki or his clones lay a hand on Gaara's sand that he is flying on, Gaara himself gets weighed down which spells his end considering his heart won't be able to pump that massive blood around. Not only that but Gaara can't stand upright and will fall down flat thus being unable to continue fighting.

Onoki's chakra reserves
Contrary to popular belief, Onoki's chakra reserves are pretty good. Onoki used and then used it a few more times afterwards off panel ( ). Afterwards, Onoki used which . After running out of chakra to use jinton, Onoki used . Finally Onoki ended up making the first meteor Madara summoned light enough for him to carry ( )( ). Also it is important to note that Onoki doesn't have to maintain weighted or lightened rock technique because he can remove/increase the target's weight and .

Countering Gaara's Moveset

Basic sand attacks
Deidara has shown to be able to dodge Gaara's basic sand attacks ( )( ) as well as Joki Boi. and has advantages over Deidara and Joki Boi in terms of being able to dodge attacks. Deidara's bird is larger than himself who is larger than Onoki so Onoki will have an easier time dodging sand because he's a smaller/less bulkier target. Joki Boi is restricted in terms of moving about the battlefield due to lacking the ability to fly which means boxing Onoki in is much harder than boxing in Joki Boi.

Suna Arare
whereas . This means Onoki and his clones should also be able to do the same considering they both use the same jutsu as Mu to take flight.

Sand Tsunamis
While sand tsunamis have a great AoE, regular sand speed is inferior to Onoki and his clones so he'll be able to outrun it by moving in the same direction as the sand tsunami. Rock clones can be sent to weigh down all that sand rendering it useless.

Desert Prison
This jutsu is much faster than basic sand attacks as it whereas his basic sand attacks were dodged. As a precaution, Onoki will create two clones around him to watch his blind spot and then use those clones to weigh down any incoming sand.

Sandstorm
Gaara hasn't showed a jutsu but this is actually a potentially dangerous strategy which is completely plausible given Gaara's ability to mould sand however he wants. Using sensor sand, Gaara actually managed to . This would serve to block Onoki's LoS whereas Gaara still has his sand sensing to detect targets inside and his third eye to detect Onoki outside the sandstorm.

Onoki has proven to be at least as fast as most of Gaara's sand attacks and spreading out sand in all directions will obviously be much slower than single direction sand attacks considering spreading out sand over a wide AoE requires much more effort so Onoki and his clones can escape the AoE of the sandstorm. The only problem is that Onoki can't track Gaara so if Gaara surrounds himself with a sandstorm, Onoki can't do anything to Gaara. Regardless, merely flying around the battlefield doesn't require chakra whereas utilizing a sand storm will. Eventually Gaara will get outlasted if he tries to stay on the defensive like this.

How Onoki will beat Gaara​

How the fight will start
As soon as the fight starts, Onoki will take flight and make six doton clones. In this amount of time, Gaara will take out the sand from his gourd and also take flight. Gaara will utilize his faster gourd sand to keep himself moving fast while using the sand from the desert to pressure Onoki and his clones.

How it will progress
Onoki will send four of his rock clones towards Gaara in a bid to make contact with Gaara or his gourd sand. The other two clones will guard Onoki's blindspots. Once any of Onoki's clones are able to apply weighted rock technique, Gaara will be immobilized, which will render him unable to move and fall flat down. His body in its entirety will be too heavy for it to maintain itself and Gaara will die due to his heart not being able to pump that extremely heavy blood. Gaara knows that he mustn't let Onoki or his clones to touch Gaara or his sand so Gaara will constantly keep his distance, make Suna bunshins to confuse Onoki and a desert storm to prevent any rock clone from getting close. Suna bunshins can be sent to attack Onoki but they won't be a match for the clones who will end up blitzing them, let alone the real Onoki. Suna bunshins' ability to control sand should be far weaker than the real Gaara's so their sand will be way too slow to do anything. It is unlikely that the real Gaara can keep himself afloat, maintain a desert storm around him, focus on with his third eye and still be able to utilize worthwhile sand techs to pressure Onoki who'll counter whatever Gaara throws at him via weighted rock technique which barely requires any chakra considering even after running out of chakra to use jinton, Onoki could still lighten a massive meteor. Onoki won't be using jinton in this fight so he'll actually be able to outlast Gaara despite Gaara having much larger chakra reserves because Gaara will have to use multiple large scale sand techs while all Onoki has to do is fly around and utilize weighted rock technique when necessary.

