[Discussion] Marineford power levels

TRE MERCER · Aug 10, 2015

Poor man logic by Vanderiech honestly.

-Akuma- · Aug 10, 2015

Cσɓŗą said:
Completely materializing is not necessary, he could only materialize the limb of which he's using and either way akainu has never shown feats of reacting to anyone at kizaru's speed or even close. Rayleigh was being overwhelmed by kizaru, that's not really the right analogy to use here. And yeah it does, it proves that akainu is not the type to react to stuff or rather use speed to dodge, so the whole argument of akainu being able to dodge attacks of kizaru can now rest in piece as the man is yet to dodge or react anything fast. He didn't even see vista and marco cutting until the damage was already done, it was a blitz but it was useless. WB as an old man was never that fast at striking or moving, his reaction however was good which gives akainu good feats of reaction but it's ultimately nothing challenging for kizaru. I agree, in terms of durability akainu is better, but in terms of haki I truly believe that they're equal, after kizaru took a kick from marco and he instantly got up like nothing happened which is kind of equivalent to akainu tanking their attack, his haki isn't that much since it didn't nullify the pain while kizaru's did.

But my overall point is that they're equal

Again any part of Kizaru that is hitting Akainu has to be materialized meaning that it's not travelling at Light-Speed, Akainu has shown to be able to react to attack from WB and obviously Kuzan aswell who has shown top attack speed. To say a top tier can't keep up with another top tier is ridiculous. Rayleigh wasn't being overwhelmed, he was getting tired due to old age. Again imply a top tier can't react to another top tier's attack is ****ing ridiculous WB still had a decent striking he forced Kuzan to warp his body instead if physically dodging his bento strike. Again him taking a kick from Marco is durability related not haki related.

They are not equal and you seem to be either vastly overrating Kizaru's speed or vastly underrating a top tier's reactions and striking speed.

ToshiZO said:
Kuzan was freezing the water.

And no we all know for the most part it was Kizaru vs Marco, Aokiji vs Jozu and Akainu vs WB. Each of them had brief scuffles with the other but it was Aokiji who got rid of Jozu, it was Kizaru who was shooting beams to weaken Marco when he had on the cuffs, and obviously Akainu and a couple good meetings with Whitebeard.

Again Marco had a scuffle with Kuzan and Akainu aswell which proves nothing, while also Kizaru needed assistance in his fight.

You can deny all you want but those were the most focused on matchups. Now thats 1 Yonkou crew out of the way.

That's not one Yonko crew out of the way, because Marco fought all 3 Admirals plus Kuzan was the only person to win by himself.

In comes the Red Hair Pirates. Now guess what? Once again Akainu is matched up with Shanks the Yonkou crew captain, Kizaru gets Beckman you think Oda is doing this just for fun?

Kizaru and Akainu were the only ones trying to actively kill Luffy once Ace died, if we were to follow this weird logic Lucky Roo should of came and tried to stop Kuzan.

Through 2 Yonkou crews we have Akainu being paired with the Captain and Kizaru being paired with the Second hand man. Whatever circumstances are involved, these matchups hold true. This is clean portrayal.

Again Marco fought everyone.

ToshiZO · Aug 10, 2015

The whole reason I brought up the Sanji, Zoro, Luffy comparison was to show you regardless of the outcome matchups are matchups, and portrayal is portrayal.

Aokiji could low diff said person

Kizaru can high diff said person

Akainu can lose to said person

Even though Aokiji low diffed said person and Kizaru high diffed said person, if the said person Kizaru high diffed is stronger than the person Aokiji fought than the portrayal holds.

Its all about portrayal, NOT the outcome of the fights BECAUSE they are all equals thus obviously if 1 gets an easier opponent than the other the outcome will be easier.

Luffy fights Crocodile (Basically dies 3 times)-------------Akainu fights WB (Suffers most injuries)

Zoro fights Mr.1 (Near death win)-------------------------Kizaru fights Marco (Doesn't manage to beat Marco but suffers no injuries)

Sanji fights Mr.2 (win with some injuries)----------------Aokiji fights Jozu (Beats Jozu pretty quickly)

Now Obviously im just using this as an example, its not the same level of difference, the Admirals are all equal.

