[VS] Adult Sasuke VS VOTE2 Sasuke

[Apêx1]

It does matter, man. I never stated that he didn't have it. I even posted the link where he did. Besides, the cloak wouldn't be a determinant factor in Susano'o climbing tiers, so I don't see how it is of any importance here. Fact remains, when he was smashed down, and before it, he didn't have it then.

Why would it get raped? This is a erroneous claim to make when you do not have much to back it up with other than an assumption that just because BM avatar tanked it, V3 stabilized doesn't have a chance, when we are talking about an EMS V3 here and not an MS one. The susano'o foundation? Come on! If the cloak is gone, how is Bijuu chakra boosting it in any manner?

Spoiler

Cloak:

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No cloak:

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Sasuke and Jugo, both of them, do not have their cloaks on. How was it boosting its power then? The cloak only boosts ninjutsu as long as it's on.

V3 Sasuke used was made through EMS, so, it's safe to assume that it went through some augmentation?

The difference in sizes is immense:

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It isn't much taller than Sasuke, to be honest:

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Look at it in EMS. You can barely see Sasuke and it's inside its head:

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Now, I fully agree that the tech would execute more power as long as the cloak is on. But once it's gone, then it makes no sense for it to still function on the same footing. Also, EMS produces bigger and sturdier structures, which is why all of Madara's Susano'os are bigger than Sasuke's MS versions:

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So, it's safe to assume that EMS augments the Ninjutsu, since achieving legs and plating means that one is that much closer to PS?

V4 went through clear augmentation: it had clear plating on the arms, giving it a sturdier structure:

Spoiler

EMS V4 straight away pulls a small Enton sword:

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There is a solid bow formation on the side as well:

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Now look at the MS one - no plating and nothing other than one Enton ember. It has much more resemblance to Itachi's MS Susano'o as well:

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You are grasping at straws here man. I clearly said that the formation of Susano was done with the Kyuubi cloak and Sasuke's chakra. So the Susano which Sasuke was utilising was powered-up by the Kyuubi cloak, even if the Kyuubi shroud disappeared AFTER the Susano ahd already been formed with the chakra. The cloak WOULD be a large boost. Btw it seems to me like the Kyuubi cloak wasn't shown because Kishi was being lazy not drawing it. You can clearly see it a page before it apparently 'disappears'

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and then on the bottom left of this page

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you will see that there's a kyuubi cloak around Sasuke given the markings in both panels. Anyways, a cloak does not need to be in effect to boost a Susano. The user is not continuously recreating that construct, it's created once and that chakra will remain there until it is destroyed or the user decides he longer needs/wants it. It's a manifestation of chakra. If it was done before the Kyuubi shroud finished then Sasuke would've manifested the Kyuubi AND his chakra. The shroud's presence is not relevant once this manifestation has occurred because the Susano will not lose the chakra that the Kyuubi's shroud granted it while active, PERIOD. The EMS obviously boosted the Susano's tremendously, but not even close enough to warrant v3 being comparable to BM (or BSM) without enhancement. Not going to argue this particular topic again, it's bright as day and you're denying it with flawed logic.

No, that is an EMS tech, not an MS one. Why can't it be as sturdy as BM? This claim makes no sense to me. Without any evidence that it cannot be, you are simply believing on a forum established logic. It cannot tank a laser, just because, is not an argumentation. Nor is the idea that it being as sturdy as BM on just because basis. You have to produce something here to provide basis for this claim.

The cloak is gone as I proved. What is boosting its power then? Also, why does a PS fall short of BSM? What are you exactly basing this on when the manga has shown PS to act as an armour for BM, always?

The burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely no way of proving such a far fetched, non-canonically supported claim. PS is portrayed to be equal to BM/BSM at VOTE2, end of.

Cloak is not gone if you look closely at the panels I suggested, but I already know you're going to say that it isn't a Kyuubi cloak so why am I even trying here. But good thing you can't prove that the loss of the Kyuubi cloak would result to the loss of the Kyuubi's chakra that was already manifested into a construct - since it doesn't work that way. I'm still thinking about PS and BSM's/BM's relationship in strength.

 

[shelke]

Spoiler

You are grasping at straws here man. I clearly said that the formation of Susano was done with the Kyuubi cloak and Sasuke's chakra. So the Susano which Sasuke was utilising was powered-up by the Kyuubi cloak, even if the Kyuubi shroud disappeared AFTER the Susano ahd already been formed with the chakra. The cloak WOULD be a large boost. Btw it seems to me like the Kyuubi cloak wasn't shown because Kishi was being lazy not drawing it. You can clearly see it a page before it apparently 'disappears'

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and then on the bottom left of this page

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you will see that there's a kyuubi cloak around Sasuke given the markings in both panels. Anyways, a cloak does not need to be in effect to boost a Susano. The user is not continuously recreating that construct, it's created once and that chakra will remain there until it is destroyed or the user decides he longer needs/wants it. It's a manifestation of chakra. If it was done before the Kyuubi shroud finished then Sasuke would've manifested the Kyuubi AND his chakra. The shroud's presence is not relevant once this manifestation has occurred because the Susano will not lose the chakra that the Kyuubi's shroud granted it while active, PERIOD. The EMS obviously boosted the Susano's tremendously, but not even close enough to warrant v3 being comparable to BM (or BSM) without enhancement. Not going to argue this particular topic again, it's bright as day and you're denying it with flawed logic.