What about a non desert location?
In a non desert location, this is a low-mid difficulty stomp in Onoki's favour considering Gaara needs to use his gourd sand to make additional sand as shown in the Jutsu tag below. Onoki will apply too much pressure on Gaara who won't have enough sand to do much of anything. Tagging one fast fighter target is already not easy especially with just gourd sand but multiple fast targets will be too much and Gaara won't even be able to go on the offensive. The only logical conclusion is that Gaara will end up getting boxed in by Onoki's four doton clones sooner than later. Only one needs to tag Gaara to defeat him. Utilising Suna bunshin feints lets the fight drag on for longer but , it'll only serve to decrease the quantity of sand available for Gaara to use. Onoki's clones deal with them and then follow up on Gaara.

Databook 2 - Ryuusa Bakuryuu:
NINJUTSU; Ryuusa Bakuryuu (Desert Quicksand Cascading Stream*)
User: Gaara
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

From the sand he is himself carrying, he grinds the rocks and minerals from underground into an homogenous sea of sand and manipulates it like a tsunami that engulfs absolutely all things in his line of sight!! This jutsu is for no one except Gaara, who lives up to his "Of the Desert*" namesake. This raging sea deals a lot of damage by itself, but one can further take advantage of the sand for a second and a third consecutive assault! That sublime succession of sand attacks has this jutsu as its starting point!!

Captions

-Causing the atmosphere to quake and the ground to rumble, the surging sea of sand swallows everything whole.

-Raging waves, surging billows.

Picture comments

-"As long as I have sand... I can do anything." True to his word, he displays a jutsu well beyond the imaginable!!

-The billow of sand engulfs the enemy and a large portion of the landscape altogether, creating a vast sandy wasteland.
*"Ryuusa"="quicksand". Add a little pun on "sabaku", and you turn the "desert" into a "cascade of sand". So Gaara is actually "Gaara of the Desert's Cascading Sand".
 
Last edited:

Izanamı.

Active member
Regular
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
1,724
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
I just skimmed through it. Also I think you should add, that if Onoki ever gets in a bind (doubtful) he can petrify and extremely increase the weight causing the sand around to drop from his body. Good thread Ice.
 

Icelerate

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
9,255
Kin
37💸
Kumi
30💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I just skimmed through it. Also you should add, that if Onoki ever gets in a bind (doubtful) he can petrify and extremely increase the weight causing the sand around to drop from his body. Good thread Ice.
So Onoki doesn't even need to directly touch the sand with his hands? Sweet! But there is a chance that Gaara could still control the sand albeit much much slower but this doesn't matter because Onoki would be trapped, unable to breakout.
 

Izanamı.

Active member
Regular
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
1,724
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
So Onoki doesn't even need to directly touch the sand with his hands? Sweet! But there is a chance that Gaara could still control the sand albeit much much slower but this doesn't matter because Onoki would be trapped, unable to breakout.
Probably, but once the sand gets petrified and starts dropping it would give Onoki an opening to fly out of reach. Though I don't think this would work against wide AOE sand. It should be useful against small scale sand, if it ever comes to that.
 
Last edited:

Beans2

Active member
Elite
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
8,937
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Damn, this thread topic is interesting because I really think these two characters are near equal in strength. Still in te process of reading it but i have questions about these two things:

This means that if Onoki or his clones lay a hand on Gaara's sand that he is flying on, Gaara himself gets weighed down which spells his end considering his heart won't be able to pump that massive blood around. Not only that but Gaara can't stand upright and will fall down flat thus being unable to continue fighting
What proof of there is this? Onoki did not make his statement in reference for the single use of his jutsu. He lightened the desert dust earlier which lightened nearby sand landscape extending at least to Madara's location since the sand underneath his Susanoo was lightened. When Onoki lightened turtle island, the animals and people on the island didn't get lightened.