There is no doubt about it though, Oda did a Yonkou crew hierarchy and he matched the 3 Admirals accordingly. I already told you the scenario doesn't matter its what Oda intends is what matters, he could have made Kuzan chase after Luffy a few moments earlier to have beckman point his gun at Aokiji but he chose to match him with Kizaru.

How they ended up matching up isn't relevant, its the fact that Oda matched them up which is significant.

giostep · Aug 11, 2015

Whitebeard (prime)=100
Garp (prime)= 100
Shanks= 98
Mihawk= 98
Akainu= 98
Aokiji= 98
Kizaru= 98
Sengoku (prime)= 97
Kaido= 97
Big Mom= 97
Reyleigh (prime)= 96
Whitebeard (old)= 95
Garp (old)= 95
Blackbeard w/ gura = 93
Sengoku (old)= 92
reyliegh (old)= 91
Benn Bekcman= 90
Marco= 88
Doflamingo= 88
Jozu= 87
Vista= 86
Boa Hancock= 86
Jinbe (in water)= 85
Kuma= 85
Ivankov= 84
Crocodile= 80
Luffy= 80
Smoker= 80
Ace= 75
Moriah= 60

I cant see Luffy being soooo much weaker than doffy to put him below an 80, otherwise it just wont make any sense to me. Even in his injured state i think Doffy would have wrecked croc, and moriah, and ace, and smoker. I also dont think that old WB is the bar for 100 if that were true then then all current yonko would need to be closer to 90 and no where in the 95th percentile...
I think that if a character is 5 or more (on my list) points away from a character than its pretty much a sure win for the higher character. By my own logic, all of the major fighters have to be within 5 places of each other. Keep in mind that sure win doesnt mean low diff or high diff, it just means they will win. Example Doffy (88) will more than likely lose to Sengoku (92) but the loss will not be a no diff for Sengoku, and Ace v Smoker, current smoker would probably have an easier fight v ace than doffy v sengoku wven though his score v ace is higher than doffy v sengoku.

meh just realized this is about marine ford. Everyone below ben drops by 5, bb becomes a 90, luffy drops tto about 70 and ace goes up to about 78, moria goes up to like a 75, and croc is about a 79. Dont feel like rearranging my original chart

-Akuma- · Aug 11, 2015

ToshiZO said:
The whole reason I brought up the Sanji, Zoro, Luffy comparison was to show you regardless of the outcome matchups are matchups, and portrayal is portrayal.

Not really in this case

Aokiji could low diff said person

Kizaru can high diff said person

Akainu can lose to said person

Don't think Jozu is getting low-diffed but that's another discussion for another day.

Even though Aokiji low diffed said person and Kizaru high diffed said person, if the said person Kizaru high diffed is stronger than the person Aokiji fought than the portrayal holds.

Again not really because once again Kizaru needed help, that's like if Zoro had Franky's help against Kaku and then someone tried to use that as portrayal to put Zoro above Sanji.

Its all about portrayal, NOT the outcome of the fights BECAUSE they are all equals thus obviously if 1 gets an easier opponent than the other the outcome will be easier.

Luffy fights Crocodile (Basically dies 3 times)-------------Akainu fights WB (Suffers most injuries)

Zoro fights Mr.1 (Near death win)-------------------------Kizaru fights Marco (Doesn't manage to beat Marco but suffers no injuries)

Sanji fights Mr.2 (win with some injuries)----------------Aokiji fights Jozu (Beats Jozu pretty quickly)

Again that is not the case, while you using this doesn't really work. The difference in the M3 varies from arc to arc.

Luffy high-diffed Arlong

Zoro low-med diffed Hachi

Sanji beat the other n**ga on the high end of mid dif.

So again that portrayal doesn't work

Now Obviously im just using this as an example, its not the same level of difference, the Admirals are all equal.

There is no doubt about it though, Oda did a Yonkou crew hierarchy and he matched the 3 Admirals accordingly. I already told you the scenario doesn't matter its what Oda intends is what matters, he could have made Kuzan chase after Luffy a few moments earlier to have beckman point his gun at Aokiji but he chose to match him with Kizaru.

How they ended up matching up isn't relevant, its the fact that Oda matched them up which is significant.