All right, let's go with your side of the argument for a while. Fact remains, that when the cloak disappeared, everyone's ninjutsu went back to normal. I am going to take few examples from K-11 only:

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The shinobi alliance with the cloak:

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Yet, when it went down, this happened:

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:

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Ino’s tech became faster and much stronger. It reached Obito and stopped the hand faster than Naruto in BM to make it to Chouji :

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The given cloak can be dense or thin – it is not always the same.

It is clear from these scans that the Ninjutsu's power only remains if as long as the cloak is up. Without the cloak, every jutsu loses its potency. To assume that V3 S would have stayed up is a false claim when it didn't happen for every single ninja. To single Sasuke out, well, even you apply a probable factor here, then it would be zero, since the opposite happened for every shinobi.

As for the chakra cloak disappearing and it being a mistake, then there is a simple explanation to it:

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First of all, Naruto literally converted (and shared) his chakra to be fit for use for the ninjas and distributed it amongst the alliance:

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Did he do the same for Sasuke? According to him, he simply split it for Teleportation:

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The cloak also appears on its own. How?

The chakra cloak resurfaces whenever the main body manipulates the chakra, the shared chakra resonates with it and the cloak appears:

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As soon as the chakra starts resonating, what happens?

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Jugo and Sasuke’s cloak never came back:

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Everyone’s cloak came back after Naruto manipulated the chakra:

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Everyone’s cloak was back. Why not Sasuke’s?

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Even now Sasuke has no cloak, when the entire alliance does. How can it be just a mistake then? So, according to you, Kishimoto is making a mistake constantly, when he could have easily rectified his error the second, or even the third time? I am not buying this mistake argument. Heck, even a dead shinobi’s cloak was still working as long as the main cloak from Naruto was putting out his chakra:

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It was not until the connection completely got severed from the main body that the cloak completely disappear:

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The chakra never completely vanishes either, which is why Shikamaru knew something went wrong:

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From the looks of it, it really is a fact that Naruto only gave Sasuke enough chakra to teleport. It never became a part of his system, which is why it disappeared shortly after Teleportation and never came back on even when he manipulated the chakra regularly to maintain cloak - meaning, chakra resonance regularly occurred, like in Kage Bunshins as Tobirama explained. You will have to prove to me otherwise.

Since it is directly connected to Ninjutsu, and as it disappeared, it having any affect on its strength and durability is a reaching argument, when the manga shows otherwise. V3 Susano’o, had it been achieved because of Kurama’s cloak, would have gone down the second the cloak vanished. Just like how no one could perform Ninjutsu at that level without the cloak.

On which basis are you suggesting that that V3 was because of the cloak? When 1) without the cloak, it should have vanished there and then and 2) he forgot to draw it isn’t even an argument when he had plenty of time to rethink his mistake and rectify it.

So, I disagree.

The burden of proof is on you, and you have absolutely no way of proving such a far fetched, non-canonically supported claim. PS is portrayed to be equal to BM/BSM at VOTE2, end of.

“End of” is not an argument, nor a proof; it's a mere claim. Let’s use some simply logic then for Vote II Avatars, as going with technical language even PS is one:

Perfect Susano’o is shown to be equal to BM avatar powered by Sage’s Senjutsu, plus the RSM and 9 Bijuu powered cloak: PS = Avatar + RSM (+ 9 Bijuus) Cloak. As Sasuke hardly has any cloak on to hinder any damage on his body. Yet when the final blast took out both the avatars, Sasuke's body wasn't exactly obliterated despite Naruto's special cloak providing extra protection. Where does it put that BSM then? Yeah, below PS as it was able to provide the extra protection the cloak provides for Naruto.

Even on this account, they cannot be on the same scale. Similarly, PS has always shielded Kurama, whether in Avatar form or otherwise. Even the new movie suggests the same. How can you ignore 3 different, key canon incidents and claim it's a false claim? Also, I don’t buy this BSM (pre Sage of the Six Paths Sage Mode) being 10 x more powerful, or whatever nonsense this base believes in. It has no merit in the manga.

Cloak is not gone if you look closely at the panels I suggested, but I already know you're going to say that it isn't a Kyuubi cloak so why am I even trying here. But good thing you can't prove that the loss of the Kyuubi cloak would result to the loss of the Kyuubi's chakra that was already manifested into a construct - since it doesn't work that way. I'm still thinking about PS and BSM's/BM's relationship in strength.

I think I have explained this above sufficiently.