Contrary to popular belief, Onoki's chakra reserves are pretty good. Onoki used jinton once and then used it a few more times afterwards off panel (bottom panel). Afterwards, Onoki used six rock clones which ended up getting destroyed off panel. After running out of chakra to use jinton, Onoki used rock fist combined with weighted rock technique. Finally Onoki ended up making the first meteor Madara summoned light enough for him to carry (1)(2). Also it is important to note that Onoki doesn't have to maintain weighted or lightened rock technique because he can remove/increase the target's weight and no longer has to be in contact with them.
Let's not forget, Onoki created three rock golems against Madara.
 

Apêx1

Active member
Elite
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
6,929
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Damn this is pretty good. I saw the thread but it was so close and I have such little knowledge on the individual characters in comparison to people like Proof that I didn't even bother debating it. I disagree with your points regarding Onoki vs Gaara outside of a Desert though, you're really underrating Gaara there.
 

blazekev90

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
11,741
Kin
5💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I don't think the weighed sand argument would hold. Precisely, the reason Onoki was able to lighten Garra's sand held within the gourd was because that sand is FULLY fused with his chakra. Hence, I believe Onoki lighten the chakra mass (if that's possible), not the sand itself. Onoki has weighted/lightened chakra before, Madara's susnaoo to be exact, which are nothing but chakra.

Now, if chakra is what intertwines these sand particles, no?

As we know, the sand Garra creates, isn't fully fused, as least according to Deidara. Therefore, coming in contact inferior sand (if that's what we'd call) wouldn't be very effective, seeing as only the small portion targeted would be effected. In return, he'll only create more within an instant.

This is something Garra could use to his advantage. Simply predict the only strategy Onoki has in his favor. Garra only has to himself from direct/near contact with Onoki.
 

Haizaki

Active member
Elite
Joined
May 4, 2013
Messages
6,233
Kin
0💸
Kumi
2,500💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I just skimmed through it. Also I think you should add, that if Onoki ever gets in a bind (doubtful) he can petrify and extremely increase the weight causing the sand around to drop from his body. Good thread Ice.
Exactly! Same thing I said to Proof.
 

Apêx1

Active member
Elite
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
6,929
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I just skimmed through it. Also I think you should add, that if Onoki ever gets in a bind (doubtful) he can petrify and extremely increase the weight causing the sand around to drop from his body. Good thread Ice.
Onoki ultra-weighting himself would result in his death given Gaara can take advantage of his back problems after its usage

In that scan he increased the weight of the Zetsu itself and if he tried that against the sand while standing straight the sand's weight would affect him too. Also, let's take note of the amount of sand Gaara can control with ease


Yea.. Increasing the weight of the sand isn't going to really mean much here, it's not dropping like that Zetsu did, and even if it does, assuming it's above Onoki's shoulder/head he'll be crushing himself..
 

DrProof

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
12,019
Kin
0💸
Kumi
9💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
Are you going to reuse the points from your opener? Just make sure I can properly quote you so don't go too hardcore on the formatting.
Ima just leave this here incase people want to read what you're initially attempting to counter. And I might reformat it. It wouldn't take long or anything.

 

Izanamı.

Active member
Regular
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
1,724
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
Exactly! Same thing I said to Proof.
Your post reminded me of this ability. It's extremely useful because, even if Onoki can't physically escape at a moment's notice, he can still mentally react, increase the weight around and get away before the sand reforms.


Onoki ultra-weighting himself would result in his death given Gaara can take advantage of his back problems after its usage

In that scan he increased the weight of the Zetsu itself and if he tried that against the sand while standing straight the sand's weight would affect him too. Also, let's take note of the amount of sand Gaara can control with ease


Yea.. Increasing the weight of the sand isn't going to really mean much here, it's not dropping like that Zetsu did, and even if it does, assuming it's above Onoki's shoulder/head he'll be crushing himself..
I didn't take in account Onoki's back pain because it usually is restricted in VS threads, and I like to use healthy versions of characters in match ups. Either way, Onoki isn't rising the gravity level on his own body, but increasing the weight of the surrounding material that encases his body.