The Yonko crew hierarchy isn't valid when Marco fights everyone and Kizaru needs assistance against his opponent. If anything Akainu and Kuzan ebbing chose for Fleet Admiral could be used as portrayal to show they were the stronger Admirals.

ToshiZO · Aug 11, 2015

lol you dont get it. Marco was matched up with Kizaru. Zoro needed help against Pica, was that not his own battle?

Also Arlong park was a horrible example, as there were massive handicaps.

I already said matchups are matchups regardless of outcome and how they got there.

Also yes Kuzan and Akainu being chosen for FA is great portrayal as well, BUT that had more to do with their personality (Sengoku choosing a calm leader, Gorosei choosing radical leader). This is why I said Kizaru = Akainu = Kuzan.

Its a vague topic, so I expected vague replies but the point remains Kizaru has not a single reason to be ranked below Kuzan and Akainu in terms of strength.

Vandenre1ch · Aug 11, 2015

ToshiZO said:
Whats wrong with him being introduced as the Worlds Strongest Man? Since at one point he was and until you fight him for it and beat him his title remains.

A title is only truly valid if it is being tested. The test was the War and Oda clearly showed Wb was no longer the man who had received that title.

In a 1v1 WB doesn't even have a 5% chance to take down the likes of Akainu. And I'll explain why.
This is to everyone else as well who thinks WB could have beaten Shanks, Akainu, or the other Admirals.

1. Many people bring up the stab wound he got as the reason he was so weakened BUT its the very fact that someone of that caliber could give WB that stab wound is what makes him weak. Crocodile said
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Marco immediately
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. Notice two things with Marco's statement. People always complain about Squards attack being a cheapshot but Oda doesn't allow that to be used as an excuse, the other thing look at the emphasis on the life support WB was on. WB had to be under constant medical care on his ship as soon as he takes those off his health is in jeopardy

2. Whitebeard not once could damage an Admiral during the war (with an exception I'll get into later). VS
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/ VS
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/ VS
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Not once was he shown superior to an Admiral.

It took Ace's death AND a complete
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for WB to damage an Admiral and despite all this Akainu took half his head arguably dealing just as much lasting damage as he received from WB. WB had to be in Rage mode AND needed a cheapshot.

3. WB could not handle battling a top tier for too long at his condition. This is the most important one and it absolutely can't be argued.

In the middle of his battle with Akainu WB suffers a
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notice what Akainu says (once again Oda letting us know his era is over).

This is what Marco had to
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once again building up from his thoughts last time when he got stabbed. Meaning Marco clearly knew WB would eventually succumb to this whilst fighting.

NOW WB is wiiide open for an
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against a top tier, this was in a way plot shield Akainu could have gone for the head if he wanted but that wouldn't work for the plot.

Here is more
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, Sengoku is telling fodders to attack WB and even they are able to damage him, IMAGINE what Akainu could have done during this time ATLEAST one more magma punch could have been givin to WB during this time.

SO whether or not you think Akainu could have ended WB then and there, WB even if he would have survived would have been in a downward struggle losing battle as he already has massive damage taken while Akainu has nothing.

There is no way in hell WB could have taken on any one on Akainu's level with his ongoing problems, do you realize how long top tiers can fight against each other
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? You think WB wouldn't suffer some sort of health related issue during a battle with Shanks or Akainu/other Admirals? That is a joke if I've ever heard one.

Like I said WB Cannot beat Shanks, Akainu, Kizaru or Kuzan at that stage of the story. Its right there smack dab for us to take in but most of you can't get past the title and see what Oda was trying to show with the whole Start of a new Era parallel.

@Jiraiya Lives
Yea I was gonna write those two things out as well but they arent as solid (especially the order of appearance), well aware of those, nice catch.

Thanks for clarifying. When I hear people say WB was the weakest yonkou due to his health, they ALWAYS use that to say Yonkou>>Admirals and that Prime would wreck everyone as the "Sick WB almost killed Akainu." When people say WB was the weakest, I immediately get hostile assuming that's what they are planning....

ultraChalk · Aug 11, 2015

ToshiZO said:
Whats wrong with him being introduced as the Worlds Strongest Man? Since at one point he was and until you fight him for it and beat him his title remains.

A title is only truly valid if it is being tested. The test was the War and Oda clearly showed Wb was no longer the man who had received that title.

In a 1v1 WB doesn't even have a 5% chance to take down the likes of Akainu. And I'll explain why.
This is to everyone else as well who thinks WB could have beaten Shanks, Akainu, or the other Admirals.

1. Many people bring up the stab wound he got as the reason he was so weakened BUT its the very fact that someone of that caliber could give WB that stab wound is what makes him weak. Crocodile said
You must be registered for see links

Marco immediately
You must be registered for see links
. Notice two things with Marco's statement. People always complain about Squards attack being a cheapshot but Oda doesn't allow that to be used as an excuse, the other thing look at the emphasis on the life support WB was on. WB had to be under constant medical care on his ship as soon as he takes those off his health is in jeopardy

2. Whitebeard not once could damage an Admiral during the war (with an exception I'll get into later). VS
You must be registered for see links
/ VS
You must be registered for see links
/ VS
You must be registered for see links

Not once was he shown superior to an Admiral.

It took Ace's death AND a complete
You must be registered for see links
for WB to damage an Admiral and despite all this Akainu took half his head arguably dealing just as much lasting damage as he received from WB. WB had to be in Rage mode AND needed a cheapshot.

3. WB could not handle battling a top tier for too long at his condition. This is the most important one and it absolutely can't be argued.

In the middle of his battle with Akainu WB suffers a
You must be registered for see links
notice what Akainu says (once again Oda letting us know his era is over).

This is what Marco had to
You must be registered for see links
once again building up from his thoughts last time when he got stabbed. Meaning Marco clearly knew WB would eventually succumb to this whilst fighting.

NOW WB is wiiide open for an
You must be registered for see links
against a top tier, this was in a way plot shield Akainu could have gone for the head if he wanted but that wouldn't work for the plot.

Here is more
You must be registered for see links
, Sengoku is telling fodders to attack WB and even they are able to damage him, IMAGINE what Akainu could have done during this time ATLEAST one more magma punch could have been givin to WB during this time.

SO whether or not you think Akainu could have ended WB then and there, WB even if he would have survived would have been in a downward struggle losing battle as he already has massive damage taken while Akainu has nothing.

There is no way in hell WB could have taken on any one on Akainu's level with his ongoing problems, do you realize how long top tiers can fight against each other
You must be registered for see links
? You think WB wouldn't suffer some sort of health related issue during a battle with Shanks or Akainu/other Admirals? That is a joke if I've ever heard one.

Like I said WB Cannot beat Shanks, Akainu, Kizaru or Kuzan at that stage of the story. Its right there smack dab for us to take in but most of you can't get past the title and see what Oda was trying to show with the whole Start of a new Era parallel.

@Jiraiya Lives
Yea I was gonna write those two things out as well but they arent as solid (especially the order of appearance), well aware of those, nice catch.

winner winner chicken dinner

Black Mamba · Aug 11, 2015

ToshiZO said:
Whats wrong with him being introduced as the Worlds Strongest Man? Since at one point he was and until you fight him for it and beat him his title remains.

A title is only truly valid if it is being tested. The test was the War and Oda clearly showed Wb was no longer the man who had received that title.

In a 1v1 WB doesn't even have a 5% chance to take down the likes of Akainu. And I'll explain why.
This is to everyone else as well who thinks WB could have beaten Shanks, Akainu, or the other Admirals.

1. Many people bring up the stab wound he got as the reason he was so weakened BUT its the very fact that someone of that caliber could give WB that stab wound is what makes him weak. Crocodile said
You must be registered for see links

Marco immediately
You must be registered for see links
. Notice two things with Marco's statement. People always complain about Squards attack being a cheapshot but Oda doesn't allow that to be used as an excuse, the other thing look at the emphasis on the life support WB was on. WB had to be under constant medical care on his ship as soon as he takes those off his health is in jeopardy

2. Whitebeard not once could damage an Admiral during the war (with an exception I'll get into later). VS
You must be registered for see links
/ VS
You must be registered for see links
/ VS
You must be registered for see links

Not once was he shown superior to an Admiral.

It took Ace's death AND a complete
You must be registered for see links
for WB to damage an Admiral and despite all this Akainu took half his head arguably dealing just as much lasting damage as he received from WB. WB had to be in Rage mode AND needed a cheapshot.