In the page shown above, there is still residual material from the Zetsu attached to Onoki's body, which were connected to the big chunks that were falling and crumbling apart. Since the big chunks were connected to Onoki's body, this would have affected Onoki by pulling his body along with the petrified mass towards the floor, yet nothing of this sort happened. As shown by the small rock fragments in that instance, the Zetsu body was petrified, crumbled apart, and fell on the floor without affecting Onoki’s position even though the the largest chunks still had a connection to Onoki’s body through some of Zetsu’s body residual material. This showcases that the weighted mass didn’t affect and pull his body towards the floor, despite there still was a connection to the largest petrified rocky chunks and his body. Similarly the sand would first petrify, then crumble apart in rocky chunks and fall around the area with no effect on Onoki. There is a misconception that Onoki only increased the weight of the surrounding material in that instance. The material not only undergoes petrification, but also starts to crumble apart shown by the rocky fragments in the surrounding area with no effect on Onoki, as seen in the scan where the weightened mass didn’t affect him by pulling his body. There is no reason for the sand to be affected any differently, despite Onoki not standing upside down, because the sand would crumble apart around the vicinity.
 

Apêx1

Active member
Elite
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
6,929
Kin
0💸
Kumi
0💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I didn't take in account Onoki's back pain because it usually is restricted in VS threads, and I like to use healthy versions of characters in match ups. Either way, Onoki isn't rising the gravity level on his own body, but increasing the weight of the surrounding material that encases his body.
Lel, I misread your original post, I thought it said Onoki is ultra weighting himself. I'll concede here.

In the page shown above, there is still residual material from the Zetsu attached to Onoki's body, which were connected to the big chunks that were falling and crumbling apart. Since the big chunks were connected to Onoki's body, this would have affected Onoki by pulling his body along with the petrified mass towards the floor, yet nothing of this sort happened. As shown by the small rock fragments in that instance, the Zetsu body was petrified, crumbled apart, and fell on the floor without affecting Onoki’s position even though the the largest chunks still had a connection to Onoki’s body through some of Zetsu’s body residual material. This showcases that the weighted mass didn’t affect and pull his body towards the floor, despite there still was a connection to the largest petrified rocky chunks and his body. Similarly the sand would first petrify, then crumble apart in rocky chunks and fall around the area with no effect on Onoki. There is a misconception that Onoki only increased the weight of the surrounding material in that instance. The material not only undergoes petrification, but also starts to crumble apart shown by the rocky fragments in the surrounding area with no effect on Onoki, as seen in the scan where the weightened mass didn’t affect him by pulling his body. There is no reason for the sand to be affected any differently, despite Onoki not standing upside down, because the sand would crumble apart around the vicinity.
I can't possibly see how it would touch him since he was upside down [ ]. If this was done while Onoki was standing straight then you'd have a point, but there's no way something on his shoulder would drop straight down and hit his head, that makes no sense. You clearly misunderstood what I was saying, I clearly say "he increased the weight of the Zetsu itself" so I don't know why you are arguing I am claiming Onoki would ultra weight himself there.

Then there's this: "Similarly the sand would first petrify, then crumble apart in rocky chunks and fall around the area with no effect on Onoki. There is a misconception that Onoki only increased the weight of the surrounding material in that instance. The material not only undergoes petrification, but also starts to crumble apart shown by the rocky fragments in the surrounding area with no effect on Onoki, as seen in the scan where the weightened mass didn’t affect him by pulling his body. There is no reason for the sand to be affected any differently, despite Onoki not standing upside down, because the sand would crumble apart around the vicinity."

I don't even know what you're referring to here, so please clarify which portion of my argument you are talking about.
 

Haizaki

Active member
Elite
Joined
May 4, 2013
Messages
6,233
Kin
0💸
Kumi
2,500💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Your post reminded me of this ability. It's extremely useful because, even if Onoki can't physically escape at a moment's notice, he can still mentally react, increase the weight around and get away before the sand reforms.
Yupp I thought it was a fine counter to Gaara. Also, Onoki's back problem shouldn't be an issue as it never kicked in when he fought Madara who's a much stronger opponent.
 
Top