3. WB could not handle battling a top tier for too long at his condition. This is the most important one and it absolutely can't be argued.

In the middle of his battle with Akainu WB suffers a
You must be registered for see links
notice what Akainu says (once again Oda letting us know his era is over).

This is what Marco had to
You must be registered for see links
once again building up from his thoughts last time when he got stabbed. Meaning Marco clearly knew WB would eventually succumb to this whilst fighting.

NOW WB is wiiide open for an
You must be registered for see links
against a top tier, this was in a way plot shield Akainu could have gone for the head if he wanted but that wouldn't work for the plot.

Here is more
You must be registered for see links
, Sengoku is telling fodders to attack WB and even they are able to damage him, IMAGINE what Akainu could have done during this time ATLEAST one more magma punch could have been givin to WB during this time.

SO whether or not you think Akainu could have ended WB then and there, WB even if he would have survived would have been in a downward struggle losing battle as he already has massive damage taken while Akainu has nothing.

There is no way in hell WB could have taken on any one on Akainu's level with his ongoing problems, do you realize how long top tiers can fight against each other
You must be registered for see links
? You think WB wouldn't suffer some sort of health related issue during a battle with Shanks or Akainu/other Admirals? That is a joke if I've ever heard one.

Like I said WB Cannot beat Shanks, Akainu, Kizaru or Kuzan at that stage of the story. Its right there smack dab for us to take in but most of you can't get past the title and see what Oda was trying to show with the whole Start of a new Era parallel.

@Jiraiya Lives
Yea I was gonna write those two things out as well but they arent as solid (especially the order of appearance), well aware of those, nice catch.

Nope, Shanks can beat old WB 1v1, but the admirals cannot

1. Yes Squard stabbing WB was a plot device to weaken him even more. I agree with you his old age has made him weaker than he was, and the admirals probably would have dodged that. But this doesn't show how the admirals beat him in a 1v1 fight when WB is fully focusing on them.

2. So you say WB's attacks was a cheapshot huh? let me quote something you said, "People always complain about Squards attack being a cheapshot but Oda doesn't allow that to be used as an excuse", yet you're using it as an excuse now? lost you're credibility never lose you're credibility

Fact is old WB with massive injuries was able to blitz Akainu, you're telling me WB without injuries wouldn't be able to do the same thing? It only took 2 hits to put down Akainu, a lot of people say he didn't lose because he came back after taking his sweet time to recover. No in a 1v1 fight that counts as an L, if it's a 1v1 deathmatch WB could just easily hit him a couple more times till he's dead.

Look at all the scans you posted and take in after taking all those hits he was still able to beat an admiral low diff.

3. Heartattack, getting stabbed by comrade and whatever else health related were all plot shield's for the navy. It's canon that it takes 2 hits to put down Akainu who is probably the most durable admiral, so his health isn't even a issue because fight isn't lasting long.

Old WB with heavy injuries > 100% Akainu

Admirals cannot beat WB 1v1, at the stage in the story

sandyjoe · Aug 11, 2015

You are delusional every admiral, garp, and Mihawk could have beaten old wb At marineford. He traded a few blows with Akainu and lost his dam face, while Akainu got a few scratches.

ToshiZO · Aug 11, 2015

Black Mamba said:
Nope, Shanks can beat old WB 1v1, but the admirals cannot

1. Yes Squard stabbing WB was a plot device to weaken him even more. I agree with you his old age has made him weaker than he was, and the admirals probably would have dodged that. But this doesn't show how the admirals beat him in a 1v1 fight when WB is fully focusing on them.

Lol so you just admitted it shows WB is weaker than them. They wouldn't fall for it you realize they have observation haki of the highest caliber? Squard isnt fast enough to capitalize on the Admirals.

2. So you say WB's attacks was a cheapshot huh? let me quote something you said, "People always complain about Squards attack being a cheapshot but Oda doesn't allow that to be used as an excuse", yet you're using it as an excuse now? lost you're credibility never lose you're credibility

haha Why did I know someone was gonna bring this up? Listen WB is a top tier, when given even the slightest advantage in a fight top tiers can capitalize on it, like I said Oda himself didn't allow Sqards attack to be used as an excuse, because it isn't a top tier, he should not get hit with that attack plain and simple.

This is what can happen if you give a top tier an